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Not so much a lie, as a highly insidious half truth. The globe is warming. There's even an absolutely tiny percentage of that that's actually human-caused.

The lie they follow this truth with is, that if we surrender our sovereignty, suborn our government processes and turn all political p0wer over to them, they will fix everything and it will be all rainbows and sunshine.

There's variations on the theme, some want scientists in charge, some want a global world government, some don't know what they want beyond power itself. but it all boils down to "put us in power and do as we say or you are dooming the planet!"

It's not entirely truthless. But giving the whiners the power they want isn't actually going to save any planets at all. it's just going to empower exactly the kind of people who should NOT be empowered -- political opportunists, activists who can't see beyond their cause, intellectuals far too impressed with their intelligence to remember their humanity, that kind of people.
God this is sad. You and the Captain are entitled to your opinion. So are the members of the Flat Earth Society (yes there actually is one). Have you read ANY of the science that's been done.....over and over and over again. You certainly have a right, and perhaps even an obligation to question the solutions to this world wide problem. But NOT to question its existence or try to minimize it.

BTW- just an investment suggestion. Do not invest in seashore property for the long term. ;)
 
I've read a lot of the science. I concede that the planet is warming. I concede that it's partially human caused. I agree with those who follow the negative feedback theory of AGW, (that the globe is warming, that a significant portion is manmade, and that rather than turning into a Michael Bay extravaganda the moment Aunt Gertie leaves the stove on for one second too long, natural forces will tend to contain and control the warming as long as reasonable caution is taken not to overtax those forces) because that fits better with the science as I understand it over a fanciful positive feedback model. Positive feedback AGW sounds more like a Michael Bay movie than actual science, and any time science is sensationalized and as wed to a political theory as positive-feedback AGW is to the green movement, it's a good time for a little bit of extra vigilance.

For a negative feedback AGW to be accurate, the climate will warm and the seas will rise. Why, over the next thousand years they may even rise a few inches if we're not careful. We still need to not break the planet so it's there for our great grandchildren, reasonable dilligence and caution is necessary, but the unthinking panic of positive feedback theory, New York drowning overnight Day After Tomorrow balderdash is exactly that.

What we have here is a doublespeak problem. There is plenty of evidence that the globe is warming, from a global low point in the 20's and 30's and on a broader basis, from a trough in the 18th century well known as the Little Ice Age. People move on from that to assume that AGW (manmade warming) is settled science. Warming is, manmade warming is more of a well supported theory. And then they doublespeak AGAIN to railroad us past several other perfectly defensible theories and straight to positive feedback AGW. And if you express any skepticism about the HIGHLY indefensible positive feedback AGW theory, you're accused of "denying global warming" and because of the way these people heap doublespeak on top of doublespeak, it's REALLY hard to bring the point back round to what you're actually to accomplish.

My real problem with positive feeback AGW theory is that science and faith do NOT mix. And there is a lot more faith than science in positive-feedback AGW theory in particular

When it comes to anything involving global temperature trends We are relying heavily on computers and algorithms to make up for an appalling lack of supporting data. At the end of the day computers can only do so much in the absence of real data. And when it comes to tracking global temperatures, we only have a handful of decades of truly reliable data, and even worse, the start point of those measurements is well known to be a global low point.

You guys are sports fans, you know how unreliable small sample sizes can be for determining real trends in a useful manner. Real sample sizes for global climate trends begin at HUNDREDS of years of climate data, and we have dozens at most! It's like judging a baseball player on his first 50 PA's (or a bit more topically, evaluating a quarterback on his first 2 1/2 games). You can see potential tendencies but they could just be illusions and you have to say the words "hopefully" and "probably" a lot. And there probably is NOT a good way to make so-called "settled science" of any theory that has to use those words!

Do you understand what that means? IT MEANS THAT EVERYONE IS MAKING GUESSES. Nobody can know because there simply is not even enough data to draw a conclusion that isn't drowned out by the statistical noise generated by the global low point in the 20's and 30's.

it's like everything else, news drops and people scramble to do as much dilligence as they can within the deadline, and then sally forth with their theory whether there's any real truth behind it or not, and when the basis of real information is hundreds of years of climate data that simply don't exist, you find yourself leaning heavily in the direction of "not." So far from being settled science, announcing any conclusion at all based on this information is an effort to "publish or perish" and leap ahead of the true scientific process by several decades at least.

The rest is simply a matter of political opportunitsts cashing into the compelling story of oceans about to boil over to attract votes and attention. it all has about as much REAL scientific validity as the Wells report.
 
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Guys, as much as I love climate flame wars, they moved closed the Patsfans political forum, because people get real mad about straight-up politics. Shortly thereafter Patsfanspofo.freeforums.net started up. I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do, just reminding people that it's not on here anymore.
 
