Red Sox pitching is overrated

[NJSportsFanatic]

I see ESPN is at it with their love affair on the Red Sox. It gets old fast. No one gives a damn about the Red Sox except the whiny Red Sox nation, which is way too big for my liking. Tim Kurkijan talks about the "great" Red Sox pitching. What great pitching? Schilling is up there in the age. Beckett has shown that he can't pitch in the AL. Who knows what Matsuzaka will do especially he never pitch in the majors not to mention he pitches in a hitter's park and the fact the AL got very good hitters? Wake can't pitch forever, right. Is Papelbon a starting material? I think you should use him as a closer because there is a chance Craig Hansen may not be that good. I am not in love with that rotation. If those players pitch in a city outside of NY and Boston, they would not get any mention.

I think the Angels rotation is the best rotation in baseball with Weaver, Joe Saunders, John Lackey, Ervin Santana, and Bartolo Colon. Tigers got good arms.

I will take the Yankees rotation over the Red Sox too.

BTW, if I had my way, I hope the Jays win the division because I am so tired of watching the Yankees and Red Sox and the mythical rivalry that you guys have up there.

 

[Fixit]

I will take the Yankees rotation over the Red Sox too.

Mussina - 38, can still pitch
Pettite - 34, and coming off one of his worst ever seasons...in the NL, to boot...still a crafty lefty.
Wang - pretty good
Igawa - what, the second most sought after Japanese pitcher, way behind Matsuzaka
Pavano - still laughing

That is indeed a fearsome rotation. Much better than:

Schilling - 40, can still pitch
Beckett - awesome stuff, finally learned that he can't just blow people away in the AL and will actually have to use different pitches
Matsuzaka - no reason to think he won't be a stud, already working on a new pitch
Papelbon - young power arm, was a starter his entire career until they found out he could slam the door pretty hard last season
Wakefield - knuckleballer who eats innings...that's all I can say about that guy, other than he's one of my fav Sox of all time
Lester - young lefty, great stuff, healthy again, season of experience under his belt

Yeah, I think you're right. The Yankees rotation is way awesomer.

 

[Foley]

Kurkjian wasn't claiming that the Red Sox had the best rotation, just that they have the potential to be. If Wakefield and Schilling are healthy and do what they've always done, Matsuzaka does what he did in Japan, Beckett does what he did in the NL, and Papelbon and Lester carry their success from the minors to the big leagues, then they have a great rotation. No one is expecting all of those ifs to happen, just that the rotation has a very high ceiling.

I'd take the Angels rotation over the Sox rotation easily, the Tigers too. But go back a year ago... did you expect going into Spring Training that the Tigers rotation would be the best in baseball? An aging Kenny Rogers? Nate Robertson and Jeremy Bonderman with career eras hovering around 5? Justin Verlander and his 7.15ERA in 2005? Practically everything that could go right went right and their rotation became the best in the business. So while I don't think lightning will strike with the Sox and it'll happen to their rotation too, its certianly possible that what happened with Detroit could happen with Boston.

 

[Cityofchampions33]

I see ESPN is at it with their love affair on the Red Sox. It gets old fast. No one gives a damn about the Red Sox except the whiny Red Sox nation, which is way too big for my liking. Tim Kurkijan talks about the "great" Red Sox pitching. What great pitching? Schilling is up there in the age. Beckett has shown that he can't pitch in the AL. Who knows what Matsuzaka will do especially he never pitch in the majors not to mention he pitches in a hitter's park and the fact the AL got very good hitters? Wake can't pitch forever, right. Is Papelbon a starting material? I think you should use him as a closer because there is a chance Craig Hansen may not be that good. I am not in love with that rotation. If those players pitch in a city outside of NY and Boston, they would not get any mention.

I think the Angels rotation is the best rotation in baseball with Weaver, Joe Saunders, John Lackey, Ervin Santana, and Bartolo Colon. Tigers got good arms.

I will take the Yankees rotation over the Red Sox too.

BTW, if I had my way, I hope the Jays win the division because I am so tired of watching the Yankees and Red Sox and the mythical rivalry that you guys have up there.

