OT- How good is Peyton Manning all time?

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

OK I have to say it -- that's incredibly unrealistic. As a rule the Patriots have had one of the top 5 overall rosters in the league every year since 2003. Yes Brady elevates that roster from "among the best" to "best in the world," and that's to his credit, but every team in the goddamned league had some flaw to point out that was equal to or worse than anything you're suggesting, in every single one of those years. That's what the cap era is all about, there is no such thing as a perfect football team.

The system has given Brady enough to compete with and make playoff runs with year after year after year after year after year, and that's literally all they're here to do. That's "their job" if you will. And they do that job head and shoulders better than anyone else in the NFL.

Hell, they nearly got Matt Cassel into the playoffs.

I get the need not to take anything from Brady, but you don't need to crap on the Patriots system to do that.

What is the Patriots system? No one seems to be able to define it. Josh McDaniels couldn't bring it with him to St. Louis or Denver. Charlie Weis couldn't bring it with him to Notre Dame. Bill O'Brien is unable to run it in Houston.

Matt Cassel ran it in 2008...and had a passer rating roughly 30 points lower than Brady. The Patriots, in that season, (a) missed the playoffs for the only time in the last 14 seasons, and (b) scored over 21 points in only 8 of 16 games.

I would like to know specifically what the system is. I don't believe these offensive schemes are incredibly arcane and impossible to explain. The NFL is a copycat league; why isn't anyone else running it?

I used to hear about the system in 2003-04 and about how the quarterback has it easy and guys like Troy Brown, David Givens, and Deion Branch were very underrated, and that Charlie Weis is the secret behind Brady's success. Then the offense changed to a 5-WR spread in 2007 under Josh McDaniels. Then a 2-TE offense under Bill O'Brien. And now a complete chameleon assimilating all of these different personnel groupings.

No coach has ever left New England and successfully coached up a quarterback to make him elite.

Belichick is a great coach. Brady is the reason why the offense is always elite.

 

[Ring 6]

What is the Patriots system? No one seems to be able to define it. Josh McDaniels couldn't bring it with him to St. Louis or Denver. Charlie Weis couldn't bring it with him to Notre Dame. Bill O'Brien is unable to run it in Houston.

Matt Cassel ran it in 2008...and had a passer rating roughly 30 points lower than Brady. The Patriots, in that season, (a) missed the playoffs for the only time in the last 14 seasons, and (b) scored over 21 points in only 8 of 16 games.

I would like to know specifically what the system is. I don't believe these offensive schemes are incredibly arcane and impossible to explain. The NFL is a copycat league; why isn't anyone else running it?

I used to hear about the system in 2003-04 and about how the quarterback has it easy and guys like Troy Brown, David Givens, and Deion Branch were very underrated, and that Charlie Weis is the secret behind Brady's success. Then the offense changed to a 5-WR spread in 2007 under Josh McDaniels. Then a 2-TE offense under Bill O'Brien. And now a complete chameleon assimilating all of these different personnel groupings.

No coach has ever left New England and successfully coached up a quarterback to make him elite.

Belichick is a great coach. Brady is the reason why the offense is always elite.

On the money.
The "system" is to put the game in tom Brady's hands.

 

[RobertWeathers]

What is the Patriots system? No one seems to be able to define it. Josh McDaniels couldn't bring it with him to St. Louis or Denver. Charlie Weis couldn't bring it with him to Notre Dame. Bill O'Brien is unable to run it in Houston.

Matt Cassel ran it in 2008...and had a passer rating roughly 30 points lower than Brady. The Patriots, in that season, (a) missed the playoffs for the only time in the last 14 seasons, and (b) scored over 21 points in only 8 of 16 games.

I would like to know specifically what the system is. I don't believe these offensive schemes are incredibly arcane and impossible to explain. The NFL is a copycat league; why isn't anyone else running it?

I used to hear about the system in 2003-04 and about how the quarterback has it easy and guys like Troy Brown, David Givens, and Deion Branch were very underrated, and that Charlie Weis is the secret behind Brady's success. Then the offense changed to a 5-WR spread in 2007 under Josh McDaniels. Then a 2-TE offense under Bill O'Brien. And now a complete chameleon assimilating all of these different personnel groupings.

No coach has ever left New England and successfully coached up a quarterback to make him elite.

Belichick is a great coach. Brady is the reason why the offense is always elite.

I really don't understand why people don't give Tom the goddamn credit he deserves.

Yes- the Pats offensive system is a good one. Its sound and with the right players executing it can be very successful.

 

[robbomango]

Add 2013 to that list.

2013 was crazy, lost the idiot Ahern, lost Welker, Gronk only played 6 games, Amendola was injured, Vereen was injured(wearing a cast 2nd half of season), relying on mostly Jules in his 1st full season and a couple of rookies.

Somehow managed 12 wins, got to the AFCCG and the offense was ranked 3rd in scoring. They miss the PO's by a wide margin without TB that year imo.

