Reiss: Lack of pressure hurts defense

[mfaith]

I have been begging BB to draft a pass rush demon for the past three years. We deserately need someone to come in on third and long and change the way opposing offenses pass block.

We don't have that type pass rusher on our team.

What I think Reiss is trying to say is that without a decent pass rush, the secondary has to play a soft zone defense, which is vulnerable underneath.

Great point. BB brought in TBC and Burgess to fill that role. TBC has played well but Burgess is a waste of a roster spot. Although I like TBC I don't think he exactly puts fear into the hearts of opposing OCs.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

You love going nuts after losses huh. Again. Tom Brady hits a wide open Moss and Welker and we're talking about yet again how the defense saved the O's ass. Not doing jack **** for 3 freaking quarters is a goddamn joke. The offense, Brady inparticular, needs to pull its head out of its ass.

If it weren't for the fateful 3rd and longs and the two 90+ yard drives, I would fully blame the O.

Perhaps we just got outdone by one of our own?

 

[The_Riddler]

Gee Mike, Ya think ?

 

[Ring 6]

First, I think there will be plenty of people who can tell you that I'm one of the most level headed people on this forum after a loss. You want proof?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...up-against-good-o-lines-other-game-obser.html

Second, I would not be one of those people. Anybody who isn't blind could see that Denver shot itself in the foot plenty of times. 17 points or not, two 90 yard drives and an 80 yard drive to end the game are piss poor and a better offense would definitely capitalize on all the opportunities we afforded the Broncos.

Third, I've never said that the offense played great. I've said time and time again that the offense left 7-14 points out on the field. However, the biggest catalyst for the loss is definitely the defense.

Not to be argumentative, but I don't think its a matter of shooting themselves in the foot. I think its a matter of playing a style of defense that requires them to be precise and execute a tedious gameplan all the way down the field. I think the norm is that somewhere on the drive they fail (your phrase is shooting themselves in the foot) and the exception is that they can sustain the drive.
The 4 scoring drives were 10,11,12,12 plays long.
The 3 regulation drives were aided by roughing the passer, the Gaffeny catch after 4 tips, the Meriwhether phantom taunt, and 2 consecutive holding calls that were offset by us shooting ourselves in the foot with 12men and defensive holding.

I have always felt that if you hold the other team to 17 or less, you should win almost every time.
I can see your point, but we cant fault the first half defense right? So in the second half they allowed 2 scores, and all we had to do on offense was put up a point, and we win. The defense is always to blame for the points they allow in a loss, but the blame should be contingnent on how many, right?

 

[Deus Irae]

The defense isn't the issue this season, it's not like they are giving up 30 points per game.

Anyone who thinks this defense is getting the job done and it's all on the offense is either not watching the games or fooling himself.

 

[supafly]

Anyone who thinks this defense is getting the job done and it's all on the offense is either not watching the games or fooling himself.

Very much agreed. The passing D is on pace to give up over 20 TD's this yr, Sanchez and Orton both ripped the secondary up for 150 yd half game performances. Even Flacco ripped the secondary up on a couple drives, the first and last. The rush defense seems to be missing a lot of tackles, making arguable penalties, and is getting pass picked apart underneath, and in the middle. The pass rush is almost invisible at times, giving these QB's plenty of time for targets.

Although the offense gave up 2 TD's, 4 out of 5 games were totals of 24,23,21, and 20. While it has looked OK, it certainly is part of the overall problem.

EDIT: when factoring in those 2 offensive TD's, the scores look to be the following :

17, 23, 14, 20--certainly not bad, but certainly room to improve too

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Very much agreed. The passing D is on pace to give up over 20 TD's this yr, Sanchez and Orton both ripped the secondary up for 150 yd half game performances. Even Flacco ripped the secondary up on a couple drives, the first and last. The rush defense seems to be missing a lot of tackles, making arguable penalties, and is getting pass picked apart underneath, and in the middle. The pass rush is almost invisible at times, giving these QB's plenty of time for targets.

Although the offense gave up 2 TD's, 4 out of 5 games were totals of 24,23,21, and 20. While it has looked OK, it certainly is part of the overall problem.

