Panthers may not tag Peppers (merged)

[MoLewisrocks]

This is probably why we wont see Peppers as a Pat.... There is no way we pay Peppers a 100 mil contract, while brady and wilfork sit and wait...

Final eight plan reduces Peppers' options by 25 percent | ProFootballTalk.com

It will be interesting to see if anyone gets that level of contract or interest this season. There are only so many high revenue teams who could manage these deals with there upwards of $40M in guarantees absent the specter of a lockout... I think the 2010 FA market will be very different and disappointing to many players given the labor uncertainty. I think too that owners are fully expecting the end game in any CBA to include a scaled back cap and cap increases going forward.

This team in particular will not do anything that adversely impacts it's chances of remaining competitive through 2014 and beyond. They divide their resources between units depending on approach and need and while they can and will adjust the allocations periodically to reflect existing production, they don't generally wildly alter the format. They did for Moss and so far it hasn't had the desired effect. He is clearly earning $4-5M that previously would have been available to be spent elsewhere, like on defense (in the good old days). It's also why they have always been so ruthless in cutting dead weight or requiring players to take pay cuts or restructured deals if their production isn't matching their contract value.

Brady knows that their formula tops out with the QB, a position they determined should take up no more than 10-12% of cap on average. He's learned to live with that formula. No other player here will equal or top that mark...because none will impact the game as consistently as he does. Ergo, nobody not named Brady is getting a deal here that averages more than $11-12M per going forward in anticipation of a cap scaling back to under $120M.

In addition to factoring in the top mark for the franchise, there is the matter of the entire % devoted to any one unit. A $12M LB would necessitate a unit that otherwise operates for peanuts. It was Ty Law's cap through 2004 that dictated our making due approach in the remainder of the secondary. That meant dumping an underproducing Milloy and starting lots of draftees including mid to late rounders and even UDFA's. And it meant mining the aging veteran FA market for guys who hopefully had more left in the tank than their previous employer anticipated...If you ramp up the talent in any one unit, you are forced to scale back investment, in dollars or draft picks, somewhere else within that unit. Or you scale back your investment in other units or in overall quality of depth. It's not nuclear physics, it's simple math.

This organization has long range plans that involve layering contracts and spreading risk while still persuing reward. Whether fans appreciate it or not, they know the system has stood them in damn good stead throughout the preceeding decade. They aren't going to change the way they operate dramatically because fans keep whining about windows... I'm sure they were disappointed with the way last season unfolded, but they likely know that the problem(s) wasn't just any one thing they can quick fix by throwing a big ole chunk of money (they will have to live with for the next 5-6 seasons) at it.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

Just curious - is anything that would prevent a team from signing a player to a big contract then paying him all the guaranteed money in 2010 so that when (I assume it's not an "if") the cap resumes most of the money is already gone?

In other words, why not give Brady a new deal with $40m+ in guaranteed money and pay all of the bonus in 2010? Then when the new cap comes into place, he'd be signed for 4+ years but most of the money would off the cap already. Ditto for Wilfork, or Peppers.

 

[upstater1]

Just curious - is anything that would prevent a team from signing a player to a big contract then paying him all the guaranteed money in 2010 so that when (I assume it's not an "if") the cap resumes most of the money is already gone?

In other words, why not give Brady a new deal with $40m+ in guaranteed money and pay all of the bonus in 2010? Then when the new cap comes into place, he'd be signed for 4+ years but most of the money would off the cap already. Ditto for Wilfork, or Peppers.

I'm sure there are rules in place for this, but one would be the 50% rule.

Unless you plan on paying Brady $20 million a year you can't reduce his contract by more than 50%

 

[D-Money]

I am sure this team once again wont address the DE situation.I would like Peppers to be our DE and we could draft another 3-4 outside LB through the draft.

 

[Rob0729]

Further reason why Peppers won't get nearly what people think:

Union's lockout talk could affect 2010 contracts | ProFootballTalk.com

Sounds like the league has collectively decided not to give out big contracts with lots of guarantees until the CBA issue is resolved. It may suck to be a free agent this offseason and being franchised and waiting until there is a new CBA may be the way to go.

What we might see are a lot of players getting one year deals that are larger than usual with options similiar to what Donte Stallworth got with the Pats.

 

[Matw]

If the price tag isn't outrageous, I say we should go get him.

 

[Sivy]

I like how everyone on here says "we should pay, or "we shouldnt pay" like it effects their wallet. No cap? I say spend that *****...sign the beast!

