PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

NOT worried about LB or WR


Status
Not open for further replies.
LB
You are not concerned, but bb and pioli are. They brought in two veterans and they are now discussing players with Dallas. I trust we are also talking to other teams.

WR
You look at all the wide receivers from last year, and look at the production from the top three, saying that is all we need. I agree. However, how do we know that Caldwell's production or Jackson's will be anywhere near that f Givens. Jackson is an injured rookie. Rookies usually are often not productive during their first year. You also are counting on Branch who isn't in camp, and Troy who is a minor injury away from retirement. This can all work out, but we worry.

OL
You don't worry about Jackson's injury, for whom we have no backup, and you worry about Koppen and Light? They're fine. As you well know, Hoch looked fine last year, and O'Callaghan is looking fine in camp. Kaycur would make this a top OL, and allow us to trade the unmentionable one.



AndyJohnson said:
I am absolutely not concerned about LB or WR.

We have witnessed BB win 3 SBs in 5 years, and do it at least equally because of defense, and mostly more because of defense than offense.
There is a groundswell of worry about the LB postion, so lets look back and see the past vs the present. It would seem that everyone looks back fondly at the LB position from 01 to at least 04 if not last year as well especially after Bruschi returned.

Starting in 01, the LB unit was made up of 1 certainty, Bruschi, plus McGinest but at the time we were a 43 team and McG was a DE.

In 2001 we brought in totally unknown and unproven Mike Vrabel.
We brought in Roman Phifer who was desinged to be a 3rd down cover guy ONLY. (BB specificially said this when he was signed) We brought in Bryan Cox who had little left, and barely played after being injured. We revived Ted Johnson off the scrap heap. (By the way TJ barely played in 01, was almost cut in 02, then almost quit when deactivated, was allowed to seek a trade in 03.)
In 02 still in the 43, we has Phifer, Bruschi, Vrabel and no depth. By the way, Ted Johnson, when filling in for Bruschi may have been the worst MLB in the NFL.

In 03 we added Colvin and went to the 34. He got hurt, Vrabel got hurt, and we won games with Matt Chatham starting. BB reinvented Roman Phifer as an ILB. (By the way, Phifer was no better vs the run than anyone on our current roster at ILB) We won the SB with McGinest, Vrabel playing about half the season, Colcin palying 2 games, and Matt Chatham at OLB. With Bruschi, Phifer and Ted Johnson, again a well below average LB inside.

In 2004, we won the SB with basically the same crew.

BB has fielded excellent defenses by converting a DE to OLB (McGinest was far from a rush only OLB in 03 and 04 and successfully handled a lot of duties his skillset was not best suited for) converting an OLB to ILB, a guy who was far from a strong 2gap take on the G ILB. (Im not knocking Phifer, he was just a huge stretch as an ILB skillset-wise) With an over the hill fill in who consistenty was run at and over filling in. With OLBs that were never fully healthy (if Vrabel and Colvin play 16 games, at full strength it will add up to at least as much as we ever got out of the 3 OLB rotation, because they were almost never all 3 healthy at full stength together).

Its easy to fall into the trap that we 'knew' TJ even though he wasnt very good. That we 'knew' Phifer, even though he was very out of position at ILB. That Cox was a 'name' even though he hardly played in the SB run.

BB has taken players some good, some bad, some known, some unknown, some in postion, some out of position, and always molded a strong LB unit.
This year, the names are different (outside of the top 3) but if BB can have a great D with TJ and Phifer playing ILB, he can do it with Monte Beisel. If he can turn Chatham and Ted Johnson into depth and overcome injuries to LBs, he can figure out how to win with Chad Brown, Barry Gardner, TBC and a bunch of promising young guys as depth.

At WR, Branch will be here, it makes no sense for him not to be. Last year, we had Branch, Givens, Brown and no one else who did much.
My opinion is that Givens was a reflection of Brady, and that is not a novel opinion. Caldwell and Jackson replacing Givens and Dwight is an upgrade. Watson will be more invovled, the running game will be better. There is absolutely zero chance that the reason we do not win the SB this year is the WR position.

My concerns are the secondary, and potentially OL.
I think we have numbers in the secondary, but questions.
I like Samuel, but why does he seem to be battling for a starting job? I know Wilson is a corner by trade, but how will he do there after not playing it for 3 years (IF he is going to)? I'm not ready to enshrine Hobbs, but he did have a good rookie year. Warfield seems like another in a long line of vet corners from other teams who come here and dont fit our scheme. Gay tome is fighting for a spot on the roster, and isnt someone I would consider a certain plus at corner. Chad Scott at this point is end of the bench/injury replacement depth.
Rodney's health is a question. If he is out and Wilson moves to corner, what are we left with? Hawkins did OK, but is a converted corner. Sanders appears to be having a good camp, but lacks experience, and our track record in drafting safeties is questionable. Im Ok with Tebucky playing safety but would hope someone else keeps him off the field. Gus Scott? Who knows if he can play?
There are many questions, but also many potential answers. My concern is relying on guys who 'did well for a while' ie Gay, Hobbs, Hawkins, within a unit. Its not rare for those type of guys to struggle at some point later; guys that may appear to be slipping (Samuel, Wilson) or guys that are unknown (Harrison due to health, Sanders, Scott) or guys that we do not yet know if they can play our system effectively, C Scott, Warfield.
In the end it will of course be better than last year unless everyone gets hurt agian, but it must be a lot better than last year for this team to realize its potential.