EDIT: when factoring in those 2 offensive TD's, the scores look to be the following :

17, 23, 14, 20--certainly not bad, but certainly room to improve too

Ummm I hate to pee on your despair but the 20TD observation is about the dumbest point I have ever heard.

Do you realize it but the Pats defense is on pace to give up zero rushing TD's this year?

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I hope you are making this point to deflect attention away from kontradiction's idiotic "424 yard" rants.

 

[BionicPatriot]

Ummm I hate to pee on your despair but the 20TD observation is about the dumbest point I have ever heard.

Do you realize it but the Pats defense is on pace to give up zero rushing TD's this year?

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I hope you are making this point to deflect attention away from kontradiction's idiotic "424 yard" rants.

But it's fun to blame the defense!

Anyone who thinks this defense is getting the job done and it's all on the offense is either not watching the games or fooling himself.
Today 07:02 PM

They're getting it done. This was the only game an offense marched up and down all day. They stopped Baltimore and everyone else pretty much. As others pointed out, there were plenty of dumb penalties that shot us in the foot. Can the defense improve? Yes, absolutely. Are they good enough? No, you're right. They need work. But it's definently possible. They look better than a year ago no question. It'll be interesting to see how they're doing late in the season.

 

[Peachhead]

I wonder if the emphasis on the 4-3 this season is playing a part in it? (not exclusively but we are playing much more than in the past)

Now that Mayo is back perhaps we can play much more 3-4. Mayo and Guyton/Seau in the middle. AT and Burgess at OLB. I'll bet large (for LBs but quicker than DEs) lined up wide and going from a standing start will apply more pressure. For the most part leave coverage of RBs and TEs to the ILBs and Safeties. Mayo can go sideline-to-sideline like no one's business and Guyton is no slouch in short coverage either.

 

[BionicPatriot]

First, I think there will be plenty of people who can tell you that I'm one of the most level headed people on this forum after a loss. You want proof?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...up-against-good-o-lines-other-game-obser.html

Second, I would not be one of those people. Anybody who isn't blind could see that Denver shot itself in the foot plenty of times. 17 points or not, two 90 yard drives and an 80 yard drive to end the game are piss poor and a better offense would definitely capitalize on all the opportunities we afforded the Broncos.

Third, I've never said that the offense played great. I've said time and time again that the offense left 7-14 points out on the field. However, the biggest catalyst for the loss is definitely the defense.

I see you running around here beating your chest about being level headed, yet after both losses this season you were most active AFTER a loss. Instead of discussing things, you would rather blame the defense. The defense is the catalyst of the loss? Right. When you hold someone to 17 points, and your tied going into OT but your QB had 2 WIDE OPEN shots, that's on him.

Would you be *****ing about the D if they had won? I doubt it, not to this extent. Again, the defense needs work. The pass rush is weak. But I think it's too early to say they don't and won't get a pass rush this year. Instead of freaking out, think about **** first.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I wonder if the emphasis on the 4-3 this season is playing a part in it? (not exclusively but we are playing much more than in the past)

Now that Mayo is back perhaps we can play much more 3-4. Mayo and Guyton/Seau in the middle. AT and Burgess at OLB. I'll bet large (for LBs but quicker than DEs) lined up wide and going from a standing start will apply more pressure. For the most part leave coverage of RBs and TEs to the ILBs and Safeties. Mayo can go sideline-to-sideline like no one's business and Guyton is no slouch in short coverage either.

We're not suited to play 3-4 like we were in the past.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ummm I hate to pee on your despair but the 20TD observation is about the dumbest point I have ever heard.

Do you realize it but the Pats defense is on pace to give up zero rushing TD's this year?

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I hope you are making this point to deflect attention away from kontradiction's idiotic "424 yard" rants.

Kontra's 'rants' haven't been idiotic. Your response ignores several factors. For example, holding the Saints to 17 points in regulation would be an accomplishment. Holding the Broncos to 17 points in regulation is not. As I pointed out in another thread, the Broncos are 5-0, but they've only scored:

12
27
23
17
20

points, and that includes games against the Browns and Raiders, which are the only games they've scored more than the 20 they put up against the Patriots. The Patriots let a pretty anemic offense move up and down the field against them, and failed to shut down either the run or pass.

