NOT worried about LB or WR

[Water Boy]

A.J. makes a great point.

Chad Brown, Monty Beisel, and Barry Gardner (to a lesser degree) are names synonymous with the early season breakdowns of 2005. Unfairly.

Why is it unfair to associate Chad Brown and Monty Beisel with early season breakdowns of 2005? They were not the only problem, but they were a big part of the problem. I just can't understand what the heck you and AJ are possibly thinking on this issue.

Ted Johson, Roman Phifer, and Willie McGinest are names synonymous with the successes of 2001, '03, and '04.

Each of these players contributed significantly towards the success of the team during these years.

For that simple reason, the former tend to be underrated, while the latter tend to be overrated.

Because of that, fans would be satisfied if those "bad names" were replaced with "good" names like Claiborne, Ruff, or Phifer or T.J. But the fact of the matter is, all of those names are either victims or beneficiaries of their supporting cast and their time with their repsective teams. If replacing "bad" with "good" helps fans sleep at night, good for them.

Your logic is so twisted, I can't believe it. Those of us with concerns about the ILBs are basing our beliefs on what we've seen. We know from last season that Beisel and Brown can not adequately man the ILB position. Bruschi is going to be injured for part of the season and the nature of his injury maybe problematic. BB and Pioli made no significant moves in the off season to address the depth of the ILB position. By letting McGinest go to Cleveland and by having to move Vrabel to the inside as a necessary measure, the skill level at the OLB position is going to suffer too.

 

[jimleehunt]

AJ- my 2 cents: we are fine at olb. we are NOT fine at ilb. beisel worked out hard in the offseason and added 10 lbs of muscle-i was anticipating an improvement in his game-but every report indicates he has REGRESSED, not improved. still early in the preseason-but hes the biggest disappointment so far-and by far the worst ilb weve had in the brady era. somebody mentioned an "ace" up bb's sleeve-vrabel at ilb. that might be the only answer,since covin is solid and tbc has looked better at olb than of the ilb candidates. but tbc would still be a far cry from vrabel. our olb depth is solid-our ilb depth is terrible.
ol-a great strength. best of the brady era.
wr- because the pats are so strong at qb,rb,ol and tes--the lack of depth at wr is not as much of an issue as it usually would be- but it still IS an issue. how in the world can you say cj and (ugh!choke!gasp!) caldwell are upgrades over givens? caldwell has flat out sukked. in the long run, cj could well be a stud and be much better than givens-but that wont happen until late in the season. (at best). so thats 3 viable wrs-branch,cj(who is still injured-has almost no practice time with brady and therefore no rhthym)and ageless troy. so depth is an issue.
despite the above- i still think this could be the best pats team ever.

 

[pats1]

So much for not replacing Willie's talent.

A 5th overall pick, and 12-time Pro Bowler.

Junior Seau.

 

[Water Boy]

So much for not replacing Willie's talent.

A 5th overall pick, and 12-time Pro Bowler.

Junior Seau.

If I had my choice, I'd rather have Willie.

 

[pats1]

If I had my choice, I'd rather have Willie.

Anybody would.

I'm just trying to prove his point wrong.

 

[AzPatsFan]

When we look back with favorable memories on "Ye Good Olde Days" of great depth with McG, Vrabel, Tedy, Rosey and TJ, please remember that we seldom had all of these guys, at the same time.

TJ missed at least a season plus, so did Bru. Rosey was down for a season and a half, and Phife missed probably a half season in cumulative ding time. McG probably missed 3/4 of a season too, some to his back, and the balance on other assorted dings.

So at any one time, we never had that fantastic depth, that everyone is comparing today against. If we did Matt Chatham wouldn't have been a starter for 3/4 of a season. As I recall, our Mr.Irrelevant also played for half a season too, filling in for somebody. Funny I can't recall his name, but he was a gutty but undertalented try-hard guy.

 

[RayClay]

Ray Clay,

Wait a minute. If you want to compare Vrabel to somebody, how about Vrabel to Vrabel? He's still here. He hasn't gone anywhere.

Likewise, If you want to compare Tedy to somebody, how about Tedy to Tedy? He's still here. He hasn't gone anywhere. (although dinged up through TC, but he was also occasionally nicked in days of old, including half of 2005)

If you want to compare McGinnest to a relative newcomer, the fair thing is McGinnest 4th overall, two time pro bowler OLB, to Chad Brown 2nd round and 3 time PB, OLB. Both older veterans and nearing the end. McG was asked to play essentially full time last year, when the original plan was for spot duty. Brown is planed for spot duty, may be asked to play more, at OLB, but only if TBC, after 4 years of grooming, can't step up. Especially if Vrabel spends time inside.

Mincey and Woods and Roach are essentially irrelevant, but better than end of roster guys last year, who I don't even recall their names, now.

Now if you want to compare Beisel last season, to Beisel this season, I have no complaint.

If you want to compare Gardner to Izzo, as a LB, in 2005 or 2006, I'd say that is a clear win for Gardner. As a ST, Gardner is not as good a ST as Izzo was three or four years ago, but Larry slipped badly on ST last season. Gardner might be his ST equal today. He certainly is four or five years younger.

I'm comparing players acquired. Bruschi and Colvin are still here too. I'm just noting that none of these were UDFA's and some had extensive experience.

The player we hope for the future might be great but they are lower picks or non picks or older veterans like Phifer, although I doubt Chad Brown plays as long as Roman.

It's hard to stick to the point of an argument over many pages, but I'm just disagreeing with Andy Johnson that our old or current backers, when acquired were equally unlikely to succeed.

