OT: Percy Harvin Wants Out

[MoLewisrocks]

I think the odds of Harvin coming in and having a great year are better than the 3 month old infant. Also, is it possible Welker's season isn't as good as last season?

Having less focus on Welker is a good thing.

I bet you were equally certain the odds of Ocho coming in and having a great year were better than the 3 month old infant, too. Also, it is possibly Harvin's season isn't as good as last season since he's coming off shoulder surgery and his migraines cause him to miss time and he'd be asked to learn a new and more complicated offense than he's ever had to perform within that has since added a legitimate threat outside the numbers?

Having less focus on Welker is only a good thing if there are equivalent or better targets to focus on consistently. The ONLY reason Brady focuses on a target is because it produces consistently and he therefore trusts it to.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think the odds of Harvin coming in and having a great year are better than the 3 month old infant.

And the odds of Welker having the great year are better than Harvin, yet you threw out that ridiculous "know" argument.

Also, is it possible Welker's season isn't as good as last season?

Sure, and it's possible that Welker's season will be better. Again, though, what's your point? Harvin's played one full season out of 3, so he's not particularly likely to be besting Welker in the games played department. He's never had a 1000 yard season, while Welker's had 4 in 5 years. He's never caught even 90 catches, while Welker's caught 120 twice and 100 four times in five years. People hyping Harvin over Welker for any reason other than age are talking out of their ass.

Having less focus on Welker is a good thing.

No, winning games is a good thing. How they get there is a matter of scheme and tactics. You're now making the mistake of making an assumption without having anything to back it up. The Welker/Brady combination had been together for 4 years. One year was lost because Brady wasn't quite Brady post-ACL. One year was lost because Welker wasn't quite Welker post-ACL. The other two resulted in Super Bowl appearances.

It's great to have other weapons, and I was probably the most ardent proponent of bringing in a middle-deep threat of anyone on this board. I've been banging the drum of needing another WR since 2009, which means that I've been saying it since before Moss moved on. So, when I talk about Welker, I'm not just doing it to talk about 'focus'. I'm talking about what works best. The offense should work better this year because the team will finally have the middle-deep compliment it needed, and the 3WR combo of Lloyd/Welker/Gaffney will be the best the team's had since 2008. It's not going to work better because the "focus" is on Welker less, but because the WR corps is more talented, regardless of "focus". Whether Welker catches 90 passes or 190 passes, the passing offense should be improved this season over last (assuming the O-line can hold up its end), even if the raw stat lines don't show it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

And the odds of Welker having the great year are better than Harvin, yet you threw out that ridiculous "know" argument

Yes, the odds are better with Welker, that doesnt mean adding Harvin, which won't happen, wouldnt be a big boost.

Sure, and it's possible that Welker's season will be better. Again, though, what's your point? Harvin's played one full season out of 3, so he's not particularly likely to be besting Welker in the games played department. He's never had a 1000 yard season, while Welker's had 4 in 5 years. He's never caught even 90 catches, while Welker's caught 120 twice and 100 four times in five years. People hyping Harvin over Welker for any reason other than age are talking out of their ass.

What were Welker's numbers before coming to the Patriots? I'm more concerned about what they could do here rather than what they have done elsewhere. Harvin is very talented and has tremendous versatility, that's where the hype is coming from.

No, winning games is a good thing. How they get there is a matter of scheme and tactics. You're now making the mistake of making an assumption without having anything to back it up. The Welker/Brady combination had been together for 4 years. One year was lost because Brady wasn't quite Brady post-ACL. One year was lost because Welker wasn't quite Welker post-ACL. The other two resulted in Super Bowl appearances.

As far as scheme and tactics go, it's a good thing if the defense has to overprepare and make more decisions. Having good field position as a result of a really good returner also factors into that scheme and tactics bit.

It's great to have other weapons, and I was probably the most ardent proponent of bringing in a middle-deep threat of anyone on this board. I've been banging the drum of needing another WR since 2009, which means that I've been saying it since before Moss moved on. So, when I talk about Welker, I'm not just doing it to talk about 'focus'. I'm talking about what works best. The offense should work better this year because the team will finally have the middle-deep compliment it needed, and the 3WR combo of Lloyd/Welker/Gaffney will be the best the team's had since 2008. It's not going to work better because the "focus" is on Welker less, but because the WR corps is more talented, regardless of "focus". Whether Welker catches 90 passes or 190 passes, the offense should be improved this season over last (assuming the O-line can hold up its end).

I think this is kind of obvious, having an additional weapon like Harvin would open up more opportunities for TFB, likely resulting in less action for Welker. Less focus on Welker, strictly for it's own sake, is not something I'm advocating. This entire discussion is within the context of an additional weapon.

 

[Deus Irae]

....This entire discussion is within the context of an additional weapon.

You're a trainwreck. The entire discussion is within the context of replacing Welker with Harvin, which you know from other people's posts. Your arguments themselves are lousy, but when you couple that with this line of nonsense, this becomes an exercise in futility, since you can't even stay focused on the discussion.

 

[Snake Eyes]

You're a trainwreck. The entire discussion is within the context of replacing Welker with Harvin, which you know from other people's posts. Your arguments themselves are lousy, but when you couple that with this line of nonsense, this becomes an exercise in futility, since you can't even stay focused on the discussion.