 

[supafly]

Ummm I hate to pee on your despair but the 20TD observation is about the dumbest point I have ever heard.

Do you realize it but the Pats defense is on pace to give up zero rushing TD's this year?

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I hope you are making this point to deflect attention away from kontradiction's idiotic "424 yard" rants.

So, by your acct, giving up 25 TD's through the air isn't a problem?

You do realize that Indy gave up what, 7 or 8 a couple yrs ago when they won the super bowl?

It shows that other teams can pass on us, simple as that. We haven't given up many rushing TD's because other teams realize they can pass it effectively.

Sanchez, Flacco, and Orton all torched this secondary for 150+ yrds per half, that's not too good, IMO. But, to each his own, I guess.

I'd be interested to find out how many they gave up thru the air last yr, when we had a horrible secondary--and I think it's right on pace.

 

[supafly]

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I didn't realize giving up 25 passing TD's in a year was 'outstanding,' but everyone's entitled to their opinion--and most of us don't resort to using sarcasm to get our point across either.

As fas as your take on Kontra's 'rant,' I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that's pretty much what these boards are for. Right or wrong, it's a place for discussion and he deserves to be heard--regardless if you agree or not.

If you don't then simply state a fact, and move on--respectfully.

 

[supafly]

Ummm I hate to pee on your despair but the 20TD observation is about the dumbest point I have ever heard.

Do you realize it but the Pats defense is on pace to give up zero rushing TD's this year?

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I hope you are making this point to deflect attention away from kontradiction's idiotic "424 yard" rants.

And as far as your 'dumbest point I have ever heard' reference goes:

According to pro-football-reference.com, the 2008 Patriots secondary gave up 27 TD's through the air--or 31 out of 32 teams.

This yrs 09 team is on pace to give up 25 TD's through the air, which is right on pace with the 2nd to league worst 08 patriots. But I guess it's the dumbest point you ever heard? How about the fact that we're on pace to give up MORE passing yards than last yr's 31st ranked secondary? Is that dumb too?

Especially considering we've faced Trent Edwards, Kyle Orton, and rookie Mark Sanchez. What's going to happen when we face Manning or Brees?

The point certainly has some validity. And FWIW-last yr's defense only gave up 8 rushing TD's, but you heard a lot more about how bad the secondary was v. how good the rush defense was. It certainly looks like after 1/3 of the season, that the trend on how to score v. our D is continuing.

 

[Kontradiction]

I see you running around here beating your chest about being level headed, yet after both losses this season you were most active AFTER a loss.

So you've been following me around the forum? Maybe I'll get an e-restraining order slapped on you. So did you come into this thread to discuss the problems the team is having or to attack me? Let me know so I can know what to expect. As for my "level of activity", I have almost 7,000 posts, broseph. I'm active no matter what. My activity after a loss should tell you one thing, and one thing only: that there's more to talk about around here after we lose. By the way, the only person beating their chest in this thread is you.

Instead of discussing things, you would rather blame the defense.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil huh? Did you actually read the link I posted up in here? 1,500 words dedicated to breaking the game down says that I would rather discuss things. The thing is that I discussed them, presented the game stats, made an argument, and faulted the defense, Brady, and the playcalling for the loss. Your problem is that you've decided to ignore that I've also put the blame on the offense and the play calling for the loss in this game as well. But to not put any blame on the defense for getting carved up and hide behind the "17 point" factor is just idiotic at best.

The defense is the catalyst of the loss?

It's the main one, yes.

Right.

Thank you.

When you hold someone to 17 points, and your tied going into OT but your QB had 2 WIDE OPEN shots, that's on him.