Have said it before but I keep waiting for someone to do a 20/20 on the entire deflategate controversy; from the initial disinformation campaign, the rush to judgement across the sports and national media, the conflation of this alleged discretion to one of the more heinous actions in sports and possibly American history (Tommy, what about the children?) to the laughable Wells report, to the NFL's unwillingness to listen to scientific logic and to not only double down on their claims but to actively disparage a star player with additional bogus "leaks" like Brady wanted the transcripts sealed (oops - did not expect judge Berman to do THAT) to the farce of the appeal process.

It is why all Pats fans continue to revel in stupid stories like walkie talkie gate, and now the airplugs/hearing aids. No one actually cares about any of this stuff and even if it is breaking the rules a tad who really cares. But because you ran OUR TEAM and worse Tom F'ing Brady through this farce we can never relent.

God help us if Gisele ever thought HGH was going to make her age more slowly... An uninjured Brady with a supermodel wife with a solid professional reason for ordering that stuff? Scandal. A guy with a broken neck kicked off his last team for being virtually dead suddenly recovering after his wife orders it? Nothing to see here... But geez Peyton, stop playing w/needles, you'll put an eye out...

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I think you're leaning over the deep end a bit with the political statements, but the points you make are valid.

Not to be critical, but if we change the word evolusion to evilusion, we might have a good new word for the crap the NYFL has pulled with Brady and the Pats.

My standard reaction to the Pats haters is that I couldn't care less what they think. That seems to work well for me.

It's a MA team. Gotta slip in those political statements every now & then. It's like the rosary for progressives.
 
Guys, as much as I love climate flame wars, they moved closed the Patsfans political forum, because people get real mad about straight-up politics. Shortly thereafter Patsfanspofo.freeforums.net started up. I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do, just reminding people that it's not on here anymore.
Sorry, sorry, you're right. Some noob just challenged my science and I don't like it when someone challenges my sciecne.

(seriously, I get so sick of the rampant sensationalism of those who think that all AGW research points to positive feedback warming explosions straight out of the alarmist movies, completely ignoring the fact that every facet of the ecosystem seeks to gain equilibrium, and regain it if lost. If the environmental balance was THAT easy to derail, any of a dozen different global cataclysms would have undone the ecosystem millions of years before we were born).
 
how about your spelling? "I don't like it when someone challenges my sciecne."
My spelling is fair game. Just leave my damn SCIENCE alone!
 
Sorry, sorry, you're right. Some noob just challenged my science and I don't like it when someone challenges my sciecne.

(seriously, I get so sick of the rampant sensationalism of those who think that all AGW research points to positive feedback warming explosions straight out of the alarmist movies, completely ignoring the fact that every facet of the ecosystem seeks to gain equilibrium, and regain it if lost. If the environmental balance was THAT easy to derail, any of a dozen different global cataclysms would have undone the ecosystem millions of years before we were born).

I'm not going to air opinions on climate unless you broaden it to include the effect of a chilly rainy night on the air pressure in a football.

But PatFanKen's posts on football are often some of the best thought through and insightful I've seen here. I don't know how you're using "noob," but I don't think it applies to Ken - if indeed that's who you're plinking at here.

As to your seplling, the redoubtable Mr. Kerr beat me to it ;)
 
Sorry, sorry, you're right. Some noob just challenged my science and I don't like it when someone challenges my sciecne.

(seriously, I get so sick of the rampant sensationalism of those who think that all AGW research points to positive feedback warming explosions straight out of the alarmist movies, completely ignoring the fact that every facet of the ecosystem seeks to gain equilibrium, and regain it if lost. If the environmental balance was THAT easy to derail, any of a dozen different global cataclysms would have undone the ecosystem millions of years before we were born).

"You're right, you're right, I just get riled up about this stuff. I'll stop."

(goes on to write 150 word parenthetical expression where I don't stop)
 
I'm not going to air opinions on climate unless you broaden it to include the effect of a chilly rainy night on the air pressure in a football.

But PatFanKen's posts on football are often some of the best thought through and insightful I've seen here. I don't know how you're using "noob," but I don't think it applies to Ken - if indeed that's who you're plinking at here.

As to your seplling, the redoubtable Mr. Kerr beat me to it ;)

Not gonna sit here and defend my every word choice. Ken was the one who decided to try to beat someone over the head with the word "science" and nothing behind it, reprising, deliberately or accidentally, the very worst of supercilious self-satisfied superiority of the climate-alarmist movement. Carrying on the digression accomplishes nothing, but it was Ken that went there.
 
