Offensive Playcalling was Average to Atrocious

[DaBruinz]

db I also attributed blame to Brady.
HOWEVER, Brady has come through in the past before in big playoff moments.

The common denominator for these devastating losses since our last SB win, is McDaniels. First it was the 'we don't have enough talent on offense' excuse for McD, then it was 'the Giants D was God and no team could have beaten them' excuse.

Brady had been clutch pre-McDaniels, and hasn't been as clutch with McD calling the plays.

While Brady has the option of audibling, who are you to say that Brady isn't just a good soldier who more often than not, goes with the play called unless he sees an obvious blitz?

Your whole theory is garbage to begin with because one of the losses had NOTHING to do with the offense. The loss to Denver. Trying to blame McDaniels for that is just LAUGHABLE.

Also, Brady isn't just a "good soldier," who just runs the plays the coaches call. He DOES think for himself on the field. He has the option to audible on any play based on WHAT HE SEES from the defense. Its pure ignorance on your part to assume that Brady calls plays he knows are destined to fail based on the defense he sees. And it would be pure ARROGANCE on Brady's part to think that he can beat ANY defense regardless of what offensive play he called.

Finally, Brady, Belichick, McDaniels, Scarnecchia and all the other offensive coaches are involved in the gameplanning and the game adjustments. If you honestly believe that Belichick wouldn't over-rule his coordinators, then explain to me why he took over the defensive play-calling from Mangini is 2005?

And, no, you don't put blame on Brady. In fact, quite the opposite. You make excuses for Brady and blame all the issues on McDaniels. You act as if Brady is infallible. He's not. Brady is HUMAN just like anyone else.

And, I find it hilarious that you say that Brady is Clutch, but give no credit to Weis, yet when it comes to Brady not executing, you put all the blame on McDaniels.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Was the reason, perhaps, that the defenses began employing safety help over the top on every play, thus preventing the long ball? You know, playing defense the way New England does against the Colts?



Faulk had over 60 catches, Stallworth more than 40 and Gaffney more than 30.

I think you're a bit obsessed with numbers of catches everyone had.

Playcalling means far more than "who catches passes"

It's how they are used. And Stallworth rally wasn't used as a deep threat at only 4 catches of passes thrown more than 20 yards.

Tell me - the fact is, that since Moss was the only player used as a deep threat, when teams all but took Moss out of the game, the took the entire threat of the deep ball out of the game.

What's even more baffling is that there was no shortage of short pass options as you've pointed out over and over

Faulk, Maroney, Gaffney, Stallworth, Welker - all were short pass options.

So why not use Stallworth as a deep threat? What's the strategic advantage of NOT having a credible deep game? Because that apparently was the choice McDaniels made.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you're a bit obsessed with numbers of catches everyone had.

Playcalling means far more than "who catches passes"

It's how they are used. And Stallworth rally wasn't used as a deep threat at only 4 catches of passes thrown more than 20 yards.

Tell me - the fact is, that since Moss was the only player used as a deep threat, when teams all but took Moss out of the game, the took the entire threat of the deep ball out of the game.

What's even more baffling is that there was no shortage of short pass options as you've pointed out over and over

Faulk, Maroney, Gaffney, Stallworth, Welker - all were short pass options.

So why not use Stallworth as a deep threat? What's the strategic advantage of NOT having a credible deep game? Because that apparently was the choice McDaniels made.

How many times do we have to go over this? You were wrong in your post. The numbers back that up. Your disparagement of the numbers doesn't make them go away. They prove your point invalid. Leave it at that and move on.