And Tom Brady has never had a bad game before? Is that what you're trying to say? I have news for you: Brady has had plenty of bad games before. Games that were much, MUCH worse than this one. In the past, one thing and one thing only bailed him out: the defense. Not so yesterday. We put up 17 points on the Broncos who then responded by scoring 10 unanswered points against us and driving down the field WITH EASE to win the game. In overtime, Brady never touched the ball. Yet you seem to be content with blaming him as if Brady was on the field for the defense allowing Kyle Orton to pick us apart. Here are the stats for you once again:

Passing: 330 Total Yards, 2 TD's.
Rushing: 103 Total Yards
Total Yards: 424
Time of Possession: 36:29
First Downs: 27

We got carved up on defense. On offense, we put up 305 yards of total offense, held the ball for almost 29 minutes, and scored 2 TD's to go along with 18 total first downs. Brady left 7-14 points out on the field, but wasn't backed up by the defense who allowed the Broncos to literally win the game in the end.

Would you be *****ing about the D if they had won? I doubt it, not to this extent.

You bet your ass I would. If the defense looked as terrible as they did yesterday and the Pats still managed to pull out the win, I would most definitely "*****" about it. Do you honestly believe that this defense resembled anything remotely close to the word, "good"?

But I think it's too early to say they don't and won't get a pass rush this year. Instead of freaking out, think about **** first.

Yes, it will get corrected. The blitz packages worked well enough in the Ravens game. However, the defense bailed itself out in that game. If not for an amazing INT by Bodden, they would have lost the game again for the team. Twice they allowed key drives down the field and got bailed out for it. The first was the most critical one before the half and the second was another critical one at the end of the game where an approaching McGowan forced Clayton to take his eyes off the ball. If Clayton had a set, we lose that game and it's all on the defense. However, that was two weeks ago. The one that's freshest in our minds is the clinic that the Broncos put up against us yesterday.

 

[Kontradiction]

Ummm I hate to pee on your despair but the 20TD observation is about the dumbest point I have ever heard.

Do you realize it but the Pats defense is on pace to give up zero rushing TD's this year?

The defense has given up 8 TD's (all passing). Prorate that out and that means 1.4 TD's per game. By any measure, that's outstanding.

I hope you are making this point to deflect attention away from kontradiction's idiotic "424 yard" rants.

You're more than welcome to argue any of my points at any time you wish, buddy. The fact that you haven't and just label them, "idiotic" shows you can't. But by all means, if you have any facts (doubtful) other than "17 POINTS LOLOLOL" to show that this defense played well yesterday, please present them.

 

[cstjohn17]

Great point. BB brought in TBC and Burgess to fill that role. TBC has played well but Burgess is a waste of a roster spot. Although I like TBC I don't think he exactly puts fear into the hearts of opposing OCs.

The defense was designed to be acceptable, keep the opponent under 20 PPG and with this offense they should win a lot more than they lose. The D is not setup to win games outright. IMO they have played beyond what I expected. The offense has not been able to keep up their end of the margain, Brady is off, Welker is injured, Galloway is lost, etc.

The fact is that the Patriots are among the least talented NFL team in terms of passing rushing personnel. Their OLB/DEs are not very good, so lack of a pass rush is no surprise.

 

[condon84]

Can someone please explain to me how you get pressure on a 5 yard out pattern???? Because that's all the Broncos were throwing yesterday (other than the screens, where pressure doesn't help and the quick clear out play to Scheffler). Please help me out here. The lack of pressure is a red herring. There's no way you can get pressure on a QB throwing those types of patterns. This is what the Patriots used to do to the Steelers to nullify the pass rush - spread out the defense and throw short passes.

Play tighter coverage. What we did on defense dictated what the Broncos did on offense. We played soft zone, 10 yards cushion so they just hit quick 6 yard stop routes. Hey, I remember doing that to teams with McD as our OC.

Early on, our DBs played closer to the LOS and we saw McGowan make some nice pass deflections. For some reason, on the Broncos 3rd (?) possession, we started laying off the receivers and the Broncos proceeded to march 90 yards for the TD. And for some odd reason, we must have liked what we saw because we proceeded to play such defense until the last drive for the Broncos in regulation where we had to make a stop, and then we switched back up to what we did in the beginning and played tighter coverage, blitzed and got a stop.

Don't get me wrong, in-between, on some instances, we played closer to the line of scrimmage, but the majority of the time, it was pitch and catch for the Broncos. Good times.