On the OL, a healthy line of Light-Mankins-Koppen-Neal-Kaczur backed up by Gorin, Hochstein, OCallahan, etc is very exciting. We will be a dominant O if that happens. But 60% of that OL has injury concerns. Having to rely on rookies or virtual rookies (Mruc, Yates, Britt etc) could drastically change the dynamic of the OL. I think with eveyone healthy we have a top 5 OL, but with many injuries, we will struggle to be consistent, especially against top Ds.
 
mgteich said:
LB
You are not concerned, but bb and pioli are. They brought in two veterans and they are now discussing players with Dallas. I trust we are also talking to other teams.

OL
You don't worry about Jackson's injury, for whom we have no backup, and you worry about Koppen and Light? They're fine. As you well know, Hoch looked fine last year, and O'Callaghan is looking fine in camp. Kaycur would make this a top OL, and allow us to trade the unmentionable one.

So why are you campaigning against trading Hall of Famer Brandon Gorin for Shanle on another thread???? Are there two Mgteichs?
 
Re: Wilson in run support

Mike the Brit said:
I think it's a bit dangerous to argue from 2001-2004 as precedents for getting the linebacker problem solved with under-appreciated free agents.

Not only did that route conspicuously NOT work last season,
What do you mean it didn't?

It got us to the second round of playoffs and the reason we were bumped out vs Denver was NOT because of LBs.

I don't see how something that works for five years is suddenly dangerous this year. Expecially when the same fearful moaning went on all those other years too.
 
Yeah I think your LB assessment is way off TJ and an aging Phifer and Cox are head and shoulders above the scrubbage we have today....not even close.
 
I'm with Kurt and mgteich. I seriously do'nt see how people are not concerned with ILB after Friday, and knowing the Bruschi is injured. I respect AJ's opinion, but do not always consider it gospel like soo many seem to.

IMO , these comments are way off base:

By the way, Ted Johnson, when filling in for Bruschi may have been the worst MLB in the NFL.

BB reinvented Roman Phifer as an ILB. (By the way, Phifer was no better vs the run than anyone on our current roster at ILB)
.

To suggest that Beisel is as good or better than Phifer at stopping the run is just plain wrong. I dont see how you can say that, unless you are simply trying defending your position from last year at this time that Beisel would be a stud.

IMO, Phifer did a lot more for this team, in run support, pass protection, and special teams..... in his first year, second year, etc.. than Beisel has even come close to showing. Him and Gardner have a long way to go before they come remotely close the contributions of Phifer or TJ. Again, just my opinion.

If anyone things that BB / Piolo aren't concerned , why did we bring in MLB / ILB rejects from the Lions and Browns roster? Why is Wilson being brought closer to the line? To be a dedicated nickle corner??? hmmmmm
 
zoostation said:
Even Brucshi was not a certainty going into the 01 season as nany still considered him an under-sized sub. Not many people thought he would be able to last a full season as a starter. Obviously we were all wrong....but that was the veiwpoint of many. McGinest was the certainty back then...and the stud of the LB core
In 2001 Bruschi was an OLB. He only moved inside when TJ and COX went down. I was always hoping he would move back outside when possible because of his speed and coverage skills, but instead he turned into a Pro Bowl ILB. This reminds me of Vrabel.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
AndyJohnson said:
I am absolutely not concerned about LB or WR.

We have witnessed BB win 3 SBs in 5 years, and do it at least equally because of defense, and mostly more because of defense than offense.
There is a groundswell of worry about the LB postion, so lets look back and see the past vs the present. It would seem that everyone looks back fondly at the LB position from 01 to at least 04 if not last year as well especially after Bruschi returned.

Starting in 01, the LB unit was made up of 1 certainty, Bruschi, plus McGinest but at the time we were a 43 team and McG was a DE.

In 2001 we brought in totally unknown and unproven Mike Vrabel.
We brought in Roman Phifer who was desinged to be a 3rd down cover guy ONLY. (BB specificially said this when he was signed) We brought in Bryan Cox who had little left, and barely played after being injured. We revived Ted Johnson off the scrap heap. (By the way TJ barely played in 01, was almost cut in 02, then almost quit when deactivated, was allowed to seek a trade in 03.)
In 02 still in the 43, we has Phifer, Bruschi, Vrabel and no depth. By the way, Ted Johnson, when filling in for Bruschi may have been the worst MLB in the NFL.

