Panthers may not tag Peppers (merged)

[BelichickFan]

Peppers is useless on 3rd and 1. Wilfork helps your team avoid 3rd and 1.

True - but Wilfork is useless on 3rd and 6. In today's league I would take the pass rusher/athlete over the fat run stopper (although I'd love to keep a happy Wilfork also).

 

[The Dynasty]

Your facts are off.

1. Bodden didn't make league minimum $750K last year. He made around $2.25M last year. And he specifically chose to sign a 1 year contract with a "no franchise" clause because he couldn't get what he considered to be adequate value on a long-term deal, and decided to "prove his worth". Having proven his worth, he now wants to be adequately paid.

New England Patriots Player Profile: Leigh Bodden

2. Bodden isn't a shut down corner by any means, but he is, as you say, a "quality NFL CB". And the going rate for "quality NFL CB"'s is around $6-7M/year. Jabari Greer got 4 years at $24M from New Orleans last year. Dominique Foxworth got 4 years at $28M from Baltimore. Neither of those guys is a "shut down corner" by any means. Asante Samuel, who is not a "shut down corner" but who is a terrific ball hawk, got 6 years at $57M. Terrance Newman got 6 years at $50M from Dallas. Nnamdi Asomugha got 3 years at $45M from Oakland. So the price for anything approaching a "shut down" CB increases considerably.

That's the market value. The Pats may not choose to pay it, but someone else will. Quality NFL CBs don't grow on trees.

1. My source says that he made the league minimum, but I can see other links that say what you have. Yes, I agree that he signed a one year deal to prove his worth and he indeed did do that this year. He does deserve to be paid for it, but I dont think it should be for as much as you say.

New England Patriots agree to deal with Leigh Bodden - ESPN

2. As you say Bodden isnt like Newman, Samuel or Asomugha so he isnt getting any where close to what those guys are making. It all depends at whose contract you look at to determine the market value for corner backs. I think what you proposed $6-7 million, is a bit high. I dont think Bodden is worth much more than $5 million a year, you could probably find someone that could do what Bodden can do for less than that.

 

[The Dynasty]

I'm disappointed that everyone seems to have missed how valuable Kevin Faulk has been to the franchise. Whenever we need a 3rd down conversion, who do we usually go to? And who usually gets it for us? Faulk has been a big reason why our offense has been successful.

Faulk isnt going anywhere, he isnt the type of player to demand a lot of money and looking to play else where. His career is winding down and he will finish as a Patriot.

 

[Deus Irae]

True - but Wilfork is useless on 3rd and 6. In today's league I would take the pass rusher/athlete over the fat run stopper (although I'd love to keep a happy Wilfork also).

Wilfork is not useless on 3rd and 6th. He can collapse the pocket from the middle. New England simply employs different packages. Big difference.

As for the run stopper argument, it's pretty clear that run stoppers are still much more important than pass rushers, just as they always have been.

 

[Scouse Patriot]

Vince Wilfork is really so much more than the fat run stopper in a 34 defence.

 

[mayoclinic]

1. My source says that he made the league minimum, but I can see other links that say what you have. Yes, I agree that he signed a one year deal to prove his worth and he indeed did do that this year. He does deserve to be paid for it, but I dont think it should be for as much as you say.

New England Patriots agree to deal with Leigh Bodden - ESPN

2. As you say Bodden isnt like Newman, Samuel or Asomugha so he isnt getting any where close to what those guys are making. It all depends at whose contract you look at to determine the market value for corner backs. I think what you proposed $6-7 million, is a bit high. I dont think Bodden is worth much more than $5 million a year, you could probably find someone that could do what Bodden can do for less than that.

The Bodden deal was initially mistakenly reported as being for $750K. That was subsequently clarified:

Breaking down Bodden deal - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

Here's a Mike Reiss piece which also refers to a $2.25M salary for Bodden for 2009:

Leigh Bodden was one of the New England Patriots' most consistent players this season - ESPN Boston

Here's a reference to it from the Providence Journal:

Patriots-Jets: Bodden really had Sanchez’s number | New England Patriots | projo.com | The Providence Journal

If you don't think Bodden is worth more than $5M/year, then assume he will leave. Someone will offer more. And you will have my vote for GM if you can replace him with someone as good for that kind of money. Among UFAs (assuming a capped year), Dunta Robinson will undoubtedly want more than Bodden. 33 year old Dre' Bly? 35 year old Nick Harper? 31 year old Ken Lucas? 34 year old Deshea Townsend? That's about it for UFAs this year. Bodden's younger and better right now than any of them by a considerable margin, not to mention the benefits of having some continuity in the secondary for a change.

