OT: Saints bounty program not just the saints but is widespread problem

[patman52]

Dear shelteredone54,

A memo went out to all teams. Let me explain how that works with a real world example based on my office.

HR would generate memos regularly. Once a year everyone got a memo "reminding" them of the sexual harassment policy.

What I, and everyone I know, did was check to see if that is on everyone's desk or just mine. If just mine this is serious. If everyone you can throw out the memo because you already understand the sexual harassment policy. (Or the 401k policy, whatever.)

The league sent it to all 32 teams, proving it was meaningless.

It was not one memo, but multiple memos. When I get a memo/email from my boss that was also sent to all the other engineers that a some engineers are violating rules by doing something specific, no one would throw that out or discard it. the memo did not come from the front desk attendant but the boss. When the boss sends out something like that it will more than likely be a the major topic of discussion for a few days.

I don't buy BB's answer one bit. The guy is a great coach and I hope he never leaves, but he screwed the dog on this one. I believe all the coaches in the nfl knew BB was doing this and I believe BB knew what other teams had been doing this in the past and compensated for it..
The pats were not being secretive about it the camera that was being used was huge and not some little handi-cam thing. BB thumbed his nose at Godell and Godell showed BB who the boss was.

 

[pherein]

Apparently you've taken so many lumps you now see things that aren't there (as apparently does the OP). Nowhere in this piece did it elude to any other teams doing what the Saints did. We know that lots of teams had player run pay for performance pools in existence. That is a violation of the cap rules. But it is not remotely on the same level as a bounty system run by and even participated in by coaches.

I still can't grasp that you think other teams don't have, or have had a bounty program. Bets made on the field to take someone else out, even after players have said its not uncommon. And there is no evidence of a bounty program on the saints. Thats also going to come out soon.
You feel superior in your position them come to our site and debate it. Yes, a lot more bias , but much more information than here. Posting here is easy on this subject. I just don't have the time right now to check all the sites I go to, and some are blocked by the censors at times.

I can see you feel strongly about this, but some of things you are saying are not facts, but they work just fine here.

 

[Clonamery]

It was not one memo, but multiple memos. When I get a memo/email from my boss that was also sent to all the other engineers that a some engineers are violating rules by doing something specific, no one would throw that out or discard it. the memo did not come from the front desk attendant but the boss. When the boss sends out something like that it will more than likely be a the major topic of discussion for a few days.

I don't buy BB's answer one bit. The guy is a great coach and I hope he never leaves, but he screwed the dog on this one. I believe all the coaches in the nfl knew BB was doing this and I believe BB knew what other teams had been doing this in the past and compensated for it..
The pats were not being secretive about it the camera that was being used was huge and not some little handi-cam thing. BB thumbed his nose at Godell and Godell showed BB who the boss was.

Well, that just answers everything doesn't it. Thanks, I've been waiting 5 years for an erudite, technical explanation.

 

[THELAWFIRM226]

Everyone wants spygate to go away but every time I come on here there is another thread talking about spygate......:bricks:

 

[VinnyPatrollie]

It was not one memo, but multiple memos. When I get a memo/email from my boss that was also sent to all the other engineers that a some engineers are violating rules by doing something specific, no one would throw that out or discard it. the memo did not come from the front desk attendant but the boss. When the boss sends out something like that it will more than likely be a the major topic of discussion for a few days.

I don't buy BB's answer one bit. The guy is a great coach and I hope he never leaves, but he screwed the dog on this one. I believe all the coaches in the nfl knew BB was doing this and I believe BB knew what other teams had been doing this in the past and compensated for it..
The pats were not being secretive about it the camera that was being used was huge and not some little handi-cam thing. BB thumbed his nose at Godell and Godell showed BB who the boss was.

So Goodell sent out several memos saying taping opposing signals was illegal. Problem was, BB knew that no such rule existed, so he ignored it. The commissioner is not able to just declare that something is a rule by writing a memo. 23 owners need to ratify any rule changes and the only rule on the books relates to where a camera can be used. Surely, you get this. If not, here's probably the best read I've ever seen on the subject. It's worth your time to go get edumacated.

The Truth About Spygate: Punishing Success and Promoting Parity | Bleacher Report

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It was not one memo, but multiple memos. When I get a memo/email from my boss that was also sent to all the other engineers that a some engineers are violating rules by doing something specific, no one would throw that out or discard it. the memo did not come from the front desk attendant but the boss. When the boss sends out something like that it will more than likely be a the major topic of discussion for a few days.

I don't buy BB's answer one bit. The guy is a great coach and I hope he never leaves, but he screwed the dog on this one. I believe all the coaches in the nfl knew BB was doing this and I believe BB knew what other teams had been doing this in the past and compensated for it..
The pats were not being secretive about it the camera that was being used was huge and not some little handi-cam thing. BB thumbed his nose at Godell and Godell showed BB who the boss was.