 

[BionicPatriot]

So you've been following me around the forum? Maybe I'll get an e-restraining order slapped on you. So did you come into this thread to discuss the problems the team is having or to attack me? Let me know so I can know what to expect. As for my "level of activity", I have almost 7,000 posts, broseph. I'm active no matter what. My activity after a loss should tell you one thing, and one thing only: that there's more to talk about around here after we lose. By the way, the only person beating their chest in this thread is you.

It's hard not to notice you're strange obsession with Ryan, that sig is huge. But yeah, I'm stalking you alright. I'm not beating my chest. I just don't panic like you are.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil huh? Did you actually read the link I posted up in here? 1,500 words dedicated to breaking the game down says that I would rather discuss things. The thing is that I discussed them, presented the game stats, made an argument, and faulted the defense, Brady, and the playcalling for the loss. Your problem is that you've decided to ignore that I've also put the blame on the offense and the play calling for the loss in this game as well. But to not put any blame on the defense for getting carved up and hide behind the "17 point" factor is just idiotic at best.

You're placing the blame on the defense. The fact is, they played well enough for us to win. I understand at times Brady has been bailed out. But at times he has not been bailed out either. The fact is, he was bailed out. the defense kept the game close enough in the 4th quarter to give Brady the chance to win. He had it and he lost it. It was just one of those games. Yet the defense is the catalyst? WTF were you watching? Oh wait Orton got 300+ yards on us, therefore we suck.

And Tom Brady has never had a bad game before? Is that what you're trying to say? I have news for you: Brady has had plenty of bad games before. Games that were much, MUCH worse than this one. In the past, one thing and one thing only bailed him out: the defense. Not so yesterday. We put up 17 points on the Broncos who then responded by scoring 10 unanswered points against us and driving down the field WITH EASE to win the game. In overtime, Brady never touched the ball. Yet you seem to be content with blaming him as if Brady was on the field for the defense allowing Kyle Orton to pick us apart. Here are the stats for you once again:

Passing: 330 Total Yards, 2 TD's.
Rushing: 103 Total Yards
Total Yards: 424
Time of Possession: 36:29
First Downs: 27

We got carved up on defense. On offense, we put up 305 yards of total offense, held the ball for almost 29 minutes, and scored 2 TD's to go along with 18 total first downs. Brady left 7-14 points out on the field, but wasn't backed up by the defense who allowed the Broncos to literally win the game in the end.

Did I say he didn't? I said he missed a wide open Moss and Welker. Those misses cost them the game, period. The defense gave up yards. Again, you keep *****ing how they got carved up which I never said they didn't. I just said they played well enough for us to win. The defense that "literally" let the Broncos win put the ball in Brady's hand. Was that letting the Broncos win? Or was it giving Brady a shot? If Brady completes the throw, I'm sure we hear different.

You bet your ass I would. If the defense looked as terrible as they did yesterday and the Pats still managed to pull out the win, I would most definitely "*****" about it. Do you honestly believe that this defense resembled anything remotely close to the word, "good"?

Are you capable of reading/ Do you have reading comprehension? Did I EVER say the D played good, or very good? No. I said they played well enough for us to win. They did, period.

Yes, it will get corrected. The blitz packages worked well enough in the Ravens game. However, the defense bailed itself out in that game. If not for an amazing INT by Bodden, they would have lost the game again for the team. Twice they allowed key drives down the field and got bailed out for it. The first was the most critical one before the half and the second was another critical one at the end of the game where an approaching McGowan forced Clayton to take his eyes off the ball. If Clayton had a set, we lose that game and it's all on the defense. However, that was two weeks ago. The one that's freshest in our minds is the clinic that the Broncos put up against us yesterday.

This is the bull**** I'm sick of. Just as you say that I say the Patriots are a Brady miss to edelman/Moss/Welker away from being 5-0. What if's don't mean ****. It's about what is. What's funny is you pretty much take all the credit from the D away in the Ravens game and pretty much say it's because the Ravens had no nuts. Wow. This board was screaming how good the defense was last week, now they're just lucky.