Okay, lemme get at this now, cuz your wrong in many places:
1) Kurk wasn't saying we are already great, he's basically saying that at the begining of the season,w e have the biggets potential.
2) Beckett showed i the 2nd half last eyar he can pitch in the AL, and if he uses his secondary pitches more he'll improve
3) Matsuzaka has around 5+ pitches, he'll be good
4) Wake deons't have to worry abotu age (it's called a knuckleball) he can pitch till he's 60 if he wanetd to
5) Papelbon was great as a closer, and is going abck to the rotation for ehalth reasons
6) I'm pretty sure all of those players would get plenty of mantion (maybe not Wake as much) outside of NY and MA.
7) Tigers ahve best rotation in baseball (9 deep, only 1 above 40)
8) Yankees rotation is looking fantastic with Pavano and should be in AAA Igawa.

 

[Johnny Mac]

9) Fenway's park factor is basically neutral.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

yeah i realize this thread was started by a jersey troll but it's a chance to talk baseball so I don't care.

the sox starters have potential out the wazoo. it is silly to think for a moment that it can all come together, but it is not unreasonable to expect some of it to bear fruit. the thing i really love about yankees fans right now is that, if you ask them about starters, the sox will be sunk by age, inexperience, being japanese, etc. yet the yankees are going to somehow avoid these same pratfalls.

one thing that amazes me is how people keep focusing on the wrong questions. The other day I was listening to Ordway and he thought the two biggest questions about the sox staff were matsuzaka adjusting to the US (and american hitters especially) and whether or not papelbon could adjust to starting.

All evidence and trends point to asian pitchers having the advantage when they first show up yet people are concerned about Daisuke. I figure him to be the surest bet of them all. His worst-case scenario entering the season is above average. his best case scenario is top 5 pitcher in baseball. if the guy's ERA ends up hovering around 4 he'll be considered a bust (I use ERA because it is the pitching stat of the masses and mediots) yet most pitchers would be more than happy with that.

As for Papelbon, I guess the fact that he started throughout the minors and 4 or 5 games for the Sox in '05 never happened. closing last year was an adjustment. going back to starting is not. besides, even if it was an adjustment the guy showed last year that he can adjust. The only question surrounding Papelbon is his shoulder, though shoulder surgery is far from rare among pitchers and he has had plenty of time to come back from the surgery.

 

[Real World]

Mussina - 38, can still pitch
Pettite - 34, and coming off one of his worst ever seasons...in the NL, to boot...still a crafty lefty.
Wang - pretty good
Igawa - what, the second most sought after Japanese pitcher, way behind Matsuzaka
Pavano - still laughing

That is indeed a fearsome rotation. Much better than:

Schilling - 40, can still pitch
Beckett - awesome stuff, finally learned that he can't just blow people away in the AL and will actually have to use different pitches
Matsuzaka - no reason to think he won't be a stud, already working on a new pitch
Papelbon - young power arm, was a starter his entire career until they found out he could slam the door pretty hard last season
Wakefield - knuckleballer who eats innings...that's all I can say about that guy, other than he's one of my fav Sox of all time
Lester - young lefty, great stuff, healthy again, season of experience under his belt

Yeah, I think you're right. The Yankees rotation is way awesomer.

Both rotations have serious question marks. The only sure, or maybe, the surest bet is Wang. The rest are all open to interpretation. Mussina is solid too I guess. I think the Yanks are more sure up top, but less sure at the bottom, whereas the Sox are somewhere in the middle, not as in both directions.

 

[Real World]

Okay, lemme get at this now, cuz your wrong in many places:
1) Kurk wasn't saying we are already great, he's basically saying that at the begining of the season,w e have the biggets potential.
2) Beckett showed i the 2nd half last eyar he can pitch in the AL, and if he uses his secondary pitches more he'll improve
3) Matsuzaka has around 5+ pitches, he'll be good
4) Wake deons't have to worry abotu age (it's called a knuckleball) he can pitch till he's 60 if he wanetd to
5) Papelbon was great as a closer, and is going abck to the rotation for ehalth reasons
6) I'm pretty sure all of those players would get plenty of mantion (maybe not Wake as much) outside of NY and MA.
7) Tigers ahve best rotation in baseball (9 deep, only 1 above 40)
8) Yankees rotation is looking fantastic with Pavano and should be in AAA Igawa.