 

[Deus Irae]

What is the Patriots system?

(knowing where you're going with this)

The lesser answer is that the Patriots" system" is passing routes that have to be read identically by both the receiver and the QB, and that have to be set up by the QB's proper read of defensive coverage (particularly the "LB" level). It relies heavily on pre-snap reads that combine with immediate confirmation of that read, post-snap, and it can only work if the QB works it out, because the precision required of the receivers running routes will work against it if the QB blows the reads. The "system" has led to 11 trips to the conference championship game, 7 trips to the Super Bowl, and 5 Super Bowl victories.

I've said it before. The Patriots "system" is Tom Brady.

If it was really just a system, every single team in the NFL would be running it. If it really was just a system that was generating all that success, every head coach in the NFL would be insisting that his team find QBs that could run it, and would insist that every O.C. convert to it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

On the money.
The "system" is to put the game in tom Brady's hands.

Belichick has said the quarterback's job is to win games. That goes to show how important Brady is.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

If we are talking all time, then I have to place Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham ahead of Manning. I would also have to consider Bart Starr, Sid Luckman, Norm Van Brocklin and Roger Staubach as well.


If we are going to take the article that started this conversation, and their 1978 as a starting point, then we can leave the old timers out and evade comparing very different eras.


For me:

1. Tom Brady
2. Joe Montana
3. John Elway
4. Dan Marino
5. Peyton Manning
6. Drew Brees
7. Dan Fouts
8. Aaron Rodgers
9. Warren Moon
10. Brett Favre

Point taken, but fools rush in where angels fear to stomp, so here goes:

Very tough to compare across eras, but I agree Graham, Unitas and Starr belong on any top ten list...certainly both above Fouts and Moon and probably above Manning.

Using your selections and without a lot of thought (so I'm open to flipping a couple of names around), I'd make that list Brady, Montana, Unitas, Marino, Graham, Elway, Manning, Starr, Rodgers, Brees/Favre (pick-em).

 

[stinkypete]

I know this board is somewhat biased, but I put Manning firmly at #2, and would not rank him any lower than #3.

 

[doesntmatter1]

Peyton is amazing and clearly #2 behind Brady during this era. I've seen him carve up elite defenses in ways Brady hasn't with ridiculous timing throws. For example, I have seen Brady struggle against the Ravens defense but I have seen Manning on multiple occasions carve them up. It's debatable if anyone including Brady read defenses better than Manning, but he was plagued by greed/impatience that lead to a great deal of interceptions.

Sadly, I have always thought he was missing the grit Brady has and was a greedy **** who threw the ball in contested areas and didn't care if his receiver was blown up or not. He is also is the original jump ball Joe who played a major part in ruining how physical secondaries were allowed to play.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Peyton is amazing and clearly #2 behind Brady during this era. I've seen him carve up elite defenses in ways Brady hasn't with ridiculous timing throws. For example, I have seen Brady struggle against the Ravens defense but I have seen Manning on multiple occasions carve them up. It's debatable if anyone including Brady read defenses better than Manning, but he was plagued by greed/impatience that lead to a great deal of interceptions.

Sadly, I have always thought he was missing the grit Brady has and was a greedy **** who threw the ball in contested areas and didn't care if his receiver was blown up or not. He is also is the original jump ball Joe who played a major part in ruining how physical secondaries were allowed to play.

Brady also had a lot of success against the Ravens in the regular season. In the playoffs, Manning also struggled, which is understandable (for both of them) considering the Ravens were the best defense of that era. Manning played the Ravens in 2006 (zero TDs) and 2012 (multiple INTs, including OT, couldn't win despite 2 ST/D touchdowns.)

 

[Ring 6]

(knowing where you're going with this)

The lesser answer is that the Patriots" system" is passing routes that have to be read identically by both the receiver and the QB, and that have to be set up by the QB's proper read of defensive coverage (particularly the "LB" level). It relies heavily on pre-snap reads that combine with immediate confirmation of that read, post-snap, and it can only work if the QB works it out, because the precision required of the receivers running routes will work against it if the QB blows the reads. The "system" has led to 11 trips to the conference championship game, 7 trips to the Super Bowl, and 5 Super Bowl victories.

I've said it before. The Patriots "system" is Tom Brady.

If it was really just a system, every single team in the NFL would be running it. If it really was just a system that was generating all that success, every head coach in the NFL would be insisting that his team find QBs that could run it, and would insist that every O.C. convert to it.

You mean like what happened with the WCO?

 

[Ring 6]

Peyton is amazing and clearly #2 behind Brady during this era. I've seen him carve up elite defenses in ways Brady hasn't with ridiculous timing throws. For example, I have seen Brady struggle against the Ravens defense but I have seen Manning on multiple occasions carve them up. It's debatable if anyone including Brady read defenses better than Manning, but he was plagued by greed/impatience that lead to a great deal of interceptions.