 

[The Dynasty]

I am sure this team once again wont address the DE situation.I would like Peppers to be our DE and we could draft another 3-4 outside LB through the draft.

It all depends how much money he wants, if it is within reason then I am all for it along with drafting another 3-4 OLB. We definitely need play makers on defense and Peppers is a play maker.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Further reason why Peppers won't get nearly what people think:

Union's lockout talk could affect 2010 contracts | ProFootballTalk.com

Sounds like the league has collectively decided not to give out big contracts with lots of guarantees until the CBA issue is resolved. It may suck to be a free agent this offseason and being franchised and waiting until there is a new CBA may be the way to go.

What we might see are a lot of players getting one year deals that are larger than usual with options similiar to what Donte Stallworth got with the Pats.

I've been saying this for a while now based on it's only common sense...Ditto the RFA's, who are waaaaaay more screwed on average than the franchise tag babies. Of course lots of them could have probably forseen this predicament and taken a little less a lot earlier, but their agents and the NFLPA likely talked them out of that...selling the uncapped year as some panacea...

 

[Rob0729]

I've been saying this for a while now based on it's only common sense...Ditto the RFA's, who are waaaaaay more screwed on average than the franchise tag babies. Of course lots of them could have probably forseen this predicament and taken a little less a lot earlier, but their agents and the NFLPA likely talked them out of that...selling the uncapped year as some panacea...

This is why I still think, even with all the posturing, that a CBA agreement could come before March 5th. A lot of players are screwed without a new CBA and the owners hold most of the cards. All these former UFAs that are now RFA get hosed big time in an uncapped year and there are enough of them to put pressure on leadership to get a deal done ASAP.

 

[satz]

He played great near the entire second half of the season, not just televised games. The guy also still had 10.5 sacks.

He was very effective against tamba bay. 3 sacks aka banta against bills like. the TB line which stinks had issues with him.

Again you said he had a slow start but putting up 7 sacks in first 8 weeks and then got healthy ? he got 2 sacks in december .

So you would rather tank next year grooming a OLB for 2011? You do realize that most DEs/OLBs don't have great rookie years.

we traded seymour for a 2011 pick not even a 2010 pick so 2011 seems to be the goal from what i see.

Besides, if there is no cap and the Pats can get him to sign a three year deal that will allow them to get out of it in two years with minimal cap hit, what do you care what they spend? It is Bob Kraft's money.

if they want him they can sign him but i honestly pay vince,mankins then this guy. He made 18.2 million last year !!! how much pay cut is he going to take > also if he cannot play OLB will you will be fine with him being a thrid down player.


Also, I expect salaries to decrease with the odds of the new CBA either stalling cap growth or decreasing the cap very likely.

Seymour is a DE and both Peppers and Thomas are OLB (at least in the Pats' system). Besides, Peppers is not all speed. He is very good at making the angles and getting leverage against the opposing tackles. Besides, comparing Thomas who has had several injuries to Peppers isn't neccessarily the case.

again if till he learns play in running down will you be okay him playing 3rd down or cutting if he does not pan out.

You win your division by winning the most games. That means you build your team to beat any team in the league not just your division foes.

Besides, who said that getting Peppers would stop the Pats from having a good run defense. They had a pretty good one this year. Adding Peppers wouldn't stop them from being good again. Mankins is irrelevant to this conversation.




So now the Pats should build a team not to win, but win without being embarrassing? The Bills had 105 yards rushing the last time they played the Patriots. Not all that bad, but certainly not embarrassing to the Pats. In the first game of the season, the Bills rushed for 90 yards vs. the Pats. Last year in the first meeting, the Bills rushed for 60 yards (although they rushed for 161 yards the second time, but the Pats still blew them out 13-0).

Sounds like we should pray we never run into jets or ravens as we cannot stop the run anyway. At the end of 1st quater did i miss the the pats trying to get the ball back and ravens ran 6 times in a row getting 2 fist down and stopping the pats offence from seeing the field . We are weak against the run ,

 

[MoLewisrocks]

This is why I still think, even with all the posturing, that a CBA agreement could come before March 5th. A lot of players are screwed without a new CBA and the owners hold most of the cards. All these former UFAs that are now RFA get hosed big time in an uncapped year and there are enough of them to put pressure on leadership to get a deal done ASAP.

But see, that would work for us, too...because we didn't anticipate anything or shift gears to play in an imaginary window. We are in great shape cap and cash wise to compete for FA or extend our own core players and FA if they do get a new CBA done. And we will continue to be because the discipline of the system plays best to a capped league with limited annual growth that rewards overall organizational excellence.