 

[Deus Irae]

Vince Wilfork is really so much more than the fat run stopper in a 34 defence.

His being moved out to end on occasions because Seymour's replacements couldn't get the job done should demonstrate that to people, but it gets ignored.

 

[BelichickFan]

His being moved out to end on occasions because Seymour's replacements couldn't get the job done should demonstrate that to people, but it gets ignored.

He was moved out there against specific matchups; as a DE he makes a really good NT. Whether we keep Wilfork or not we need a real RDE because no-one we had was good enough there, including Wilfork.

 

[The Dynasty]

The Bodden deal was initially mistakenly reported as being for $750K. That was subsequently clarified:

Breaking down Bodden deal - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

Here's a Mike Reiss piece which also refers to a $2.25M salary for Bodden for 2009:

Leigh Bodden was one of the New England Patriots' most consistent players this season - ESPN Boston

Here's a reference to it from the Providence Journal:

Patriots-Jets: Bodden really had Sanchez’s number | New England Patriots | projo.com | The Providence Journal

If you don't think Bodden is worth more than $5M/year, then assume he will leave. Someone will offer more. And you will have my vote for GM if you can replace him with someone as good for that kind of money. Among UFAs (assuming a capped year), Dunta Robinson will undoubtedly want more than Bodden. 33 year old Dre' Bly? 35 year old Nick Harper? 31 year old Ken Lucas? 34 year old Deshea Townsend? That's about it for UFAs this year. Bodden's younger and better right now than any of them by a considerable margin, not to mention the benefits of having some continuity in the secondary for a change.

Who said that the Patriots needed to replace Bodden through FA? Look at who they have returning. Butler, Springs, Wilhite, Wheatley. Realistically you could go into the 2010 season with just those players, although you would have a pretty weak CB position. You could add another CB through the draft with one of our seconds and have your top CBs be Butler, Springs and the draft pick. The Patriots are all about value for their money, I cannot see them wanting to spend $6-7 million on a CB when they have 4 others on their roster and the potential to draft another in the second round.

 

[slash83]

Who said that the Patriots needed to replace Bodden through FA? Look at who they have returning. Butler, Springs, Wilhite, Wheatley. Realistically you could go into the 2010 season with just those players, although you would have a pretty weak CB position. You could add another CB through the draft with one of our seconds and have your top CBs be Butler, Springs and the draft pick. The Patriots are all about value for their money, I cannot see them wanting to spend $6-7 million on a CB when they have 4 others on their roster and the potential to draft another in the second round.

As you said we could go into the season with those players but expect the secondary to be one of the worst in the league. God knows if Springs can hold up for 10 games let alone an entire season. Wilhite struggled last season, Im not going to write him off but I would feel ok with him as the 3rd corner at best. Wheatley I dunno what the hell happened with him kind of a forgotten man in the secondary. Butler looks good but I dont think he is ready to be the teams number one corner. No way Bodden stays for 5 mil per year imo, I think it is going to take 6-7 million to keep him around. I wouldnt go higher then 7 though, he isnt good enough to justify anything over 7.

 

[The Dynasty]

His being moved out to end on occasions because Seymour's replacements couldn't get the job done should demonstrate that to people, but it gets ignored.

Seymour's replacements were injured in some games and that is why Wilfork had to move out to end.

 

[The Dynasty]

As you said we could go into the season with those players but expect the secondary to be one of the worst in the league. God knows if Springs can hold up for 10 games let alone an entire season. Wilhite struggled last season, Im not going to write him off but I would feel ok with him as the 3rd corner at best. Wheatley I dunno what the hell happened with him kind of a forgotten man in the secondary. Butler looks good but I dont think he is ready to be the teams number one corner. No way Bodden stays for 5 mil per year imo, I think it is going to take 6-7 million to keep him around. I wouldnt go higher then 7 though, he isnt good enough to justify anything over 7.

I agree with what you are saying with Wilhite not being very good. Wheatley I think could be a decent 3rd CB. I think Butler could be the teams number one corner, he is very talented. Springs' heath can be questioned, but when he played this season I though he didnt do a bad job. To me signing Bodden for any more than $5 million isnt worth it when you have that many CB's who are young and havent quite developed yet. To address the weak CB position I would look to add another CB through the draft and hope that he could make an impact right away. My corners would go like this, Butler, Springs, draft pick, Wheatley, Wilhite.