Here are some comparisons from other playoff teams:

Gaffney had 5 catches which fit your standard, Welker had 2 and Watson had 2 to go along with the 4 by Stallworth and Moss' 11. Brady was 13-35 from 21-30 yards, 6-9 from 31-40 yards and 7-16 from 41+ yards. Total completions from those distances: 26-60 (Moss made up fewer than half of the 'deep' completions)

For the Colts, Harrison had 3, Gonzalez had 4, Clark had 3 to go along with Wayne's 14. Manning didn't toss a single pass of 41+ yards all season, and was 16-40 from 21-30 and 9-20 from 31-40. Total numbers: 24-60

In Dallas, Patrick Crayton had 4 catches under your 20+ in the air rubrick as his team's #2. Was the Dallas offense somehow crushed by this? Romo threw 18-48 from 21-30 and 7-14 from 31-40, never putting one 41+ in the air all season. Total numbers: 25-62

For the Giants, Toomer caught 2, Boss caught 1. I won't bother pointing out Eli's numbers, except to point out that his totals were 11-57

And, for one more, Green Bay... Favre was 9-26 from 21-30, 8-22 from 31-40 and 2-4 from 41+. Driver caught 4 of them, Jennings had 7, Lee had 2... Total numbers: 19-52

So, let's take a look. Brady and Manning went downfield the same number of times, with Brady throwing the longest passes and completing a slightly higher percentage. Moss caught fewer of these 20+ passes than Reggie Wayne, But the Patriots 'others' caught more than the Colts 'others'.

 

[maverick4]

And, I find it hilarious that you say that Brady is Clutch, but give no credit to Weis, yet when it comes to Brady not executing, you put all the blame on McDaniels.

Actually I do give credit to Weiss as well, and the rest of the football world does too, which is why he got the ND job. And it only adds to my argument, that since McDaniels has been at the helm, he hasn't gotten it done, with some huge examples of blatantly horrible play calls, not just on the last drive of the superbowl.

Are you incapable of having a civilized debate? Why do you have to resort to such immature and childish tactics of talking down to people in your posts, not just myself but *anytime* you end up debating anyone on here?

 

[JoeSixPat]

How many times do we have to go over this? You were wrong in your post. The numbers back that up. Your disparagement of the numbers doesn't make them go away. They prove your point invalid. Leave it at that and move on.


Here are some comparisons from other playoff teams:

Gaffney had 5 catches which fit your standard, Welker had 2 and Watson had 2 to go along with the 4 by Stallworth and Moss' 11. Brady was 13-35 from 21-30 yards, 6-9 from 31-40 yards and 7-16 from 41+ yards. Total completions from those distances: 26-60 (Moss made up fewer than half of the 'deep' completions)

For the Colts, Harrison had 3, Gonzalez had 4, Clark had 3 to go along with Wayne's 14. Manning didn't toss a single pass of 41+ yards all season, and was 16-40 from 21-30 and 9-20 from 31-40. Total numbers: 24-60

In Dallas, Patrick Crayton had 4 catches under your 20+ in the air rubrick as his team's #2. Was the Dallas offense somehow crushed by this? Romo threw 18-48 from 21-30 and 7-14 from 31-40, never putting one 41+ in the air all season. Total numbers: 25-62

For the Giants, Toomer caught 2, Boss caught 1. I won't bother pointing out Eli's numbers, except to point out that his totals were 11-57

And, for one more, Green Bay... Favre was 9-26 from 21-30, 8-22 from 31-40 and 2-4 from 41+. Driver caught 4 of them, Jennings had 7, Lee had 2... Total numbers: 19-52

So, let's take a look. Brady and Manning went downfield the same number of times, with Brady throwing the longest passes and completing a slightly higher percentage. Moss caught fewer of these 20+ passes than Reggie Wayne, But the Patriots 'others' caught more than the Colts 'others'.

Why are you comparing apples to oranges... and are we supposed to feel BETTER that Jabbar Gaffney - who averages about 12 ypc - was as effective as a deep WR as Stallworth was?

If anything your stats prove me correct.

Go back to the heart of the question instead of throwing out arbitrary numbers.

The Patriots dominated teams early in the season thanks largely to the dominant deep game of Randy Moss.

When teams adjusted and contained Moss' effectiveness in the deep game, did our offensive strategy adjust and utilize the talent of Stallworth - who had AVERAGED nearly 20 yards a catch the year before with 38 catches in an injury plagued season?

No they did not. He caught 4 passes thrown more than 20 yards to him during the regular season. And neither Gaffney's presence nor Faulk's nor Maroney's were "stretching the field" any more than Stallworth's.