 

[patsfan-1982]

demarcus ware, is the best OLB in the NFL he just signs a deal with the cowboys for 11 million a year. peppers is going to want at lest 12 million a year to play a spot that he has never played. befor. can he cover can he set the edge. ?


BB is not going to pay a one trick poney. that much money just to get sacks i don't think he would be any better then AD in this system.

 

[D-Money]

I dont think teams will overpay for Peppers.I would give him 8 to 9 million per year max.

 

[pats63]

I know it's Kraft's money.Bill spends it wisely.let's work with in and the draft.GO PATS!!!!

 

[Rob0729]

He was very effective against tamba bay. 3 sacks aka banta against bills like. the TB line which stinks had issues with him.

Again you said he had a slow start but putting up 7 sacks in first 8 weeks and then got healthy ? he got 2 sacks in december .

Sacks aren't everything. QB pressures are sometimes the far more important stat. He didn't sack Favre, but he was in his face all day and forced him to make stupid throws.

we traded seymour for a 2011 pick not even a 2010 pick so 2011 seems to be the goal from what i see.

The Pats are not tanking 2010 for 2011. The Pats traded for a 2011 pick because they were gambling there would a strong rookie salary cap in that draft where having a top 5 pick wouldn't be as much of a gamble. The Seymour trade had nothing to do with whether the Pats thought they were going to be a championship contender in 2010 or not. Belichick wants to be a contender every year.

if they want him they can sign him but i honestly pay vince,mankins then this guy. He made 18.2 million last year !!! how much pay cut is he going to take > also if he cannot play OLB will you will be fine with him being a thrid down player.

I expect Peppers to take a significant pay cut. What he made last year is irrelevant. If Peppers is expecting to get close to $18 million a year and won't play for anyone until he gets it, his career is officially over. He will never play in the NFL ever again.

Whether he can play OLB is not up to you or me. It is whether Belichick thinks he can play. If Belichick thinks he can, I am on board. If he doesn't, it really doesn't matter if I disagree.

Also, I expect salaries to decrease with the odds of the new CBA either stalling cap growth or decreasing the cap very likely.

So you agree that Peppers probably won't get nearly as much as people expect?

again if till he learns play in running down will you be okay him playing 3rd down or cutting if he does not pan out.

Why are you so sure he can't play running downs? He played running downs with the Panthers. His speed might actually make him more of an asset with him starting in an upright position.

Sounds like we should pray we never run into jets or ravens as we cannot stop the run anyway. At the end of 1st quater did i miss the the pats trying to get the ball back and ravens ran 6 times in a row getting 2 fist down and stopping the pats offence from seeing the field . We are weak against the run ,

Ummmm..... No, but we still have to play pass happy teams like the Colts, Saints, Chargers, etc. This is becoming a pass first league. This year had a record breaking 10 QBs who passed for 4,000 yards or more. The last time the Pats won a Super Bowl, there were 5. The games vs. the Saints and Colts showed how vunerable the Pats were against the pass with no pass rush. Very few teams can beat other teams while running all over them. The Jets had the #1 rushing offense in the league and they had to back into the playoffs.

In today's NFL, you don't care if teams rush on you as long as you shut down their passing offense and mount a passing offense yourself. The league has changed and there aren't many great running teams and most of them who do are not the top offenses in the league. The five leading rushers were on mediocre to average offenses this season. Chris Johnson was #1 (the Titans had the 12th ranked offense), Cederic Benson was #2 (the Bengals had the 24th ranked offense), Stephen Jackson was #3 (the Rams had the 29th ranked offense), Thomas Jones was #4 (the Jets had the 20th ranked offense), Maurice Jones-Drew was #5 (the Jags had the 18th ranked offense).

 

[Rob0729]

demarcus ware, is the best OLB in the NFL he just signs a deal with the cowboys for 11 million a year. peppers is going to want at lest 12 million a year to play a spot that he has never played. befor. can he cover can he set the edge. ?


BB is not going to pay a one trick poney. that much money just to get sacks i don't think he would be any better then AD in this system.

Again, Peppers can want $100 million a year. Unless Daniel Snyder decides to empty his bank accounts and doom his Redskins to cap hell for a shot to win this year, Peppers isn't going to get anywhere close to $12 million a year. DeMarcus Ware is arguably the best OLB in football, 4-5 years younger than Peppers, and signed by Jerry Jones (who by the way is strapped by the final 8 rule).