 

[slash83]

I agree with what you are saying with Wilhite not being very good. Wheatley I think could be a decent 3rd CB. I think Butler could be the teams number one corner, he is very talented. Springs' heath can be questioned, but when he played this season I though he didnt do a bad job. To me signing Bodden for any more than $5 million isnt worth it when you have that many CB's who are young and havent quite developed yet. To address the weak CB position I would look to add another CB through the draft and hope that he could make an impact right away. My corners would go like this, Butler, Springs, draft pick, Wheatley, Wilhite.

Springs did look good last season playing sparingly, I just dont think the team can afford going into next season having to heavily rely on him. I just dont want to see the secondary struggle like it did when Asante left to free agency with nobody in place to adequately replace him. Locking up Bodden long term will give the team a solid 1 2 combo with him and Butler for many years to come, I think you overpay a bit if you have to to ensure that.

 

[The Dynasty]

Springs did look good last season playing sparingly, I just dont think the team can afford going into next season having to heavily rely on him. I just dont want to see the secondary struggle like it did when Asante left to free agency with nobody in place to adequately replace him. Locking up Bodden long term will give the team a solid 1 2 combo with him and Butler for many years to come, I think you overpay a bit if you have to to ensure that.

I see what you are saying about worrying about the secondary if Bodden leaves. In any other off season you could live with over paying for locking up Bodden long term. This off season is different than any other I can remember the Patriots having with all the needs they need to address. You have to worry about bringing Wilfork back, getting a pass rusher, another LB, a WR or 2 and then bringing back players on the team from last season that are FA's now like Ghost, Mankins, Faulk, etc. I just wouldnt over invest in Bodden in an off season that you have plenty of other needs that you need money to spend.

 

[mayoclinic]

I agree with what you are saying with Wilhite not being very good. Wheatley I think could be a decent 3rd CB. I think Butler could be the teams number one corner, he is very talented. Springs' heath can be questioned, but when he played this season I though he didnt do a bad job. To me signing Bodden for any more than $5 million isnt worth it when you have that many CB's who are young and havent quite developed yet. To address the weak CB position I would look to add another CB through the draft and hope that he could make an impact right away. My corners would go like this, Butler, Springs, draft pick, Wheatley, Wilhite.

So, with multiple needs at OLB, ILB, OL, RB, and WR, and the secondary being one of the solid points of the defense last year, instead of paying Bodden $6-7M/year you would lowball him at $5M so that he walks and then have to use a high draft pick on an CB "and hope he could make an impact right away"? And how many rookie CBs make an impact right away in BB's system? Butler didn't, and he was considered a 1st round talent. Wheatley was a 2nd round pick, and still hasn't done anything. Samuel took 3 years to develop. Other than Joe Haden, there are no impact CBs in this year's draft. So we'll have to use a high draft pick on a position that we could have kept stable, we'll have one less pick to use on other areasd of need, and the odds are that the guy we draft won't be nearly as good as Bodden for some time.

Great plan. Sure sounds like "value" to me.

I agree with Slash83. If Bodden wants more than $7M/year then he walks. I doubt that will be the case however. He wants continuity and he wants to play for a playoff team, so as long as he feels valued he'll re-sign. But if we low-ball him he'll leave, and we'll be screwed.

 

[The Dynasty]

So, with multiple needs at OLB, ILB, OL, RB, and WR, and the secondary being one of the solid points of the defense last year, instead of paying Bodden $6-7M/year you would lowball him at $5M so that he walks and then have to use a high draft pick on an CB "and hope he could make an impact right away"? And how many rookie CBs make an impact right away in BB's system? Butler didn't, and he was considered a 1st round talent. Wheatley was a 2nd round pick, and still hasn't done anything. Samuel took 3 years to develop. Other than Joe Haden, there are no impact CBs in this year's draft. So we'll have to use a high draft pick on a position that we could have kept stable, we'll have one less pick to use on other areasd of need, and the odds are that the guy we draft won't be nearly as good as Bodden for some time.

Great plan. Sure sounds like "value" to me.

I agree with Slash83. If Bodden wants more than $7M/year then he walks. I doubt that will be the case however. He wants continuity and he wants to play for a playoff team, so as long as he feels valued he'll re-sign. But if we low-ball him he'll leave, and we'll be screwed.

First off if I was Bodden I would be pretty satisfied with making $5 million a year. Asking for much more than that would be pretty greedy of him. Being a CB and making $5 million isnt too bad.

