Pats and Wilfork close to a deal for an extension?

[kennyb]

In 2004, Wilfork weighed 323Lbs. at the combine, he was listed at 325Lbs. ever since, if you look at him then and now he is a bigger man, and I am sure he has developed more muscle during his time in the NFL. If I was to guess, Wilfork has played recent seasons between 360-380Lbs. With that in mind, even if he is over 400Lbs. he only has to lose 10% of his body weight to get back to 360Lbs. People who think he was playing at 325Lbs. and gained 75Lbs. are crazy.

Why are they crazy? He doesn't look like the same person. If he was 320 in the first pic, who is to say what the second pic looks like as far as weight. He could be 400 pounds. So 360-380 is what it is but 400 is "crazy".

And I like the "If Wilfork is even...80%...75%....(now 65%) of the pre injury Wilfork..." As measured by WHAT?

And Amendola would have cost cap to cut or at least been about neutral depending on whether they cut before the bonus or not. Wilfork saves 7.5-8M. Big difference. And Amendola is coming back from a common injury and he's young. Wilfork is coming back from an often career ending injury.

I just hope they get enough injury protection, ie lower his salary. Guaranteeing a salary in an "extension" just spreads the damage out if he can't play, it doesn't eliminate it.

 

[Peachhead]

That would be incredibly cool! I've been pretty depressed since it came out the VW had asked for his release.

 

[Brady6]

Why are they crazy? He doesn't look like the same person. If he was 320 in the first pic, who is to say what the second pic looks like as far as weight. He could be 400 pounds. So 360-380 is what it is but 400 is "crazy".

And I like the "If Wilfork is even...80%...75%....(now 65%) of the pre injury Wilfork..." As measured by WHAT?

And Amendola would have cost cap to cut or at least been about neutral depending on whether they cut before the bonus or not. Wilfork saves 7.5-8M. Big difference. And Amendola is coming back from a common injury and he's young. Wilfork is coming back from an often career ending injury.

I just hope they get enough injury protection, ie lower his salary. Guaranteeing a salary in an "extension" just spreads the damage out if he can't play, it doesn't eliminate it.

I said they were crazy if they thought he was playing at 325Lbs. for the past ten years, he has been playing over 360Lbs. for the better part of his career.

 

[signbabybrady]

All this back and forth over Vince is crazy this is one of the greatest Patriots of all time and the comments about him are getting over board. Clearly the Patriots still think he has value to them otherwise he would have been cut weeks ago the question now is how much value do they see and can Vince and the team find a middle ground between what they think his value to be and what his contract is.

Please stop hating on Vince! And just let this play out. Your need to claim that you knew he had nothing left and that you were right should not be more important than standing behind someone who has been here so long and contributed the way he has.

 

[patfanken]

Ken, you really, really have to read this:
Draft Pick Cap Misconception

The rookies actually take about $1.5MM.

Yes I did. Thank you, Patchick. That's great news.

BUT, it doesn't change the greater point. We currently only have $4-5MM in cap room. I think we all can agree that we have needs on the DL, LB, OL, and TE that need to be at least partially met by signing FA's. Even more if we want Blount back. Releasing Vince (which sounds so much better than "cutting him") is the only way to create that kind of room. Like I said, I don't think a simple restructure would get enough to sign the people we need. I hope I'm wrong

 

[mayoclinic]

All this back and forth over Vince is crazy this is one of the greatest Patriots of all time and the comments about him are getting over board. Clearly the Patriots still think he has value to them otherwise he would have been cut weeks ago the question now is how much value do they see and can Vince and the team find a middle ground between what they think his value to be and what his contract is.

Please stop hating on Vince! And just let this play out. Your need to claim that you knew he had nothing left and that you were right should not be more important than standing behind someone who has been here so long and contributed the way he has.

I haven't seen much "hating on Vince". He's acknowledged by everyone to be one of the all-time great Pats, and he's been treated (and compensated) accordingly by the Pats. The question is whether he is physically able to continue being a factor. I don't think that "clearly the Patriots still think he has value to them"; I don't think they know if he has value or not, and they haven't cut him because it makes no sense to do so until they either know for sure what his physical status is, or if they absolutely need the space.

Wondering whether future production will be remotely close to past production post injury, and asking what it is likely to be worth, is not "hating on Vince".

 

[patfanken]

Wilfork has a front porch, but hes very athletic.