In 03 we added Colvin and went to the 34. He got hurt, Vrabel got hurt, and we won games with Matt Chatham starting. BB reinvented Roman Phifer as an ILB. (By the way, Phifer was no better vs the run than anyone on our current roster at ILB) We won the SB with McGinest, Vrabel playing about half the season, Colcin palying 2 games, and Matt Chatham at OLB. With Bruschi, Phifer and Ted Johnson, again a well below average LB inside.

In 2004, we won the SB with basically the same crew.

BB has fielded excellent defenses by converting a DE to OLB (McGinest was far from a rush only OLB in 03 and 04 and successfully handled a lot of duties his skillset was not best suited for) converting an OLB to ILB, a guy who was far from a strong 2gap take on the G ILB. (Im not knocking Phifer, he was just a huge stretch as an ILB skillset-wise) With an over the hill fill in who consistenty was run at and over filling in. With OLBs that were never fully healthy (if Vrabel and Colvin play 16 games, at full strength it will add up to at least as much as we ever got out of the 3 OLB rotation, because they were almost never all 3 healthy at full stength together).

Its easy to fall into the trap that we 'knew' TJ even though he wasnt very good. That we 'knew' Phifer, even though he was very out of position at ILB. That Cox was a 'name' even though he hardly played in the SB run.

BB has taken players some good, some bad, some known, some unknown, some in postion, some out of position, and always molded a strong LB unit.
This year, the names are different (outside of the top 3) but if BB can have a great D with TJ and Phifer playing ILB, he can do it with Monte Beisel. If he can turn Chatham and Ted Johnson into depth and overcome injuries to LBs, he can figure out how to win with Chad Brown, Barry Gardner, TBC and a bunch of promising young guys as depth.

At WR, Branch will be here, it makes no sense for him not to be. Last year, we had Branch, Givens, Brown and no one else who did much.
My opinion is that Givens was a reflection of Brady, and that is not a novel opinion. Caldwell and Jackson replacing Givens and Dwight is an upgrade. Watson will be more invovled, the running game will be better. There is absolutely zero chance that the reason we do not win the SB this year is the WR position.

My concerns are the secondary, and potentially OL.
I think we have numbers in the secondary, but questions.
I like Samuel, but why does he seem to be battling for a starting job? I know Wilson is a corner by trade, but how will he do there after not playing it for 3 years (IF he is going to)? I'm not ready to enshrine Hobbs, but he did have a good rookie year. Warfield seems like another in a long line of vet corners from other teams who come here and dont fit our scheme. Gay tome is fighting for a spot on the roster, and isnt someone I would consider a certain plus at corner. Chad Scott at this point is end of the bench/injury replacement depth.
Rodney's health is a question. If he is out and Wilson moves to corner, what are we left with? Hawkins did OK, but is a converted corner. Sanders appears to be having a good camp, but lacks experience, and our track record in drafting safeties is questionable. Im Ok with Tebucky playing safety but would hope someone else keeps him off the field. Gus Scott? Who knows if he can play?
There are many questions, but also many potential answers. My concern is relying on guys who 'did well for a while' ie Gay, Hobbs, Hawkins, within a unit. Its not rare for those type of guys to struggle at some point later; guys that may appear to be slipping (Samuel, Wilson) or guys that are unknown (Harrison due to health, Sanders, Scott) or guys that we do not yet know if they can play our system effectively, C Scott, Warfield.
In the end it will of course be better than last year unless everyone gets hurt agian, but it must be a lot better than last year for this team to realize its potential.

On the OL, a healthy line of Light-Mankins-Koppen-Neal-Kaczur backed up by Gorin, Hochstein, OCallahan, etc is very exciting. We will be a dominant O if that happens. But 60% of that OL has injury concerns. Having to rely on rookies or virtual rookies (Mruc, Yates, Britt etc) could drastically change the dynamic of the OL. I think with eveyone healthy we have a top 5 OL, but with many injuries, we will struggle to be consistent, especially against top Ds.


Beisel stinks. Hard to proclaim Jackson and Caldwell an upgrade over Givens when Caldwell's entire career has been a dissapointment and Jackson's hasn't even begun.
 
Re: Wilson in run support

spacecrime said:
What do you mean it didn't?

It got us to the second round of playoffs and the reason we were bumped out vs Denver was NOT because of LBs.

I don't see how something that works for five years is suddenly dangerous this year. Expecially when the same fearful moaning went on all those other years too.

Bruschi came back and Vrabel moved inside.
 