Asserting that Faulk and Maroney and Gaffney had comparable deep stats to Stallworth doesn't help your case - it undermines it, especially when we had the need for an alternative deep threat to Moss, and the underutilized talent right there on our team in Stallworth.

The two possibilities are that McDaniels, or whoever you want to blame, made a strategic mistake by consistently failing to use Stallworth in the way he should have been utilized

OR

That Stallworth was potentially limited by an undisclosed injury (hamstring) and really COULDN'T be used as a deep threat.

At the beginning of the season it seems to me just having Stallworth on the field - knowing how productive he was at 19 ypc last year - was enough to counter the tendency to attempt to shut down Moss. But as the season wore on, and McDaniels consistently failed to call Stallworth's number for deep routes, DC's determined he was not a threat, and continued to shut down Moss and collapse the defense, without any real fear of suffering the consequences of being burned deep.

That's something that the Offensive Coordinator would certainly have some input in - now if you want to make similar criticisms of OTHER TEAMS offensive coordinators, be my guest, but I think this thread is focusing on what the Patriots did with two premier deep threat WRs on the team - not what other teams did, whether they had two, one, or none.

 

[Deus Irae]

Why are you comparing apples to oranges... and are we supposed to feel BETTER that Jabbar Gaffney - who averages about 12 ypc - was as effective as a deep WR as Stallworth was?

If anything your stats prove me correct.

Go back to the heart of the question instead of throwing out arbitrary numbers.

The Patriots dominated teams early in the season thanks largely to the dominant deep game of Randy Moss.

When teams adjusted and contained Moss' effectiveness in the deep game, did our offensive strategy adjust and utilize the talent of Stallworth - who had AVERAGED nearly 20 yards a catch the year before with 38 catches in an injury plagued season?

No they did not. He caught 4 passes thrown more than 20 yards to him during the regular season. And neither Gaffney's presence nor Faulk's nor Maroney's were "stretching the field" any more than Stallworth's.

Asserting that Faulk and Maroney and Gaffney had comparable deep stats to Stallworth doesn't help your case - it undermines it, especially when we had the need for an alternative deep threat to Moss, and the underutilized talent right there on our team in Stallworth.

The two possibilities are that McDaniels, or whoever you want to blame, made a strategic mistake by consistently failing to use Stallworth in the way he should have been utilized

OR

That Stallworth was potentially limited by an undisclosed injury (hamstring) and really COULDN'T be used as a deep threat.

At the beginning of the season it seems to me just having Stallworth on the field - knowing how productive he was at 19 ypc last year - was enough to counter the tendency to attempt to shut down Moss. But as the season wore on, and McDaniels consistently failed to call Stallworth's number for deep routes, DC's determined he was not a threat, and continued to shut down Moss and collapse the defense, without any real fear of suffering the consequences of being burned deep.

That's something that the Offensive Coordinator would certainly have some input in - now if you want to make similar criticisms of OTHER TEAMS offensive coordinators, be my guest, but I think this thread is focusing on what the Patriots did with two premier deep threat WRs on the team - not what other teams did, whether they had two, one, or none.

The Diversity argument died. The "only Moss deep" died. Now you move the goalposts and complain because Gaffney was getting deep passes and not just Stallworth? What's next, the 'grassy knoll' argument? Way to move those goalposts!

You were wrong with regards to your evidence. End of story.

 

[BradyManny]

And, I find it hilarious that you say that Brady is Clutch, but give no credit to Weis, yet when it comes to Brady not executing, you put all the blame on McDaniels.

You're just trying to polarize things or be a contrarian by taking an unpopular stance on Brady.

As I said in another thread, if Asante Samuel makes that catch and ends the game, Brady would have been one of the top few reasons we would have won a game in which many of our players played poorly. And on the flip side, since we lost, he is very low on the blame list.

And yes, the coaching staff is most certainly higher up on the list. As is the offensive line, and first and foremost are the New York Giants.