It was not multiple memos. It was one memo changing/clarifying the policy. Bill's mistake was in believing the memo itself wasn't all that clear and that it didn't change anything or trump his interpretation of the existing rule or the by-laws ergo it didn't apply to what he was doing since it wasn't being viewed or used in game. That said, it was a mistake on Bill's part perhaps born of arrogance to not anticipate where the issue was trending and what the league was attempting to accomplish. Anticipating trends is his bread and butter. So he should have sought clarification as opposed to rolling the dice that he could argue semantics and get a pass on a technicality because this was never going to be adjudicated in a court of law but rather against the spiteful and jealous backdrop that is the court of public opinion.

There is no correlation between what happened here then and what has happened in NO now. The Saints were in violation of multiple longstanding rules and were not only reminded of those existing rules annually they were personally informed on multiple occasions that the league was specifically looking into allegations of existing violations and they not only simply refused to cease and desist they lied about their efforts to or their knowledge of the violations.

The Patriots owned what they did from the get go. They simply stated they did not believe what they did violated any existing rule because they did not believe a poorly worded memo trumped them. The league insisted it did, and they accepted that ruling and apologized and took their medicine like men. They did that because accountability is more than a buzz word here.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I still can't grasp that you think other teams don't have, or have had a bounty program. Bets made on the field to take someone else out, even after players have said its not uncommon. And there is no evidence of a bounty program on the saints. Thats also going to come out soon.
You feel superior in your position them come to our site and debate it. Yes, a lot more bias , but much more information than here. Posting here is easy on this subject. I just don't have the time right now to check all the sites I go to, and some are blocked by the censors at times.

I can see you feel strongly about this, but some of things you are saying are not facts, but they work just fine here.

You are persistently confusing innocuous but illegal pay for play player run programs with a bounty system incorporated into one and run by coaches and players in unison. And you're delusional. And I'm not interested in trolling other web sites to belabor either point with other delusional fans. Williams may have run similar programs in Buffalo and Washington, but he's already paying for that and those teams were not caught in the act and didn't continue the practice once he left. NO handed Goodell the means to effect culture change and they are being held accountable for it. Boo freakin' hoo. Actually couldn't have happened to a more inherently culturally unaccountable and therefore deserving outfit. Same deal as the straight cap violations penalties in Dallas and DC... All of which will ulltimately be upheld.

 

[Off The Grid]

The issue with the Pats was not that they were the only team that ever did it, plenty did. but that they were the only team that continued to do even after being warned not to do so. It was BB's arrogance that cost us the draft pick and the fine. Plus, to top it off he had the gall to do it in the opposing stadium, against a coach that knew he was doing it.

Both cases Godell gave the teams a chance to stop with no punishment. Both head coaches continued to flaunt the commissioner's directives. Result they both got publicly humiliated.

BB thumbed his nose at Godell and Godell showed BB who the boss was.

I don't know what's most disgusting:

1 ~ Your twisted interpretation of the facts ~ one that Goodell the Sewage would applaud, mind you.

2 ~ Your pathetically eager desire to roll over and accept unwarranted shame and punishment.

20 years for JayWalking is a tad excessive, in my Book.

And just because you're overcome with a fervent desire to be "publicly humiliated" doesn't mean that we were.

The Patriots acted with unrelenting Grace throughout the entire Process.

The only one who Goodell "publicly humiliated" was himself.

I hope he dies in a fire.

If somebody can get that on audio for me, I'll have my new RingTone.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The only one who Goodell "publicly humiliated" was himself.

I hope he dies in a fire.

If somebody can get that on audio for me, I'll have my new RingTone.

Acting with grace...now there is a concept rational fans should embrace.

 

[Off The Grid]

The pats were not being secretive about it the camera that was being used was huge and not some little handi-cam thing.

Does it ever occur to any of you Clowns that the reason he wasn't hiding it was because he was thought he was correctly interpreting the rules, and had nothing to hide???

These imputations of Arrogance are disgusting, to say the least.

 

[Off The Grid]

Acting with grace...now there is a concept rational fans should embrace.

So says the guy whose Screen Name celebrates Drew Bledsoe's near-DEATH.

...And whose everyday behavior echoes that level of "Grace."

You are the last person in the Galaxy who is qualified to lecture others on Grace.

And keep my words out of your posts, if you are capable of managing that simple task.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Does it ever occur to any of you Clowns that the reason he wasn't hiding it was because he was thought he was correctly interpreting the rules, and had nothing to hide???

These imputations of Arrogance are disgusting, to say the least.

That was Bill's arrogance right there. He should have sought clarification rather than assuming he'd found a technical loophole in the wording. The key is that like many of us fans he had no real respect for Goodell. Been there and done that as a corporate VP. Problem is that Bill found out that the Commissioner was the boss and paid for it, just like it donned on my marble head that the CEO, however much a doofus, is the boss.

