OT: Does anyone realize what Philip Rivers is doing?

[Kontradiction]

I'm not impressed any more than I'm impressed when Eli manages to snag a ring or Cutler (or Bulger or McNabb or the aging Favre or Schaub or Vince Young) are being touted as elite based on empty yardage and passing stats while repeatedly failing to accomplish anything meaningful from a team perspective... I guess that is why fantasy football holds zero fascination for me. It's not remotely related to the NFL game that does fascinate me on or off the field. Where the true value player is the one who finds ways to facilitate winning as a team.

How is anything that happened from a team perspective over in San Diego the fault of Rivers? Personally, I'd be more inclined to lay that blame at the feet of A.J. Smith. After all, there's only so much that leadership can accomplish when you have holes and question marks on the O-Line to start the season, multiple holes at WR, a RB that hasn't worked out (be it lack of production or injury) so far, and a defense that has holes and question marks at OLB, ILB, and at safety. I haven't seen you lay the blame entirely at the feet of Tom Brady for the 2009 team, for example. Why are you so willing to do it to Rivers for the current outlook of the 2010 Chargers when it's obvious that he's doing the best with what he's been given to work with?

By the way, you don't have to be a fantasy football player to appreciate both individual and team accomplishments. You just have to be a fan of the game in general.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

How is anything that happened from a team perspective over in San Diego the fault of Rivers? Personally, I'd be more inclined to lay that blame at the feet of A.J. Smith. After all, there's only so much that leadership can accomplish when you have holes and question marks on the O-Line to start the season, multiple holes at WR, a RB that hasn't worked out (be it lack of production or injury) so far, and a defense that has holes and question marks at OLB, ILB, and at safety. I haven't seen you lay the blame entirely at the feet of Tom Brady for the 2009 team, for example. Why are you so willing to do it to Rivers for the current outlook of the 2010 Chargers when it's obvious that he's doing the best with what he's been given to work with?

By the way, you don't have to be a fantasy football player to appreciate both individual and team accomplishments. You just have to be a fan of the game in general.

They are two entirely different and essentially unrelated games beyond the fact that both involve a football.

Rivers has been around for a while. 2010 isn't his first rodeo. SD has been a talent laden pundit SB favorite for half a decade to no avail. Brady has a track record of doing more with less. Rivers has a track record of coming up short with more. Coaches can't coach nearly as effectively if they don't have a selfless core leadership group in place policing the team and holding each other accountable. Brady struggled to lead the group he had last season in part because he was a one man core. No one else was willing to be remotely accountable. Insecurity and ego struggle with accountability. In SD I have yet to see anyone be accountable. Did AJ selectively create that mess? Yup, but Rivers has historically been part of it. From the slow starts to the epic collapses when it matters most.

 

[Synovia]

They are two entirely different and essentially unrelated games beyond the fact that both involve a football.

Rivers has been around for a while. 2010 isn't his first rodeo. SD has been a talent laden pundit SB favorite for half a decade to no avail. Brady has a track record of doing more with less. Rivers has a track record of coming up short with more. Coaches can't coach nearly as effectively if they don't have a selfless core leadership group in place policing the team and holding each other accountable. Brady struggled to lead the group he had last season in part because he was a one man core. No one else was willing to be remotely accountable. Insecurity and ego struggle with accountability. In SD I have yet to see anyone be accountable. Did AJ selectively create that mess? Yup, but Rivers has historically been part of it. From the slow starts to the epic collapses when it matters most.

So, its River's fault that SD's special teams are historically bad, and their defense sucks?

So, why the hell does everyone rag on Norv? I mean, if its River's doing it?

 

[emoney_33]

I'm not impressed any more than I'm impressed when Eli manages to snag a ring or Cutler (or Bulger or McNabb or the aging Favre or Schaub or Vince Young) are being touted as elite based on empty yardage and passing stats while repeatedly failing to accomplish anything meaningful from a team perspective... I guess that is why fantasy football holds zero fascination for me. It's not remotely related to the NFL game that does fascinate me on or off the field. Where the true value player is the one who finds ways to facilitate winning as a team.

How can you be fascinated with the game of football, specifically in the NFL, yet fail to understand that it is a TEAM game. It is impossible for an individual player to control wins/losses. Put Brady on a crappy team, and they aren't SB champions and you are saying the same baloney about him.