But you're anti-Brady rampage is a pretty transparent attempt to deflect criticism from McD, whether that criticism is deserved or not. You're doing exactly what you're accusing everyone else of. Your entire argument is predicated on the ridiculous assumption that Brady has the responsibility & duties of - and should share the same level of expertise as - the head coach, offensive coordinator and offensive line coach. I believe it was MoLewisRocks who in another thread explained why the emphasis on the "mike call" is overblown and that its Koppen who is responsible for protection, and last I checked, MoLewisRocks is pretty pro-McD. He's just not resorting to going to the other extreme - and blaming Brady for no reason - to make his point.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The Diversity argument died. The "only Moss deep" died. Now you move the goalposts and complain because Gaffney was getting deep passes and not just Stallworth? What's next, the 'grassy knoll' argument? Way to move those goalposts!

You were wrong. End of story.

The issue here is that you consider Gaffney a deep threat because he caught as many deep passes (more actually) as Stallworth (5 and 4 respectively)

4 deeply thrown balls doesn't qualify EITHER of them a deep threat in the eyes of a DC - and I openly wonder why McDaniels wouldn't utilize Stallworth - a proven deep threat the season before - in that way when we needed him in that role.

So diversity in the deep game was and remains an issue when talking about McDaniels' playcalling whether you consider it "dead" or not.

You can say "you are wrong" all you want or use words like "ass" and "untenable" but the fact is that Reche Caldwell had as many 20+ yard catches when he played for the Patriots as Stallworth did, and you still don't think there's anything wrong with McDaniels' play calling.

 

[Deus Irae]

The issue here is that you consider Gaffney a deep threat because he caught as many deep passes (more actually) as Stallworth (5 and 4 respectively)

4 deeply thrown balls doesn't qualify EITHER of them a deep threat in the eyes of a DC - and I openly wonder why McDaniels wouldn't utilize Stallworth - a proven deep threat the season before - in that way when we needed him in that role.

So diversity in the deep game was and remains an issue when talking about McDaniels' playcalling whether you consider it "dead" or not.

You can say "you are wrong" all you want or use words like "ass" and "untenable" but the fact is that Reche Caldwell had as many 20+ yard catches when he played for the Patriots as Stallworth did, and you still don't think there's anything wrong with McDaniels' play calling.

No, the issue was whether or not your assertion regarding Moss was correct. It wasn't. The rest is just you trying to move the goalposts of a failed argument.

 

[JoeSixPat]

No, the issue was whether or not your assertion regarding Moss was correct. It wasn't. The rest is just you trying to move the goalposts of a failed argument.

Go back to my original post if you'd like where I talk about the questionable utilization of Stallworth if you'd like, and then perhaps answer whether you feel Caldwell was a significant deep threat in 2006 as he had the similar numbers to Stallworth.

But just because you choose to warp the context and twist people words just because you seem to enjoy being insulting and argumentative doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong. It's actually quite pathetic.

 

[Deus Irae]

Go back to my original post if you'd like where I talk about the questionable utilization of Stallworth if you'd like, and then perhaps answer whether you feel Caldwell was a significant deep threat in 2006 as he had the similar numbers to Stallworth.

But just because you choose to warp the context and twist people words just because you seem to enjoy being insulting and argumentative doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong. It's actually quite pathetic.

What's pathetic is your argument. Did you even bother to read the numbers I posted on the other top teams? Moss didn't even lead the cited group in these 'long' receptions, and the diversity you were crying about was in full evidence. As I said, you were wrong. Now, you have a nice day.

 

[maverick4]

The Diversity argument died. The "only Moss deep" died. Now you move the goalposts and complain because Gaffney was getting deep passes and not just Stallworth? What's next, the 'grassy knoll' argument? Way to move those goalposts!

You were wrong with regards to your evidence. End of story.

This thinking is way too simplistic. I don't think you adeqately dispelled the 'only Moss deep' theory. Thinking back on the season, we really never threw any bombs to anyone else besides Moss. After defenses adusted to this, we didn't really adjust and got screwed later on. This always happens to us under McDaniels, things go great but once the defense figures out how to stop us, he doesn't know what to do.