Remember when BB told the players if Wilfork caught a punt that they could have time off and Wilfork fielded the punt like he was Kevin Faulk? Wilfork has like 3 interceptions IIRC. Vs the Jets in the 2006 postseason, Wilfork picked up a fumble and returned it about 60 yards. I recall him saying that "he didnt show all his speed and one of those little fast guys caught me"

Where are all these reports coming from that Wilfork wont come back from this injury? Why arent the Pats moving on if Wilfork isnt going to be near the player that he was? Makes no sense for them to invest more money into damaged goods.

The NE run defense went to hell once Wilfork was gone and I welcome him back as soon as possible.

All those great athletic moves were done BEFORE the achilles injury and and many of the examples you pointed out came several years ago.

We have to deal with the Vince Wilfolk of today. The one that was reported to weigh 400 lbs (which I hope is erroneous). The one who is recovering from an injury that debilitates most professional athletes who have it, if not ends their careers (and I hope Vince is the exception) The one who seemed to have declined significantly enough that even we casual observers could notice it, before the injury. Declined enough that even his most ardent supporters (which includes me) have to question whether he's worth the $11MM cap hit.

Add all that to the fact that we need the cap room, and unfortunately for Vince, his contract is literally the only place where we can gain the room we need

 

[patfanken]

Here's the hard reality that we all have to face. Most of the people who want Vince back (if he can play) defend him by pointing out he ability to "stuff the run". But is that what we really need right now, and even if we do, at what price? People seem to forget that the run defense improved dramatically over the last 3 or 4 games and into the playoffs. They forget the young kids improved.

So even if Vince can come back and be an effective run stuffer, is a declining Vince going to be THAT much better than what we'd get from an improving Siliga at that limited role. And let's look at the role he'd fill. In today's pass happy NFL, just how important IS a "run stuffer"?

The truth is we need Vince's cap space to improve our pass rush by adding at least a DE and OLB in FA. We also need to do the same in the draft adding a pocket pushing DT, and a LB. I think people are forgetting that backing up our excellent LB trio, are essentially just PS players. We have zero depth at LB.

The truth is that the league is littered with "run stuffers". The truth is we need to add players who can push the pocket and compliment the secondary we are building. Is Vince really going to be that player any more?

 

[mgteich]

A simple restructure would have us picking up an injured all-pro for $3.5M of new cap room for this year. The patriots may think that Wilfork is worth that money. The difference between a release and an extension is about $3.5M in 2014 cap room. We could get about $4M on an extension.

And yes, $4M is "enough". After all, if Wilfork were healthy, there would be no question about whether Wilfork should be extended.
======

$4.0M - currently available
$4.0M - Wilfork extension ($3.5M more is available for a DT if Wilfork is released)
$3.0M - extensions (McCourty, Gostkowski and Connolly come to mind)
$3.0M - restructure of Mankins
------
$14.0M
($4.0M) for Player 52 & 53, PS, reserves for injuries, rookies (net of savings from UDFA's)
--------
$10.0M budget (more available for a DT if Wilfork is released)

The "budget" could be $7M if the team chooses not to restructure Mankins, although to me this is a no-brainer.

There are other possible releases. Also, there are restructures and extensions that could squeeze out a bit more (Slater and Mayo).
=============

Given that the high cost players are gone, this is a reasonable amount of money. After all, Belichick secured almost all our free agent signings (all except Revis) for about that total.

Like I said, I don't think a simple restructure would get enough to sign the people we need. I hope I'm wrong

 

[mayoclinic]

A simple restructure would have us picking up an injured all-pro for $3.5M of new cap room for this year. The patriots may think that Wilfork is worth that money. The difference between a release and an extension is about $3.5M in 2014 cap room. We could get about $4M on an extension.

And yes, $4M is "enough". After all, if Wilfork were healthy, there would be no question about whether Wilfork should be extended.
======

$4.0M - currently available
$4.0M - Wilfork extension ($3.5M more is available for a DT if Wilfork is released)
$3.0M - extensions (McCourty, Gostkowski and Connolly come to mind)
$3.0M - restructure of Mankins
------
$14.0M
($4.0M) for Player 52 & 53, PS, reserves for injuries, rookies (net of savings from UDFA's)
--------
$10.0M budget (more available for a DT if Wilfork is released)

The "budget" could be $7M if the team chooses not to restructure Mankins, although to me this is a no-brainer.

There are other possible releases. Also, there are restructures and extensions that could squeeze out a bit more (Slater and Mayo).
=============

Given that the high cost players are gone, this is a reasonable amount of money. After all, Belichick secured almost all our free agent signings (all except Revis) for about that total.

I think it's foolish at this time to include a re-structure of Mankins in your calculations.

 

[mgteich]

And why is that?

Any restructure has exactly ZERO effect on cash outlay or on future decisions. All a restructure does is to move cap money from the present to the future.