 

[folamzz]

I do think Rivers is a product of the offensive scheme. Norv Turner may not be a good head coach, but he's a sound offensive mind. The chargers/houston game was on here in Dallas, those mediocre receivers were running wide open down the field. On first charger TD, the cornerback bit badly on a double move, nobody was within 20 yards of the receiver for a easy TD.

I don't know what kind of scheme we run or receiver routes, but you never see our receivers running free down the field. I know belichick has his pride, but we need to start stealing some of the coaching talents from New Orleans or San diego

 

[MoLewisrocks]

So, its River's fault that SD's special teams are historically bad, and their defense sucks?

So, why the hell does everyone rag on Norv? I mean, if its River's doing it?

The problems preceeded Norv.

I never said it was his fault. I simply believe if you are not part of the solution you are probably part of the problem. 2010 is just most recently visible the tip of iceberg in SD. This has been a team (or rather collection) of overhyped unaccountable whiny excuse making stat generating underachievers for a long time now. Phillip and LT seemed to be locked in some sort of battle for prominence during most of the last 4-5 seasons. Philip won, it's his team now and all I see is more of the same.

Were guys like Shockey and Tiki a problem in NY and did the Giants gain by subtracting short term? Yup. But Shockey has a ring now too playing with a QB who found a way to manage and co-exist with him. Eli will never be that kind of QB. Neither I believe will Rivers. One has too little ego and personality and the other has both in spades. QB's who are elite beyond statistically have the capacity to balance ego with humility and a selfless appreciation for doing what is in the best interest of the team. Some players gravitate towards playing with jackholes. And it can work. I'll take the QB who instills in his teamates an abiding desire to run through walls for him not because they believe he's their savior but because by example he makes them want to do whatever it takes to win as a team, cost or credit be damned.

 

[emoney_33]

The problems preceeded Norv.

I never said it was his fault. I simply believe if you are not part of the solution you are probably part of the problem.

By that logic, Brady was the problem in 02, 05, 06, 07 and 09.

 

[Synovia]

The problems preceeded Norv.

So, Phillip Rivers, as a Rookie, and 2nd year player, was the problem?

I never said it was his fault. I simply believe if you are not part of the solution you are probably part of the problem.

And a quarterback who is breaking pretty much every passing record there is, is clearly a part of the problem, right?

2010 is just most recently visible the tip of iceberg in SD. This has been a team (or rather collection) of overhyped unaccountable whiny excuse making stat generating underachievers for a long time now. Phillip and LT seemed to be locked in some sort of battle for prominence during most of the last 4-5 seasons. Philip won, it's his team now and all I see is more of the same.

So, your logic is, because LT left, and the team didn't get any better, Rivers is a problem? Moss left, and the offense hasn't got any better, so clearly Brady is a problem, right? Same logic.

Were guys like Shockey and Tiki a problem in NY and did the Giants gain by subtracting short term? Yup. But Shockey has a ring now too playing with a QB who found a way to manage and co-exist with him. Eli will never be that kind of QB. Neither I believe will Rivers. One has too little ego and personality and the other has both in spades. QB's who are elite beyond statistically have the capacity to balance ego with humility and a selfless appreciation for doing what is in the best interest of the team. Some players gravitate towards playing with jackholes. And it can work. I'll take the QB who instills in his teamates an abiding desire to run through walls for him not because they believe he's their savior but because by example he makes them want to do whatever it takes to win as a team, cost or credit be damned.

And you think that Rivers' and Eli's egos are more important than the fact that one won a superbowl playing with one of the best defenses in the last 10 years, and the other one has played most of his career with terrible defenses and no special teams?

The only thing I can conclude here is you have absolutely no idea that there's anything on the football field besides what NBC shows you in their zoom-in-QB-Hero shots.

So, why the hell has Tom Brady been unable to get his defense to perform the last 5 years? Is he a poor leader now?

 

[Synovia]

By that logic, Brady was the problem in 02, 05, 06, 07 and 09.

Don't forget '08. He clearly wasn't a part of the solution that year.

 

[vvusteve]

I remember his first college game thursday night football when he was a freshman.I said that night he looked like dan marino, he looked great.in 04 I was telling everyone here in phoenix az that the cards need rivers but they drafted fitzgerald with the third pick.Fitz is great but I guess now they wish they had rivers.I hope he wins the mvp and the pats win the superbowl.I could live with that.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

How can you be fascinated with the game of football, specifically in the NFL, yet fail to understand that it is a TEAM game. It is impossible for an individual player to control wins/losses. Put Brady on a crappy team, and they aren't SB champions and you are saying the same baloney about him.