Beckett showed what exactly There are 3 pitchers who have come out of Florida the last couple of years, Beckett, Burnett, and Pavano. Tell me which one has lit up the American league? Pavano had the best stats over the longest period of the three, whereas Burnett's stuff was considered the best of the three, with Beckett showing possibley the most promise. All 3 have less than impressed in the AL, so I dunno why people expect a 180.

 

[Foley]

Beckett showed what exactly There are 3 pitchers who have come out of Florida the last couple of years, Beckett, Burnett, and Pavano. Tell me which one has lit up the American league? Pavano had the best stats over the longest period of the three, whereas Burnett's stuff was considered the best of the three, with Beckett showing possibley the most promise. All 3 have less than impressed in the AL, so I dunno why people expect a 180.

Pavano was pretty mediocre in the NL, so expecting him to have been anything different in the AL was silly. Other than when he was pitching for a contract his entire career has been a disappointment due to lack of performance and injury. Being a disappointment in New York wasn't a shocker to anyone who looked at his career prior to 2004.

Burnett actually had a pretty decent season in the AL, looking at his sub-4ERA with decent peripherals. His major problem was that he was injured, the same problem he had in Florida and a problem that can't be blamed on him switching leagues. Burnett in the AL was just like Burnett in the NL: pretty good, but not healthy enough to be great.

Unlike Pavano and Burnett, Beckett actually was effected by switching leagues, for whatever reason it may be. So considering that Burnett and Pavano in the NL were not really different than themselves in the AL, I like Becketts chances of being able to turn it around and adapt. And considering that he is 3 years younger than Burnett and 4 years younger than Pavano, he has every opportunity to be better.

 

[Cityofchampions33]

Beckett showed what exactly There are 3 pitchers who have come out of Florida the last couple of years, Beckett, Burnett, and Pavano. Tell me which one has lit up the American league? Pavano had the best stats over the longest period of the three, whereas Burnett's stuff was considered the best of the three, with Beckett showing possibley the most promise. All 3 have less than impressed in the AL, so I dunno why people expect a 180.

Well 15 wins in his first season in the AL ain't too bad. Also having his curve ranked second in the AL by the managers helps too. His problem was that he throws fastball afetr fastball after fastball. When he did utilize his curve he was as good as everyone expected. Track records don't really mean much unless they are decidedly great or incredibley ****ty. Beckett is ONLY 26, with good stuff, and a good fastball. He hans't even entered his prime yet, so it wouldn't be fair to just cast him off now.

 

[Real World]

Pavano was pretty mediocre in the NL, so expecting him to have been anything different in the AL was silly. Other than when he was pitching for a contract his entire career has been a disappointment due to lack of performance and injury. Being a disappointment in New York wasn't a shocker to anyone who looked at his career prior to 2004.

Burnett actually had a pretty decent season in the AL, looking at his sub-4ERA with decent peripherals. His major problem was that he was injured, the same problem he had in Florida and a problem that can't be blamed on him switching leagues. Burnett in the AL was just like Burnett in the NL: pretty good, but not healthy enough to be great.

Unlike Pavano and Burnett, Beckett actually was effected by switching leagues, for whatever reason it may be. So considering that Burnett and Pavano in the NL were not really different than themselves in the AL, I like Becketts chances of being able to turn it around and adapt. And considering that he is 3 years younger than Burnett and 4 years younger than Pavano, he has every opportunity to be better.

I think Sox fans got oversold on Beckett's ability. It's why I'd be hesitant to overpay for Dontrelle Willis after seeing what his 3 predecessors have done, and what the rookies are doing in florida alongside him. That park is far too pitcher friendly.

 

[Foley]

I think Sox fans got oversold on Beckett's ability. It's why I'd be hesitant to overpay for Dontrelle Willis after seeing what his 3 predecessors have done, and what the rookies are doing in florida alongside him. That park is far too pitcher friendly.