Sadly, I have always thought he was missing the grit Brady has and was a greedy **** who threw the ball in contested areas and didn't care if his receiver was blown up or not. He is also is the original jump ball Joe who played a major part in ruining how physical secondaries were allowed to play.

The raven thing isn't really what you think.
Manning was 11-3 and averaged about 27 ppg Brady was 8-3 and averaged about 26 ppg.
Mannings ppg was also driven way up by a few Denver games when bmore wasn't really what they were anymore.

That aside picking out one defense that is better equipped to defend one style of offense that another style of offense isn't really saying anything.

Should we look at their records vs Pittsburgh?

 

[Joker]

If the law had done what they were supposed to do in Tennessee, we wouldn't even be talking about the disgusting crud that is Peyton Manning today. He would have gotten the 10 years he deserved for sexual assault and been relegated to being Eli's belt loop biatch the rest of his HGH drug addled life.

 

[doesntmatter1]

The raven thing isn't really what you think.
Manning was 11-3 and averaged about 27 ppg Brady was 8-3 and averaged about 26 ppg.
Mannings ppg was also driven way up by a few Denver games when bmore wasn't really what they were anymore.

That aside picking out one defense that is better equipped to defend one style of offense that another style of offense isn't really saying anything.

Should we look at their records vs Pittsburgh?

You are 100% correct. I can't even point out specific games(colt days though) but I remember coverage breakdowns by the Ravens that Manning seemed to easily take advantage of at the line of scrimmage. Easy is the keyword. You are completely right about different styles etc but the ravens were always looked at as such a cerebral defense and to see Manning do that was impressive.

Whenever Brady played the ravens, even when we put up a lot of points, it felt like a grind unlike Steeler games lol.

 

[captain insano]

this thread sucks.

 

[Joker]

Manning sucks.

 

[Uptown]

 

[Deus Irae]

In the end, it still comes down to a top 8 (no particular order),

Brady
Montana
Starr
Unitas
Graham
Young
Staubach
Baugh

and then the rest.

The Elway/Favre/Manning/Bradshaw/etc... arguing starts at #9.

 

[deroc5050]

What is the Patriots system? No one seems to be able to define it. Josh McDaniels couldn't bring it with him to St. Louis or Denver. Charlie Weis couldn't bring it with him to Notre Dame. Bill O'Brien is unable to run it in Houston.

Matt Cassel ran it in 2008...and had a passer rating roughly 30 points lower than Brady. The Patriots, in that season, (a) missed the playoffs for the only time in the last 14 seasons, and (b) scored over 21 points in only 8 of 16 games.

I would like to know specifically what the system is. I don't believe these offensive schemes are incredibly arcane and impossible to explain. The NFL is a copycat league; why isn't anyone else running it?

I used to hear about the system in 2003-04 and about how the quarterback has it easy and guys like Troy Brown, David Givens, and Deion Branch were very underrated, and that Charlie Weis is the secret behind Brady's success. Then the offense changed to a 5-WR spread in 2007 under Josh McDaniels. Then a 2-TE offense under Bill O'Brien. And now a complete chameleon assimilating all of these different personnel groupings.

No coach has ever left New England and successfully coached up a quarterback to make him elite.

Belichick is a great coach. Brady is the reason why the offense is always elite.

I have seen a few ex coaches and players say... Its all Brady. Brady is what makes the system work.

According to Brady its the Coaches that put him in the best position to win.

Short answer its Brady and Bill. Not to overstate any thing to obvious.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

What is the Patriots system? No one seems to be able to define it. Josh McDaniels couldn't bring it with him to St. Louis or Denver. Charlie Weis couldn't bring it with him to Notre Dame. Bill O'Brien is unable to run it in Houston.

Matt Cassel ran it in 2008...and had a passer rating roughly 30 points lower than Brady. The Patriots, in that season, (a) missed the playoffs for the only time in the last 14 seasons, and (b) scored over 21 points in only 8 of 16 games.

I would like to know specifically what the system is. I don't believe these offensive schemes are incredibly arcane and impossible to explain. The NFL is a copycat league; why isn't anyone else running it?

I used to hear about the system in 2003-04 and about how the quarterback has it easy and guys like Troy Brown, David Givens, and Deion Branch were very underrated, and that Charlie Weis is the secret behind Brady's success. Then the offense changed to a 5-WR spread in 2007 under Josh McDaniels. Then a 2-TE offense under Bill O'Brien. And now a complete chameleon assimilating all of these different personnel groupings.

No coach has ever left New England and successfully coached up a quarterback to make him elite.

Belichick is a great coach. Brady is the reason why the offense is always elite.

Not only that, belichick could not win with bledsoe as his QB or Vinny Testeverde in Cleveland under his system. The pats went from 5-11 in 2000 to 11-5 in 2001 (and super bowl champs) once Brady took over. Every great coach needs a great QB to win in this league, and vice versa. Name me one QB who has multiple super bowl rings with a bad coach - you can't.