Actually I do get that while the fantasy and talent types fail to. I also therefore get that it takes more than prolific passing skills to make an elite QB the leader of a winning team. Even the most prolific passer of these times had to take a step back at the request of his touchy feely HC in order to allow a team that could win when it mattered most (including even when he was struggling as he historically did in post season play) to emerge around him...

Who knows, maybe if Marino had been a little less prolific a championship winning team might have emerged around him...

 

[Synovia]

Actually I do get that while the fantasy and talent types fail to. I also therefore get that it takes more than prolific passing skills to make an elite QB the leader of a winning team. Even the most prolific passer of these times had to take a step back at the request of his touchy feely HC in order to allow a team that could win when it mattered most (including even when he was struggling as he historically did in post season play) to emerge around him...

Who knows, maybe if Marino had been a little less prolific a championship winning team might have emerged around him...

Yeah, because having your offense move the ball is BAD for your chances to win!

 

[Sivy]

I think Rivers is a punk and wouldnt mind punching him in the race.

Cutler is also on that list.

 

[emoney_33]

Actually I do get that while the fantasy and talent types fail to. I also therefore get that it takes more than prolific passing skills to make an elite QB the leader of a winning team. Even the most prolific passer of these times had to take a step back at the request of his touchy feely HC in order to allow a team that could win when it mattered most (including even when he was struggling as he historically did in post season play) to emerge around him...

Who knows, maybe if Marino had been a little less prolific a championship winning team might have emerged around him...

Honestly, I think you've emersed yourself into a fantasy fairy tale world full of exaggerated cliches. Brady of 06-07 was a better QB than Brady of 03-04.

 

[Synovia]

I think Rivers is a punk and wouldnt mind punching him in the race.

Cutler is also on that list.

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that hes really good.

 

[lightningbolt]

Actually I do get that while the fantasy and talent types fail to. I also therefore get that it takes more than prolific passing skills to make an elite QB the leader of a winning team. Even the most prolific passer of these times had to take a step back at the request of his touchy feely HC in order to allow a team that could win when it mattered most (including even when he was struggling as he historically did in post season play) to emerge around him...

Who knows, maybe if Marino had been a little less prolific a championship winning team might have emerged around him...

So, having a QB that does well is a bad thing? You're saying that in order to help the Chargers win Rivers should throw more interceptions and complete less passes? Rivers is playing outstanding considering his circumstances:

1) The worst special teams in NFL history. (They're on track to be just that this year)

2) No help from the running game as Ryan Matthews is either injured on the sideline or fumbling when he's allowed to play.

3) Norv Turner as the head coach. He's a great offensive mind but any team that he coaches is totally undisciplined.


If Bill Bellichick was the head coach of the Chargers under Rivers we'd have 3 super bowls by now. All the Chargers need is a coach that can discipline the entire team to make it work, not just focus on offensive schemes like Norv has been doing.

 

[lightningbolt]

I think Rivers is a punk and wouldnt mind punching him in the race.

Cutler is also on that list.

You think Rivers is a punk because he talks trash to opposing players on the field? This is football; it's not supposed to be all flowers and buttercups. If you want people behaving nicely towards one another go watch golf. This is a man's sport; players shouldn't be getting their feelings hurt by hearing some trash talking. If a defensive player talks trash and tries to get into the head of the opposing team people praise them and say that they're a force to be reckoned with. If a QB does it, people criticize him. Why the hypocrisy? Are QBs not part of the team? Why are they held to a different standard?

 

[lightningbolt]

They are two entirely different and essentially unrelated games beyond the fact that both involve a football.

Rivers has been around for a while. 2010 isn't his first rodeo. SD has been a talent laden pundit SB favorite for half a decade to no avail. Brady has a track record of doing more with less. Rivers has a track record of coming up short with more. Coaches can't coach nearly as effectively if they don't have a selfless core leadership group in place policing the team and holding each other accountable. Brady struggled to lead the group he had last season in part because he was a one man core. No one else was willing to be remotely accountable. Insecurity and ego struggle with accountability. In SD I have yet to see anyone be accountable. Did AJ selectively create that mess? Yup, but Rivers has historically been part of it. From the slow starts to the epic collapses when it matters most.