The secondary was the best part of the defense last season so that is the area that doesnt really need the most improvement. Bodden was a part of that but he wasnt the most essential part of it He could be replaced in my opinion. Butler could step in as the number one corner. I disagree with what you said and I feel like Butler contributed this season. Springs baring injury could be a solid number 2 corner. Then I would say use one of your 2nd round picks and draft a CB and take the risk that he can come in and contribute. You still have Wheatley and Wilhite on the roster if that player does not work out. Wheatley and Wilhite are young and havent fully developed yet, they could play roles in the CB rotation as well. If Bodden was essential to the Patriots secondary then I could see overpaying for him, but when he wasnt the most essential player in the secondary and when they are many areas that need to be addressed over paying him would be a bad move for the team

 

[furley]

I agree that Peppers' price tag may be too high and therefore not worth going after. If it is in reason I am all for it. What I am saying is if we let Wilfork walk so we have the money to sign Peppers that leaves a huge void on the DL, that we would also need to address right away.

Out of the players you named Wilfork is by far the most valuable player. He is the most valuable player on the Patriot defense. Getting him back on the team next season is the first priority in the off season. After that then you can start worrying about the second tier players like Ghost, Mankins, Watson, Bodden and Faulk. Out of those guys I think Faulk is a sure thing coming back. Bodden and Mankins will most likely be back as well. Watson I am not so sure about. I could see him wanting to play somewhere where he would be catching more passes instead of blocking

I see two scenarios as a possibility but probably more wishful thinking.


Scenario #1: You manage to draft Dan Willaims, you now have Williams and Brace to provide insurance in case you're unable to sign Wilfork longterm and the opportunity to trade him arises.

Scenario #2: You manage to draft Carlos Dunlap, and you decide not to pursue Peppers. Somehow, a deal is struck and Wilfork is signed longterm.


I feel that the first scenario is more probable since Williams is likely a second round selection (maybe, more like a third round) at best. However, a platoon of Brace and Williams isn't as appealing as Wilfork as a returning starter. Still, that isn't bad... Actually, here's a third scenario...


Scenario #3: You pursue Aubrayo Franklin or Ryan Pickett to replace Wilfork if you presume he'll be traded. You've Franklin or Pickett and Brace but you still decide not to pursue Peppers. This is based on the idea that one of Dunlap, Greg Hardy or Derrick Morgan is available in the first, second or fourth rounds.


In the end, I don't see Belichick signing Peppers. He'll try to keep Wilfork... I'd mentioned Peppers only as a possible way to save face from not resigning Wilfork and trading Seymour.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

So, with multiple needs at OLB, ILB, OL, RB, and WR, and the secondary being one of the solid points of the defense last year, instead of paying Bodden $6-7M/year you would lowball him at $5M so that he walks and then have to use a high draft pick on an CB "and hope he could make an impact right away"? And how many rookie CBs make an impact right away in BB's system? Butler didn't, and he was considered a 1st round talent. Wheatley was a 2nd round pick, and still hasn't done anything. Samuel took 3 years to develop. Other than Joe Haden, there are no impact CBs in this year's draft. So we'll have to use a high draft pick on a position that we could have kept stable, we'll have one less pick to use on other areasd of need, and the odds are that the guy we draft won't be nearly as good as Bodden for some time.

Great plan. Sure sounds like "value" to me.

I agree with Slash83. If Bodden wants more than $7M/year then he walks. I doubt that will be the case however. He wants continuity and he wants to play for a playoff team, so as long as he feels valued he'll re-sign. But if we low-ball him he'll leave, and we'll be screwed.

I just can't really see BB paying Bodden around 6-7 million per year. Dynasty has a point that Butler should be able to start this year and Wilhite/Wheatley should be better and Springs was pretty good when he played. If that's the way it goes down, then I definitely want to grab Peterson in the 2011 draft with that Raiders pick. Peterson and Butler starting at CB with Wilhite and Wheatley would be a very nice looking young secondary.

 

[Deus Irae]

He was moved out there against specific matchups; as a DE he makes a really good NT. Whether we keep Wilfork or not we need a real RDE because no-one we had was good enough there, including Wilfork.

Actually, when Wilfork was moved to DE, the move worked, and it was generally done because the player original manning the position proved inadequate to the task. Wilfork was, in fact, "good enough there". Whether he'd be "good enough there" if teams had a full season to make him move outside on sweeps and the like is a more dicey question.

I do agree with you that the decision to trade Seymour left the defense without a 2nd defensive end worthy of being called a starter, and that was a large part of the reason for the line's struggles all season long. Hopefully Belichick will realize that you can't just put anyone in at DE and think that player will get the job done just because he plays for Bill Belichick, especially when the team doesn't have the linebackers to make the plays near the line.

 

[upstater1]

Signing Dansby would open up the Patriots draft board considerably.

They could devote their attention to DE/OLB and WR.