Oversold by who? Beckett has always been thought of by most as someone with a lot of potential who has never been able to put it all together because of blisters. The opinion that Beckett would to come to Boston and win 22 games with a 3.20ERA and win the Cy Young was not the majority opinion. Hes a few months younger than Chien-Ming Wang, if Wang had a bad year in 2005 would that mean he sucks and could never pitch in the AL? Or would it mean that he is a young pitcher who was adjusting?

And the park didn't help Pavano any. Like I said, he was nothing special in Florida other than when he was in a contract year and wanted to get paid. And Willis has nothing in common with the other three save for the fact they are all pitchers and once pitched in Florida. Willis has had four above average and healhy seasons, while Beckett, Burnett and Pavano may have about four between them.

 

[Real World]

Oversold by who? Beckett has always been thought of by most as someone with a lot of potential who has never been able to put it all together because of blisters. The opinion that Beckett would to come to Boston and win 22 games with a 3.20ERA and win the Cy Young was not the majority opinion. Hes a few months younger than Chien-Ming Wang, if Wang had a bad year in 2005 would that mean he sucks and could never pitch in the AL? Or would it mean that he is a young pitcher who was adjusting?

And the park didn't help Pavano any. Like I said, he was nothing special in Florida other than when he was in a contract year and wanted to get paid. And Willis has nothing in common with the other three save for the fact they are all pitchers and once pitched in Florida. Willis has had four above average and healhy seasons, while Beckett, Burnett and Pavano may have about four between them.

Pavano was injured through most of his career. He was traded for Pedro, which says alot of his ability. Furthermore, he took off in the second half of '03, and carried it through his entire 'o4 season. A lot of people forget that fact. Pavano is what he is, which is a middle of the rotation guy. I have to disagree with you about Beckett. Beckett was expected to be very good here. Certainly a pissload better than a 5+ ERA. I had an arguement with a lot of people around here when the deal was made, which is why I remember the hype well. People have actually been pointing to the Beckett disappointment when citing Deiske (however you spell it). I guess it's all in how you see it.

 

[Foley]

Pavano was injured through most of his career. He was traded for Pedro, which says alot of his ability. Furthermore, he took off in the second half of '03, and carried it through his entire 'o4 season. A lot of people forget that fact. Pavano is what he is, which is a middle of the rotation guy. I have to disagree with you about Beckett. Beckett was expected to be very good here. Certainly a pissload better than a 5+ ERA. I had an arguement with a lot of people around here when the deal was made, which is why I remember the hype well. People have actually been pointing to the Beckett disappointment when citing Deiske (however you spell it). I guess it's all in how you see it.

Pavano had a 4.14ERA and 1.32WHIP the second half of 2003. Good, but nothing phenominal like in 2004. And I've never argued that Pavano wasn't talented and didn't have potential, just that in his entire career he only lived up to it in one season. All I'm really saying is that going from the NL to the AL didn't really have much of an effect on Pavano, because below average stats and a copius number of injuries are what plauged him prior to his move to New York.

And the people who claimed the Beckett trade was as important to the franchise as the Pedro trade and expected him to be fantastic right of the bat are the same ones predicting Paplebon and Matsuzaka to be 20 game winners next season. Just because he doesn't live up to the obsurdly high expectations fanboys place on him does not mean that he was a failure or will continue to be a failure. Was his ERA high? sure. But he also allowed less than a hit an inning. His BAA was better than that of Roy Halladay and NL Cy Young winner Brandon Webb. His WHIP was tied with Carlos Zambrano for 28th in baseball. He had a decent season. And like I said: he's younger than Wang and barely older than Papelbon... two guys who were in the minors in 2005. Beckett has plenty of time to get better.

 

[Real World]

Pavano had a 4.14ERA and 1.32WHIP the second half of 2003. Good, but nothing phenominal like in 2004. And I've never argued that Pavano wasn't talented and didn't have potential, just that in his entire career he only lived up to it in one season. All I'm really saying is that going from the NL to the AL didn't really have much of an effect on Pavano, because below average stats and a copius number of injuries are what plauged him prior to his move to New York.