You're blaming Rivers for why the Chargers are doing poorly as a whole? It's not his job to police the entire team; that's the head coach's job. It's Rivers job to motivate his offense and perform well while out there and he's doing that incredibly well right now considering that he's putting up record breaking stats with no name receivers and no help from the running game.

The Chargers have been doing poorly and struggling because of one reason and one reason only: NORV TURNER!!!!

You can't blame the QB for having a horrible coach. Tom Brady would never have won a ring if Norv Turner had been his coach his entire career.

 

[Kontradiction]

They are two entirely different and essentially unrelated games beyond the fact that both involve a football.

Rivers has been around for a while. 2010 isn't his first rodeo. SD has been a talent laden pundit SB favorite for half a decade to no avail. Brady has a track record of doing more with less. Rivers has a track record of coming up short with more. Coaches can't coach nearly as effectively if they don't have a selfless core leadership group in place policing the team and holding each other accountable. Brady struggled to lead the group he had last season in part because he was a one man core. No one else was willing to be remotely accountable. Insecurity and ego struggle with accountability. In SD I have yet to see anyone be accountable. Did AJ selectively create that mess? Yup, but Rivers has historically been part of it. From the slow starts to the epic collapses when it matters most.

Your problem here starts with the fact that you're trying to compare Rivers, one of the best quarterback in the league today, to Brady, one of the best quarterbacks of all time. Starting there, you're already going to have a personal bias against Rivers. That's been apparent so far. On top of that, the thread was not about comparing the two quarterbacks. It was about what Philip Rivers has been doing this season. Essentially, he's having an MVP season with exactly... what... at WR? On top of that, his #1 weapon at TE is out for some time. Furthermore, San Diego has been able to get just a little bit better than **** from their running game. And still, Rivers is on pace to shatter the single-season yardage mark and possibly throw 40 TD's on the season.

Tell me, off the top of your head can you name me a single one of their starting WR's besides Patrick Crayton? Moreover, when you look at Rivers, he's been doing it without any consistency at RB since 2006. You want leadership and accountability? How about going into a 17-0 team's house in the Championship game with a torn ACL and throwing for 211 yards, moving the ball and giving your team every chance necessary to win? Is he a hot head? Sure. But that doesn't mean that he's not a leader. He's just not the type of leader that we're accustomed to here in New England.

 

[lightningbolt]

Your problem here starts with the fact that you're trying to compare Rivers, one of the best quarterback in the league today, to Brady, one of the best quarterbacks of all time. Starting there, you're already going to have a personal bias against Rivers. That's been apparent so far. On top of that, the thread was not about comparing the two quarterbacks. It was about what Philip Rivers has been doing this season. Essentially, he's having an MVP season with exactly... what... at WR? On top of that, his #1 weapon at TE is out for some time. Furthermore, San Diego has been able to get just a little bit better than **** from their running game. And still, Rivers is on pace to shatter the single-season yardage mark and possibly throw 40 TD's on the season.

Tell me, off the top of your head can you name me a single one of their starting WR's besides Patrick Crayton? Moreover, when you look at Rivers, he's been doing it without any consistency at RB since 2006. You want leadership and accountability? How about going into a 17-0 team's house in the Championship game with a torn ACL and throwing for 211 yards, moving the ball and giving your team every chance necessary to win? Is he a hot head? Sure. But that doesn't mean that he's not a leader. He's just not the type of leader that we're accustomed to here in New England.

Exactly! MoLewisrocks' problem is that he's looking at Rivers and every other QB through Brady colored lenses. Brady is a quiet guy and Rivers is a fiery guy so that must mean that Rivers is an inferior QB. Just because he's not used to any other QB than Brady doesn't mean that in order to be a great QB Rivers has to resemble Brady. He's his own man; his personality doesn't affect his level of play on the field and his teammates respect him and view him as a great leader. For example watch this short clip in which Shaun Phillips talks about how the entire Charger team feels about Rivers:

YouTube - Philip Rivers character


By MoLewisrocks' logic, Eli Manning must be the greatest QB in the NFL right now because he's silent as a mouse and has no personality to speak of. I doubt anyone here would take Eli Manning over Philip Rivers to be the QB of their team.