Consider the situation of Wilfork. It is NOT, it is NOT, the $3.6M of sunk cost that makes the difference in decision-making (except by posters). It is the new money of $8M that is relevant.

And so it is with Mankins. Mankins will be worth his $7M of new money in 2015 or he won't.
The amount of cap money in addition is an cap accounting issue, no more.
==========

Let's be clear. It would make exactly ZERO difference if Wilfork's cap hit were now $8.0M instead of $11.6M. The decision-making process would be exactly the same.

I think it's foolish at this time to include a re-structure of Mankins in your calculations.

 

[Patsrock]

I think it's foolish at this time to include a re-structure of Mankins in your calculations.

I don't get why people are rushing to to restructure Mankins. Keep him at his number this year and in 2015 or 16 can release him and gain $7m in either year. I would rather not keep pushing money into other years when it is not needed.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't get why people are rushing to to restructure Mankins. Keep him at his number this year and in 2015 or 16 can release him and gain $7m in either year. I would rather not keep pushing money into other years when it is not needed.

At this point, I wouldn't push any money forward because if last year was any indication, this may be the last year Mankins is on the Patriots. He definitely didn't play up to his contract (at least in the passing game) and at his age and unwillingness to redo his deal, he is likely to be a cap casualty.

 

[mgteich]

You seem to believe that cap money "is not needed" in 2014. Others disagree.

Obviously, if the cap money isn't needed, Mankins' contract will not be restructured.

I don't get why people are rushing to to restructure Mankins. Keep him at his number this year and in 2015 or 16 can release him and gain $7m in either year. I would rather not keep pushing money into other years when it is not needed.

 

[Ring 6]

And why is that?

Any restructure has exactly ZERO effect on cash outlay or on future decisions. All a restructure does is to move cap money from the present to the future.

Consider the situation of Wilfork. It is NOT, it is NOT, the $3.6M of sunk cost that makes the difference in decision-making (except by posters). It is the new money of $8M that is relevant.

And so it is with Mankins. Mankins will be worth his $7M of new money in 2015 or he won't.
The amount of cap money in addition is an cap accounting issue, no more.
==========

Let's be clear. It would make exactly ZERO difference if Wilfork's cap hit were now $8.0M instead of $11.6M. The decision-making process would be exactly the same.

Given the ability to carry cap room forward to the next year, restructuring 'just in case' is a viable option.

 

[JR4]

I don't think PATs will restructure any contract or even release Vince unless
they find a FA they really want or they need a little space for the season
after signing rookies.
Restructuring contracts should be put off as long as possible because it
limits what they can do in the future. IMO
Don't forget if Revis works out and they want him in the future they will
need CAP space to do it from some place.

 

[mgteich]

I would suggest that you look at future caps and simply plug in Revis at $10M a year. We are in fine shape in 2015 and 2016. Also, the cap will likely increase by $20M-$25M in that period.

I don't think PATs will restructure any contract or even release Vince unless
they find a FA they really want or they need a little space for the season
after signing rookies.
Restructuring contracts should be put off as long as possible because it
limits what they can do in the future. IMO
Don't forget if Revis works out and they want him in the future they will
need CAP space to do it from some place.

 

[Patsrock]

You seem to believe that cap money "is not needed" in 2014. Others disagree.

Obviously, if the cap money isn't needed, Mankins' contract will not be restructured.

I think it could be used, but I would rather stop the practice of pushing money forward for players who might not be there in the future.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it could be used, but I would rather stop the practice of pushing money forward for players who might not be there in the future.

Stop the practice? When did we start the process?

 

[signbabybrady]

I haven't seen much "hating on Vince". He's acknowledged by everyone to be one of the all-time great Pats, and he's been treated (and compensated) accordingly by the Pats. The question is whether he is physically able to continue being a factor. I don't think that "clearly the Patriots still think he has value to them"; I don't think they know if he has value or not, and they haven't cut him because it makes no sense to do so until they either know for sure what his physical status is, or if they absolutely need the space.

Wondering whether future production will be remotely close to past production post injury, and asking what it is likely to be worth, is not "hating on Vince".

Not sure how people more concerned about 7 Mil in cap space than Vince isnt hate.

Not sure how arguing over whether he is 350 or 400 LBS isnt hate.

Again clearly the Patriots see some sort of value in the player otherwise he would have been cut already. I assume they know his weight and I assume they have a value they think he is worth that is more than $0 and for anyone on here to treat one of our favorite players over the last 10 years as if he is worth nothing is clearly hating on the player.

The idea that he is worthless is insulting and not fair to the player or the team.