Why are people so hung up with what Peppers' wants with these outlandish numbers that he isn't going to get? Do people really think that when no one offers him $12 million a year, that he will sit out rather than play.

All signs points to teams not spending money this offseason. There will be more teams taking advantage of the fact that there is no salary cap floor than that there is no salary cap ceiling. Eight teams are pretty much forced to sit out of the high priced free agent market because of the rules of the uncapped year and at least two of them would be teams that could potentially drive up Peppers' price. Very few free agents are going to cash in this offseason.

No team is going to want to give Peppers a $15 million bonus this year and have a lockout in 2011 where Peppers returns to play at 32 after missing a year. With no team willing to give Peppers that huge upfront bonus, he isn't going to make $12 million a year unless he is willing to take it in straight salary with no guarantees or option bonuses in subsequent years. If that is the case, the Pats can easily sign him if they want without ruining future cap.

 

[satz]

I expect Peppers to take a significant pay cut. What he made last year is irrelevant. If Peppers is expecting to get close to $18 million a year and won't play for anyone until he gets it, his career is officially over. He will never play in the NFL ever again.

Whether he can play OLB is not up to you or me. It is whether Belichick thinks he can play. If Belichick thinks he can, I am on board. If he doesn't, it really doesn't matter if I disagree.


So you agree that Peppers probably won't get nearly as much as people expect?

yeah i do the thing is if he says he is a OLB he takes a big paycut. He was paid 18.2 million last year as a DE. DE flat out make more than a OLB. His agent and him will go crazy is he is willing to step down. I would not even pay him 8 million but that is me. The one more point we forget is all last decade the pats worked the cap the actual payroll has never gone over 100 million. this seem to be something pats do.

with brady coming up he is going to be the true big contract and everything else is secondary,peppers will not make more than brady which i am sure.

i think our team has gone away from developing players and now too many empty places. i rather draft 2 or 3 guys and let them fight it out.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wilfork has 7.5 sacks in his 6 years. And he probably has 4 or 5 roughing the passer penalties. So he doesn't give you much on 3rd and 6. If there was ever a year they needed him to step up rushing the passer it was this year. And he had 0 sacks. I'd actually say that Peppers is more useful on 3rd and 1 than Wilfork is on 3rd and 6.

1.) The team pulls Wilfork, so his sack totals will naturally be lower.

2.) Collapsing the pocket isn't a stat, but it changes the way a QB can maneuver.

3.) This season is a perfect example for Wilfork. He played only half the snaps. How was the pass rush up the middle with him on the sidelines?

Problem with Peppers is that he just turned 30 and he's going to want something very similar to what Haynesworth got last year - 4/48 with $41 mil guaranteed. I wouldn't do that.

And he'd have to learn a new position, and he sucks against the run, and he takes plays off.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Again, Peppers can want $100 million a year. Unless Daniel Snyder decides to empty his bank accounts and doom his Redskins to cap hell for a shot to win this year, Peppers isn't going to get anywhere close to $12 million a year. DeMarcus Ware is arguably the best OLB in football, 4-5 years younger than Peppers, and signed by Jerry Jones (who by the way is strapped by the final 8 rule).

Why are people so hung up with what Peppers' wants with these outlandish numbers that he isn't going to get? Do people really think that when no one offers him $12 million a year, that he will sit out rather than play.

All signs points to teams not spending money this offseason. There will be more teams taking advantage of the fact that there is no salary cap floor than that there is no salary cap ceiling. Eight teams are pretty much forced to sit out of the high priced free agent market because of the rules of the uncapped year and at least two of them would be teams that could potentially drive up Peppers' price. Very few free agents are going to cash in this offseason.

No team is going to want to give Peppers a $15 million bonus this year and have a lockout in 2011 where Peppers returns to play at 32 after missing a year. With no team willing to give Peppers that huge upfront bonus, he isn't going to make $12 million a year unless he is willing to take it in straight salary with no guarantees or option bonuses in subsequent years. If that is the case, the Pats can easily sign him if they want without ruining future cap.

ok lets he signs for 7 or 8 million a year. i even think that is to much to pay for a guy that would have to play a spot he has never played befor. and like you said he will be 31 next year.


look at Aaron Kampman, with the packers he went from averaging 70 tackels and 13 sacks the last 3 years as a 4-3 DE to 40 tackels and 3.5 sacks this year at 3-4 OLB not every one can make that switch from DE to OLB