We had better raw talent based on measurables, draft position, success elsewhere.

 

[RayClay]

Anybody would.

I'm just trying to prove his point wrong.

You win.

Like I said, it's hard to stay on argument over many pages.

Seau's got stats you can't argue with. But I don't think he and Chad Brown combined will play as many Pats games as Phifer.

But to be quite honest, nobody thought Phifer had more than a year in him so who knows.

Still doesn't deal with the LB situation for the future.

And to address the point of this thread, if the Pats were set at linebacker, no way they would sign a 37 year old out of retirement.

I don't care if he was named Butkus.

 

[shmessy]

When we look back with favorable memories on "Ye Good Olde Days" of great depth with McG, Vrabel, Tedy, Rosey and TJ, please remember that we seldom had all of these guys, at the same time.

TJ missed at least a season plus, so did Bru. Rosey was down for a season and a half, and Phife missed probably a half season in cumulative ding time. McG probably missed 3/4 of a season too, some to his back, and the balance on other assorted dings.

So at any one time, we never had that fantastic depth, that everyone is comparing today against. If we did Matt Chatham wouldn't have been a starter for 3/4 of a season. As I recall, our Mr.Irrelevant also played for half a season too, filling in for somebody. Funny I can't recall his name, but he was a gutty but undertalented try-hard guy.

Marty Moore??

 

[RayClay]

Marty Moore??

Good backup. Stayed around long enough to learn. Todd Collins was pretty good and Chris Slade too.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Marty Moore??

Thanks

How soon we forget...

 

[captain stone]

It now appears that the FO is, indeed, worried enough about LB. If Junior Seau doesn't join us, somebody else will. Of that forecast, I am now fairly confident.

Perhaps the next task for the FO will be the WRs. I, also, take umbrage at the premature comparison of Givens and Dwight to Caldwell and Jackson. The latter pair may prove to be an upgrade over the former; however, Jackson has to play in a game first, and Caldwell has to be productive in one. I am still dismayed that Tim Dwight was not re-signed; he is inexpensive, and is an experienced and reliable returner, who also made the catch of the year in Miami. Even with Branch returning, Jackson healthy and Caldwell not dropping 2 out of 3 passes, this group is still short one player. C'mon, FO, I know you can find us one more WR.

 

[Water Boy]

When we look back with favorable memories on "Ye Good Olde Days" of great depth with McG, Vrabel, Tedy, Rosey and TJ, please remember that we seldom had all of these guys, at the same time...

So at any one time, we never had that fantastic depth, that everyone is comparing today against.

The definition of depth is having enough quality players to overcome injuries that may occur during the season. The Pats were able to win 3 super bowls despite numerous injuries to the linebacking corp during that time period.

 

[Miguel]

It now appears that the FO is, indeed, worried enough about LB.

I do not know how else the interest in Seau can be thought of. I would like to hear how AJ and all those who praised him in this thread spin this to support their argument.

 

[patsfan13]

Marty Moore??

"Mr Irrelevant" who played a few years as a ST player in the 90's.

 

[PatsFan37]

I do not know how else the interest in Seau can be thought of. I would like to hear how AJ and all those who praised him in this thread spin this to support their argument.

It may also say something about how they decide when to negotiate contracts. The cap space available may be burning a hole in the pockets of fans, but the FO is probably looking at how and whether to re-sign Branch, Samuel, Graham, and Koppen, and weighing that cost against the need to plug holes where current players haven't met expectations or have been injured.

And unfortunately, three more pre-season games present more opportunities for injury before the final roster cut-downs across the league.

So we're waiting for the money to be spent and wondering why they haven't made a move. They're waiting to see how the team shapes up to see how much money they'll have to spread around.

Later today, they may have one more starting LB and one million less in cap space, neither of which could have been anticipated this time last week.

 

[Garbanza]

Sorry folks, some of you may not be worried about the LB position, but clearly Belichick is. If the potential Seau signing is not a sign of concern, I do not know what is. As I have stated all along - Donnie Edwards would look terrific in a Pats uniform.

 

[pats1]

I do not know how else the interest in Seau can be thought of. I would like to hear how AJ and all those who praised him in this thread spin this to support their argument.

They might know something about Bruschi we don't. They may, considering Beisel missing camp and sliding down the depth chart lately, may think a lot less highly of Beisel than we do.

 

[Ring 6]

Bringing in an experienced vet for depth is not a panic move, or a sign that there is immense concern.
Seau is good enough to make the team. That doesnt mean we are in shambles without him.

If you read my post clearly, what I am saying is that BB has always plugged players in to make a strong LB unit. He has taken many players that were decent intelligent players and gotten the most of them. My point was that we have players on the roster to duplicate what the 'fillins' have done, and while it is not obvious at this point who they are or what their roles will be, the LB position is on no different or worse shape than it has been under BB since he's been here; it is still a matter of molding together a unit of a few very good players, some role players and some players who are adequate. (The difference is the 'adequate' guys used to be overrated guys, and today they are underrated guys)
Adding Seau fits this exactly. He will be another guy who will be out of position, beyond his prime and plugged in to play a role. Whether it were him, or Beisel, or Gardner or Brown, is pretty irrelevant to me, because BB has shown he will get good play from the LB unit, however he fits it together. Seau is just another option to work with.

 

[Mike the Brit]

They may, considering Beisel missing camp and sliding down the depth chart lately, may think a lot less highly of Beisel than we do.

Ummm ... who's this " we" pats1?