And the people who claimed the Beckett trade was as important to the franchise as the Pedro trade and expected him to be fantastic right of the bat are the same ones predicting Paplebon and Matsuzaka to be 20 game winners next season. Just because he doesn't live up to the obsurdly high expectations fanboys place on him does not mean that he was a failure or will continue to be a failure. Was his ERA high? sure. But he also allowed less than a hit an inning. His BAA was better than that of Roy Halladay and NL Cy Young winner Brandon Webb. His WHIP was tied with Carlos Zambrano for 28th in baseball. He had a decent season. And like I said: he's younger than Wang and barely older than Papelbon... two guys who were in the minors in 2005. Beckett has plenty of time to get better.

I'm not saying he doesn't have talent, or that he can't turn it around. I'm merely trying to say that he was a major disappointment, and is not a guaranteed shoe in to be the ace people project him to be. In the AL, with the DH, and stronger lineups, a pitchers location is key. Becketts location was miserable last season. Guys just sat on his pitches. All things considered, who wouldn't want a 26/27 year old pitcher with 700+ IP in the majors, who had a plus curve and 98 mph heat. The guy is talented.

 

[Fixit]

Pavano had a 4.14ERA and 1.32WHIP the second half of 2003. Good, but nothing phenominal like in 2004. And I've never argued that Pavano wasn't talented and didn't have potential, just that in his entire career he only lived up to it in one season. All I'm really saying is that going from the NL to the AL didn't really have much of an effect on Pavano, because below average stats and a copius number of injuries are what plauged him prior to his move to New York.

And the people who claimed the Beckett trade was as important to the franchise as the Pedro trade and expected him to be fantastic right of the bat are the same ones predicting Paplebon and Matsuzaka to be 20 game winners next season. Just because he doesn't live up to the obsurdly high expectations fanboys place on him does not mean that he was a failure or will continue to be a failure. Was his ERA high? sure. But he also allowed less than a hit an inning. His BAA was better than that of Roy Halladay and NL Cy Young winner Brandon Webb. His WHIP was tied with Carlos Zambrano for 28th in baseball. He had a decent season. And like I said: he's younger than Wang and barely older than Papelbon... two guys who were in the minors in 2005. Beckett has plenty of time to get better.

Three words: Too. Many. Homeruns.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Three words: Too. Many. Homeruns.

and he gave up more than double his previous career high in homeruns. that screams aberration to me.

 

[Foley]

I'm not saying he doesn't have talent, or that he can't turn it around. I'm merely trying to say that he was a major disappointment, and is not a guaranteed shoe in to be the ace people project him to be. In the AL, with the DH, and stronger lineups, a pitchers location is key. Becketts location was miserable last season. Guys just sat on his pitches. All things considered, who wouldn't want a 26/27 year old pitcher with 700+ IP in the majors, who had a plus curve and 98 mph heat. The guy is talented.

He was a major dissapintment for those who expected him to come in and be an ace right off the bat. Most people with any knowledge of baseball and the league disparities knew that he was going to have an adjustment period. Expecting him to be instantly dominant would be setting oneself up for disappointment.

Its the same thing with Matsuzaka: I guarantee in 4 months people will be whinning about him because he doesn't have the sub 3 ERA everyone expects and it was a huge mistake to sign him. The fanbase got spoiled with Pedro coming in dominating right off the bat and every big pitcher acquisition has be ignorantly compared to him.

Three words: Too. Many. Homeruns.

Yes, but his control was a bigger concern. Schilling has always given up a lot of homeruns and extra-base hits (his SLG against was actually a bit higher than Becketts last year), but he manages to be successful by having impeccable control (best BB/9 in baseball last season, while Beckett ranked 57th). If he works on his control he can still give up 30HR a season and be successful. And keep in mind, he only allowed 10HR in the second half as opposed to 26 in the first, so he got a whole lot better in that regard as the season went on.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

The fanbase got spoiled with Pedro coming in dominating right off the bat and every big pitcher acquisition has be ignorantly compared to him.

quoted for truth

 

[Cityofchampions33]

Three words: Too. Many. Homeruns.

First half: 26 HRs
Second Half: 10 HRs

And I cannot stress the importance of HIS YOUNG AGE. Remember, take all of this with a grain of salt, and criticize him when he's 28 or so. As you cans ee though, he seemed to have Fix(ed)it