 

[Jackson 2]

Does it ever occur to any of you Clowns that the reason he wasn't hiding it was because he was thought he was correctly interpreting the rules, and had nothing to hide???

These imputations of Arrogance are disgusting, to say the least.

Your capitalization of "Clowns" bestows a degree of respect upon those you describe which, I suspect, is largely undeserved. Your inclination toward charity is deserving of applause.

 

[VinnyPatrollie]

That was Bill's arrogance right there. He should have sought clarification rather than assuming he'd found a technical loophole in the wording. The key is that like many of us fans he had no real respect for Goodell. Been there and done that as a corporate VP. Problem is that Bill found out that the Commissioner was the boss and paid for it, just like it donned on my marble head that the CEO, however much a doofus, is the boss.

I guess you passed over my post on the previous page. It's more likely that instead of needing "clarification", BB realized that the commissioner doesn't have the power to change NFL rules via a memo, without an owners vote first. Kraft did Goodell a huge solid by accepting the punishment. Had he fought it, the Pats would have won, without a doubt, and this whole Spygate thing today would be the non-story that it should have been.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I guess you passed over my post on the previous page. It's more likely that instead of needing "clarification", BB realized that the commissioner doesn't have the power to change NFL rules via a memo, without an owners vote first. Kraft did Goodell a huge solid by accepting the punishment. Had he fought it, the Pats would have won, without a doubt, and this whole Spygate thing today would be the non-story that it should have been.

Only he does because Bill should have realized that Kraft is a consiliator and not a boat rocker and he wasn't going fight his 31 partners and risk ruining his relationship with them and the commissioner whose selection he facilitated and supported by involving arbitrators or worse in the mix because he wants a strong commissioner to do the dirty work and heavy lifting envolved in reigning in the renegades who irk him on finances as well as the players who frustrate or embarass him as an owner.

Once this thing went public there was no way to alter the outcome or the outcries on either side. Kraft knew that, and so did Bill in hindsight. That is why they simply accepted responsibility for their actions and moved on and refused to fight a losing battle.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I guess you passed over my post on the previous page. It's more likely that instead of needing "clarification", BB realized that the commissioner doesn't have the power to change NFL rules via a memo, without an owners vote first. Kraft did Goodell a huge solid by accepting the punishment. Had he fought it, the Pats would have won, without a doubt, and this whole Spygate thing today would be the non-story that it should have been.

No, I ignored it because it was wrong. Neither Bill nor Kraft ever made that contention. Instead Bill's rejoinder was that his interpretation was that it was OK to film anywhere as long as it was not used during the game in question. And Bill should know that Kraft is a conciliator not a confronter and would not go after Comissioner Closeau hammer & tongs.

 

[Gumby]

Hard to believe we still have to fight the disinformation campaign from within our own ranks (although this is a message board and we do have enough skulking pretender jester fans show up);

HELLO McFLY (aka patman52);

The LAST memo was FOURTEEN MONTHS OLD!!!
("last" - personally I am unaware of more than one; but I will defer to your strident even if likely uninformed opinion that there were multiple memos).

In the LAST PREVIOUS GAME (a PLAYOFF GAME no LESS); between these same two competitors; the Patriots opponent committed the EXACT SAME EGREGIOUS DEATH PENALTY OFFENSE. No comment from the NFL.

exactly how was BB supposed to believe this would be some kind of huge deal???????

Did you NOT see the Bruschi - Mangini ESPN discussion on it???
Mangini didn't even (per his version) instigate passing to nfl (supposedly security passed to nfl on their own [or you can maybe believe (likely) that Tannebaum was behind it] ).
Nor did he believe it would be more than a minor hand slap from the nfl.

 

[patman52]

Rules/directives whatever.

If BB did not think the Godel had the right to issue the directive, he should have responded. Instead he lawyered up. BB was like the smartest kid in class and wanted to prove he knew more than the teacher.

I don't think what the pats did affected the outcome of any game, and I think
most NFL fans agree, just because they have an excuse to tweak our nose and get under our skin so they will continue to make an issue out of it.

I am comfortable defending our victories when opposing fans want to tweak me about it and i don't mind.

As far as BB not turning the jets in, why the hell would he when he is on the opposite sideline doing the same thing.

I certainly agree that BB did not foresee it becoming a big deal, but as a manager that is his responsibility to foresee unanticipated results.

 

[stcjones]

I guess you passed over my post on the previous page. It's more likely that instead of needing "clarification", BB realized that the commissioner doesn't have the power to change NFL rules via a memo, without an owners vote first. Kraft did Goodell a huge solid by accepting the punishment. Had he fought it, the Pats would have won, without a doubt, and this whole Spygate thing today would be the non-story that it should have been.

very well said vinny