Not gonna sit here and defend my every word choice. Ken was the one who decided to try to beat someone over the head with the word "science"...
Ken's post was about how the slander of deflategate, which, he contends, was scientifically demonstrated to have been baseless, continues to tarnish the Patriots legacy, in contrast to the way the Colts are treated by the league and media. All on topic. You went on a several hundred word pompous, self-stimulatory rant about a topic which, although near to your heart, has very little to do with his point or the thread. Definitely don't apologize, that's fine; just shush.
 
In the end the fact remains that this thread isn't about whether the Colts were trying to gain an advantage back when they did this. OF COURSE they were. So were the other 31 teams back then in one way or another.

No, this thread was about just pointing out ANOTHER example of the blatant hypocrisy of the NFL league office, Rodger Goodell and his NYJ cronies, and jealous ownership groups that led the bogus witchhunt also known as "framegate".

Middle school science has long since proven that NOTHING happened that AFCCG in January of 2015. This fact has being backed up by MULTIPLE Nobel laureates.

So the fact that even when most mediots acknowledge the ridiculousness of the charges, it is extremely frustrating when they rarely fail to add a qualifier to their condemnation of the league, as if to say "Brady should have been found not guilty of the charge, but that doesn't mean something fishy wasn't going on".

And when that happens I scream at the screen that "No! It's been PROVEN that nothing "fishy" had EVER gone on.

But its to no avail. Brady has been permanently slandered and so have the Patriots organization.....AND its fans.

When the "big lie" gets a chance to fester, you can eventually wash out most of it when the truth comes out, but some the stink of the lie still remains. How else can you explain how so many people can so casually dismiss global warming, or even evolution? :rolleyes:

Ken,

There are two groups of people who reject nearly unanimous scientific consensus.

1. Those who find it in their own self-interest to reject the conclusion.

2. Those who are skeptical there will ever be a clear answer to conflicting scientific opinions and therefore typically reject everything and damn both sides of the argument (in the case of Brady...hey, something must have been going on, and I'm not reading a 1,000 page arcane report that is still being debated.)

The problem with the latter group, which contains the vast majority of people, and the similarities between Climate Change and Defamegate, is that in both cases the well was already poisoned before that clear scientific conclusion emerged. Climate Change was for many years a hotly contested topic, even though we now know in its early years much of the "science" denying it was fully funded by people who fall into category 1, those who reject it for their own self-interest (oil companies, etc.) In Defamegate, most people remember the misguided understanding of the Ideal Gas Laws, including blatant mathematical errors from pop culture scientists, expert football players proclaiming they knew the difference in 0.1 PSI (we now know this to be absurd), faulty reports on the actual ball numbers, and of course, the Wells Report itself, whose conclusions were at best a gigantic, error-filled reach and more accurately, pseudo-science. The ultimate conclusion, when you peel away all the layers of the onion is this: the Patriots balls were, at worst, under-inflated by about 0.3 PSI on average. Even that conclusion is based on assumed measurements, incorrect applications of math, and the "worst case scenario" of the mathematical probability spectrum. If you accept those findings, you'd have to also accept the Patriots actually deflated the footballs by 0.3 PSI, not 2.0-3.0 PSI. Of course that 0.3 PSI can be accounted for by either (a) the very likely account that such a smaller number was in fact part of the errors in measurement/variation, and/or (b) the 0.3 PSI is accounted for by Walt Anderson's own testimony that the needle he used was different by approximately 0.3 PSI from the other one (Dr. Blecker has already covered this.)

But even at the ends of this science, where only a fool would not have a clear opinion, there is too much reading and logic involved for many people who see scientists pointing fingers at each other, unaware of the level of collusion and lies from the NFL offices, and unwilling to believe the NFL would want to purposely damage its brand (underestimating the pettiness and flawed humanity of the NFL office.) I do think that the great majority of sports fans now believe the NFL was biased, extreme, and unfair to Brady, but I don't think they gotten yet to the point of realizing this entire scandal was manufactured intentionally at every stage, beginning with fake ball pressure numbers.

I say this as someone who for years was just tired of the Climate Change arguments and felt "hey, both sides seem to really they are right with equal conviction and seem to have the science to back it up, so I'm staying out of it." Hopefully, like Climate Change, one day people will care as much about a stupid, overblown sports scandal, to revisit it and realize how one-sided the conclusions are.
 
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But that is my exact point, 60. My comments on global warming and evolution AREN'T "political statements", they are scientific FACTS.

To deny it is like claiming to believe water is made up of one hydrogen atom and not 2. To deny it is like believing that its the earth and not the sun that is the center of our solar system. It's like believing that humans co-existed with the Dinosaurs, and earth is only a few thousand years old.