 

[Deus Irae]

This thinking is way too simplistic. I don't think you adeqately dispelled the 'only Moss deep' theory. Thinking back on the season, we really never threw any bombs to anyone else besides Moss. After defenses adusted to this, we didn't really adjust and got screwed later on. This always happens to us under McDaniels, things go great but once the defense figures out how to stop us, he doesn't know what to do.

Again.... the numbers prove you wrong. Then again, you've been looking to bash the O.C. for anything you can make up, so it's not surprising that you ignore those numbers.

 

[unoriginal]

I believe it was MoLewisRocks who in another thread explained why the emphasis on the "mike call" is overblown and that its Koppen who is responsible for protection, and last I checked, MoLewisRocks is pretty pro-McD.

Link to post?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=832623&postcount=17

EDIT 2: I'm just going to repost MoLewisrocks' post here because I like it so much:

How the hell are we supposed to back into our indivudual critical amatuer conclusions if we are limited to the facts as they exist on film...

Brady calls the mike, he doesn't set the protections - that is Koppen's job. Brady calls the play in the huddle based on what his OC is sending in which is based on the game plan for down, distance and defense. That game plan is a collaborative effort based on film study of the Giants, Bill's input on their likely defense, Brady's comfort level with individual plays and players, prior game and practice performance impacting personnel packages, health of available players prior to and in game. Brady adjusts actual plays at the line only if the defense he's presented is different than expected and he sees a favorable matchup he can adjust to with the personnel package already on the field. Receivers and linemen are expected to sight adjust to coverage post snap as does Brady. If one guy gets the adjustment wrong the entire play can become toast. You can seldom diagnose who or what went wrong absent coaches film.

No QB in the league today calls his own game, including Peyton Manning. That is because personnel packages often dictate/limit available calls on any given snap. Manning gets sent in 2 plays from which to choose to audible although he can also audible out to something entirely different within the constraints of who is on the field with him. Although the Colts don't sub package nearly as often as we do. And yet he misses receivers a lot these days probably because his injury replacement players aren't quite up to the task.

Brady sending Stallworth deep to beat the double coverage on Moss is ******ed... It wasn't that Moss couldn't beat the double team, it was that Brady didn't have time to make any downfield throw without getting smacked in the mouth 3 out of 4 times...:violent:

Welker tied the superbowl records of Jerry Rice and Deion Branch for SB receptions. Unfortunately it wasn't enough. Other short options were so well covered they either resulted in too little yardget to extend drives or at times little or no yardage in part because things like screens actually take time to set up and Brady didn't have that and the Giants were defending short exceptionally well and dropping those targets at or barely beyond the LOS.

For whatever reason or a number of reasons the OL **** the bed. They lost the one on one physical battles at the LOS for all but the first series before the Giants got dialed in and the second to last series when the Giants D was gassed AND they make a substitution error on punt coverage that forced them back onto the field. They didn't execute the correct call or they got the call wrong or the Giants were able to disguise their limited blitzes so well that they could not adjust post snap to pick up the extra man because they were struggling just to block 4. Yet the kill skippy crowd wants to blame anyone but those linemen and their long time coach and assistant HC...and heaven forbid credit the Giants D for remaining consistent and committed to executing their DC's game plan.

Belichick was far more concerned with his defense, as well he should have been following that opening 10 minute clock eating drive. He appeared to have gotten that leak in the dyke patched while his offense marched down the field for a first drive score to take the lead. But then Spagnuolo got his defense on track too, and both remained there until Belichick's D gave up back to back TD drives in the 4th quarter. Belichick's O managed to sandwich a go ahead drive in between as the Giants D was finally gassed after 3 quarters of shutout defense had them sucking fumes. Our offense didn't get a legit shot at another drive because their defense couldn't get off the field for two and a half minutes with only three minutes and change left in the game. They had their chances, which is a sign of good coaching, but the players in position could not make the play, period.