Ummm, I previously stated that I didnt want to trade Welker, that was even before you and I went back and forth, yet I can't stay focused in the discussion?

 

[Ivan]

First off, I never endorsed any particular trade involving Welker. Next, how do you know Harvin woudnt outproduce Welker? That's just speculation on your part, nothing more.

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Was BB stupid for hiring Brandon Lloyd? I mean, in theory he's supposed to help out the offense but he might just be another in a long line of WR free agent busts?

Harvin's abilities could provide a very nice boost to our offense capabilities, not something to be taken lightly.

The response above was to a post I made countering the idea of trading Welker for Harvin, and you would know that if yoiu had read what i said and why. feel free to back and re-read it, then you can simply acknowledge you were wrong. Trading Welker for harvin is stupid, period, and no player they can get for Welker is going to make them better.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ummm, I previously stated that I didnt want to trade Welker, that was even before you and I went back and forth, yet I can't stay focused in the discussion?

That is correct. From your own post:

First off, I never endorsed any particular trade involving Welker. Next, how do you know Harvin woudnt outproduce Welker?

So, you started off with the "but that's not what I'm saying" line, before going to the "but...."

You knew the context of the discussion, yet you proceeded with your "know" argument.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Trading Welker for harvin is stupid, period, and no player they can get for Welker is going to make them better.

Now we're finally getting somewhere.


So let's take it from there and move to the next issue: if you're not trading Welker, and you know they're not trading Lloyd/Gronk/Hernandez, where do you expect Harvin to fit in and be happy instead of sulking because he's not getting used enough when he's going to be the 5th option, at best?

 

[Ivan]

First off, I never endorsed any particular trade involving Welker. Next, how do you know Harvin woudnt outproduce Welker? That's just speculation on your part, nothing more.

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lmao-My statement is based on facts, yours on wishful thinking. Harvin has never played better than Welker, and Welker has always played better than Harvin, that's just the facts, nothing else. You can hope all you want but don't confuse it with reality.

 

[Ivan]

Now we're finally getting somewhere.


So let's take it from there and move to the next issue: if you're not trading Welker, and you know they're not trading Lloyd/Gronk/Hernandez, where do you expect Harvin to fit in and be happy instead of sulking because he's not getting used enough when he's going to be the 5th option, at best?

I don't know enough about Harvin to say he could fit in but if the cost was only a 3rd and Belichick believed he would fit in i would be fine with him over Stallworth. His ST abilities make him a better fit but i really doubt he would want to be the 4th or 5th WR, which is where he would be sitting right now. In all honesty i don't think they should be looking at offense at all at this point, and the only moves that make much sense are adding to the defense if the right player comes free. If Minny wants a 2nd for Jared Allen and he would be willing to re-do his deal then i would support that completely. That too is a pipedream, but at least one that is worth having.

 

[Snake Eyes]

lmao-My statement is based on facts, yours on wishful thinking. Harvin has never played better than Welker, and Welker has always played better than Harvin, that's just the facts, nothing else. You can hope all you want but don't confuse it with reality.

How were Welker's numbers in Miami? Do you think coming to NE had anything to do with him taking off? To dismiss that when assessing the situation is comfusing facts with reality.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That is correct. From your own post:



So, you started off with the "but that's not what I'm saying" line, before going to the "but...."

You knew the context of the discussion, yet you proceeded with your "know" argument.

Comparing Welker v. Harvin is not the same as advocating a trade. There's been PLENTY of discussion of aquiring him with a draft pick so it's NOT limited just to a trade like you suggest.

 

[Ivan]

How were Welker's numbers in Miami? Do you think coming to NE had anything to do with him taking off? To dismiss that when assessing the situation is comfusing facts with reality.

How were Ocho's numbers before coming to NE? You want to trade a given for a maybe, you're the one speculating, not me, I'm going off of proven production. Welker is on the same page as Brady and produces at the highest level, that's a fact, Harvin could play well or could falter with a complex offense, that's a question? Trading a proven exceptional player for one that may or may not pan out is stupid.

 

[Ivan]

Comparing Welker v. Harvin is not the same as advocating a trade. There's been PLENTY of discussion of aquiring him with a draft pick so it's NOT limited just to a trade like you suggest.

You chimed in supporting a trade I was rebutting, that was your choice.

 

[Deus Irae]

Comparing Welker v. Harvin is not the same as advocating a trade. There's been PLENTY of discussion of aquiring him with a draft pick so it's NOT limited just to a trade like you suggest.

Both I and Ivan have already dealt with this, so I won't revisit the actual discussion. I just wanted to note that Harvin's a very talented player who's on-the-field game would be intriguing to pair with the Patriots, but his off-the-field situations are something to think about, the timing of this is bad, and the "pipe dream" would have been more in line with team needs prior to

Welker signing Franchise tag
Lloyd signing
Gaffney signing


This is not a case like the Wallace pipe dream, where there was a clear need and at least a legitimate and current avenue for bringing in the player (RFA offer sheet) as opposed to the idea of getting a guy in trade when he's not currently available in trade.