But thanks for agreeing with the main point I was trying to make, which that the NYJFL slandered, railroaded, and otherwise framed the Pats and Tom Brady, and there are NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO qualifiers. ;)

Phew boy.

Like deflategate the global warming argument and the "facts" are twisted by blundering idiots from both sides for political purposes.

No one sensible argues that climate change or global warming isn't real just as no one sensible argues that footballs don't lose pressure in cold weather. The argument for both are whether or not, or how much of it was man made and how much was due to natural causes.

The earth's climate and football pressures will continue to change with or without man. The question or argument should be how much.

Unfortunately in both cases you have yahoos from the left and right arguing stupidity. "Climate change is because of man....der der....stop driving SUV's and stop cows from farting." or "Wooo, coldest weather in a century......der der....climate change isn't real"
 
Send me the details please...I'll just be sitting in the corner with the nitrous tank.

"Hey!!!" "Wait a minute!!" "That isn't Nitrous"
 
Ice: Go back to my oh-god-way-too-long screed above and read the paragraph about "doublespeak" (you don't have to read the whole post, that word should flag it in a text search) and please tell me: Which of the several different layers of debate are you talking about? Because one of the problems for the layman is the fact that the layers of this debate are getting smooshed together into one convenient catch phrase, "climate change." As if the debate is about one central issue and over one fact being true or not. And that is hideously inaccurate.

This effectively makes it impossible for anyone who has a nuanced position to make themselves clear and makes anyone who does not toe The Line to be branded a climate heretic. Convenient for advancing an agenda, not so convenient for actually weighing the facts and arriving at a conclusion. With such charged rhetoric coming from one side of the argument, truth is an instant casualty. With no true authoritative consensus, there's too many conflicting voices to really figure out what's right, you can only choose to believe or disbelieve. The half-lie of "settled science" moves the whole argument into the realm of faith as a result

People who debate that the earth is warming at all, people who accept the warming and doubt it has a human cause, and people who accept the warming, accept the human cause, and either reserve their skepticism for the severity of impact (negative feedback theory, the group I agree with), or doubt that humans have the ability to effectively make a meaningful change without devastating our quality of life and believe that the correct solution is to prepare to adapt ourselves rather than try to restrict progress, are all lumped into one group "climate deniers" as a result. Especially for the latter two groups who recognize the problem but differ on the appropriate response, that's unfair and would benefit from a lot more nuance.
 
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This is not a good forum to discuss AGW, etc. especially in response to a brief mention, however out of context.
 
God this is sad. You and the Captain are entitled to your opinion. So are the members of the Flat Earth Society (yes there actually is one). Have you read ANY of the science that's been done.....over and over and over again. You certainly have a right, and perhaps even an obligation to question the solutions to this world wide problem. But NOT to question its existence or try to minimize it.

BTW- just an investment suggestion. Do not invest in seashore property for the long term. ;)

Wrong again Ken. He didn't question its existence rather why it exists.
 
Ice: Go back to my oh-god-way-too-long screed above and read the paragraph about "doublespeak" (you don't have to read the whole post, that word should flag it in a text search) and please tell me: Which of the several different layers of debate are you talking about? Because one of the problems for the layman is the fact that the layers of this debate are getting smooshed together into one convenient catch phrase, "climate change." As if the debate is about one central issue and over one fact being true or not. And that is hideously inaccurate.

This effectively makes it impossible for anyone who has a nuanced position to make themselves clear and makes anyone who does not toe The Line to be branded a climate heretic. Convenient for advancing an agenda, not so convenient for actually weighing the facts and arriving at a conclusion. With such charged rhetoric coming from one side of the argument, truth is an instant casualty. With no true authoritative consensus, there's too many conflicting voices to really figure out what's right, you can only choose to believe or disbelieve. The half-lie of "settled science" moves the whole argument into the realm of faith as a result

People who debate that the earth is warming at all, people who accept the warming and doubt it has a human cause, and people who accept the warming, accept the human cause, and either reserve their skepticism for the severity of impact (negative feedback theory, the group I agree with), or doubt that humans have the ability to effectively make a meaningful change without devastating our quality of life and believe that the correct solution is to prepare to adapt ourselves rather than try to restrict progress, are all lumped into one group "climate deniers" as a result. Especially for the latter two groups who recognize the problem but differ on the appropriate response, that's unfair and would benefit from a lot more nuance.

I am merely referring to the idea that the earth is getting warmer, and at least part of that cause is due to human activity. That concept in itself was for many years not accepted as a scientific truth or at least an extremely strong probability. The degree to which people believe (a) the earth is getting warmer, (b) human activity is the cause, and (c) an effective response must be taken to combat this, are all outside of my point.
 
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