You could say the same thing on offense - the game plan was sound - receivers could get open deep and open in the mid range. Problem was Brady was under so much pressure he couldn't get many of those kinds of throw off cleanly. As Manning would say, Brady had protection problems - and that was a result of an Oline who simply couldn't make/hold their blocks consistently. It wasn't scheme correctable because it wasn't one weak link we could support with a TE (although they weren't having a great day either...). The entire line had it's struggles, from the usual suspects to the guys you never worry about. Coaches can't overcome that, so they tried to merely hang on assuming the Giants would eventually run out of gas. They did, just a little too late, or a little too early - depending on how you want to look at the last several minutes of the game.

And yet, we were one key stop or one makeable FG not attempted from winning our 4th Superbowl in 7 years. Yeah, lets blame skippy...

 

[Deus Irae]

This thinking is way too simplistic. I don't think you adeqately dispelled the 'only Moss deep' theory. Thinking back on the season, we really never threw any bombs to anyone else besides Moss. After defenses adusted to this, we didn't really adjust and got screwed later on. This always happens to us under McDaniels, things go great but once the defense figures out how to stop us, he doesn't know what to do.

Two other teams to look at, with 1 & 1a type receivers:

Cardinals

Boldin caught only 5 balls thrown 21 yards or more downfield, Fitzgerald caught 10. They combined for 1 catch of 41+ yards

Bengals

Johnson caught 9 balls thrown for 21+ in the air, 2 from 41+. Houshmandzadeh had 4 of 21+ the whole season, and none longer than 30 yards. Palmer threw 20-59 on passes of 21+, and was 4-14 from 41+.

So, that's now

Colts
Giants
Bengals
Cardinals
Packers

None of those teams were more successful than the Patriots at going deep and none of them really had any more diversity doing it than New England. Heck, if you took away the second half of the Miami game when Brady was clearly just hoisting the ball looking for the record, the numbers get even better. There's a difference between the O.C. not doing what you'd prefer and the O.C. doing things poorly.

In the NFL, as in life, competence ≠ perfection and perfection is not required in order to be competent.

 

[maverick4]

Again.... the numbers prove you wrong.

Actually, did you even read J6P's post, using the numbers and stats?

Are you by any chance a neocon supporter? Your reasoning ability seems eerily similar. OK, I'll stay away from politics.

 

[Deus Irae]

Actually, did you even read J6P's post, using the numbers and stats?

Are you by any chance a neocon supporter? Your reasoning ability seems eerily similar. OK, I'll stay away from politics.

Yes, I read his post. Like you, he was wrong.

 

[unoriginal]

The issue here is that you consider Gaffney a deep threat because he caught as many deep passes (more actually) as Stallworth (5 and 4 respectively)

4 deeply thrown balls doesn't qualify EITHER of them a deep threat in the eyes of a DC - and I openly wonder why McDaniels wouldn't utilize Stallworth - a proven deep threat the season before - in that way when we needed him in that role.

So diversity in the deep game was and remains an issue when talking about McDaniels' playcalling whether you consider it "dead" or not.

"The use of Stallworth" argument is kind of mystifiying to me, perhaps you or someone else can explain it?

For one, I don't consider him to be a "proven" wide receiver in our offense at all. He's been here one year and - correct me if I'm wrong - speculation was he lost considerable amounts of playing time to Gaffney late in the year because Gaffney understood the offense better.

He also had, by and large, a similar season statistically this year to other seasons where he's been the primary threat on the outside.

All in all, I don't see the argument for his misuse in our offense. You can only send so many people deep on a given play, and Moss is probably a better deep target - and from the way he was spoken of and used, likely understood the offense much better than Stallworth.

 

[The Dog]

It wasn't the play calling. They ran the same stuff they always did. The Giant DB's did a nice job tackling on the wr screens. Brady missed a few guys. The o-line got beat. To question the play calling is just silly.

 

[maverick4]

It wasn't the play calling. They ran the same stuff they always did. .

This is EXACTLY THE POINT. They just kept stubbornly running the same stuff they have done all season, even though the Giants D had figured them out.
How can you say it wasn't the play calling, and then admit they just stuck with what worked without adjusting?

This stubborn thinking is why Brady was sacked 5 times with EIGHTEEN knockdowns. Even a horrible O-Line won't have numbers like that if you aren't as stubborn as McDaniels was with all the 7-step drop plays.