AJ,

Welcome back. It has been a lonely vigil, feeling almost alone in trying to ward off the Chicken Littles, for whom the World ended last Tuesday, so nothing can be done about it.

I agree I do not fear either the LB or WR positions. In both cases, BB has unplayed trump cards.

The WRs may prove difficult for the first half of the season as newcomers break in. This is counter-balanced by good TE and RB receiving; but by the second half and the playoffs, a WR corps of Branch, Brown, Caldwell and CJ will have some experience. This is a more intrinsically talented WR contingent, and will be recognized as such, than any of the BB era.


As for the LB "problem", it really is only an ILB "problem"; and really only a ILB depth issue. Hardly the End of Times.

BB has always had an Ace in Reserve that he prefers not to play.

This Ace is unnoticed, unrecognized and or disparaged by the CLs.

That is the proven combo of Vrabel and Bruschi at ILB. This pair has proven over the last half season and playoffs, that they can produce a Top Eight rushing defense and probably even better than that.

BB would prefer to play only one of them at ILB and pair him with a weaker teammate, to produce merely a good rush defense. He apparently desires to sacrifice a dominant and overpowering inside rush defense, as the possible price of some greater strength at OLB. But that trade off is still there, at any time, he chooses to utilize it.

Meanwhile the OLB reserve picture is brightening. Brown has been re-signed after a tough pre-season of conditioning, a year in the system, and a return to his natural position. TBC has improved and appears ready to contribute, four years after showing occasional flashes his first three seasons of his DE/OLB conversion. The rookies, while raw, may contribute a bit too.
 
Also worth considering is not only someone dependable to show up for games but who the 'playmakers' will be. The SB Pats teams had not only a good middle class but guys who made the big plays that change the momentum of games. Specifically to the LB position: McGinest, Vrabel (as an OLB), and Bruschi all made important interceptions, sacks, 3rd down stops, etc when it was crunch time in big games. Now McGinest is gone, Vrabel might be out of position at ILB and Bruschi is hurt again. After that it gets scary for even a dependable starter let alone a game-changing playmaker. It was that kind of D that saved the game for us time and time again (when the O couldn't run out the clock). We won too many close games that should not have gone down to the last few minutes had the O been able to move the ball - let alone put more points on the board.

Looking at the D as a whole -we have yet to find a game changing DB like Law was, LB is thin (Colvin better have a good season) - so it will be up to the defensive line to carry the D this year.

Furthermore, up to the running game to keep the chains moving and the D off the field. The D has always been our strength but I see this year that our offense will finally carry the team - WR questions or not.
 
Re: Wilson in run support

spacecrime said:
What do you mean it didn't?

It got us to the second round of playoffs and the reason we were bumped out vs Denver was NOT because of LBs.

I don't see how something that works for five years is suddenly dangerous this year. Expecially when the same fearful moaning went on all those other years too.

It didn't.

We got Bruschi back, moved OLB Vrabel into the middle and increased Mcginest's, (now gone) work load.:rolleyes:
 
I didn't campaign for or against anything. I indicated that I didn't think that bb would give up Gorin, unless Kaycur is back and they like Britt.

shmessy said:
So why are you campaigning against trading Hall of Famer Brandon Gorin for Shanle on another thread???? Are there two Mgteichs?
 
mgteich said:
I didn't campaign for or against anything. I indicated that I didn't think that bb would give up Gorin, unless Kaycur is back and they like Britt.

My bad, then. I've said all along if this trade is made then BB probably feels Kaczur is ready to come back by the third game, after the first two cupcakes. At the moment, Gorin is the #1 RT, but is #2 when Kaczur is back and could quickly drop to #3 or #4 if Britt and/or O'Callaghan can develop.

I say make this trade if Kaczur can be back by game three. What we get (and the position where we get it) outweighs what we give up.
 
It is an unequal trade, but draft choices will even it out. I have no problems will trading Gorin if Kaycur is healthy and Britt is considered a real prospect. BTW, I would be quite surprised if Kaycur comes back from injury to start at a new position. Much more likely is O'Callaghan at RT, with Kaycur active on game day, backing up both tackle potitions, and Hochstein backing up the interior OL positions. Koppen should be rady to start the season.

shmessy said:
My bad, then. I've said all along if this trade is made then BB probably feels Kaczur is ready to come back by the third game, after the first two cupcakes. At the moment, Gorin is the #1 RT, but is #2 when Kaczur is back and could quickly drop to #3 or #4 if Britt and/or O'Callaghan can develop.

I say make this trade if Kaczur can be back by game three. What we get (and the position where we get it) outweighs what we give up.
 
Do you mean us adding in a draft choice? I read all the stories on Shanle and all the Cowboys fans and they all use the word "solid". I can't remember ever hearing that word for Gorin.
 
Last edited:
Yes, a draft choice. Shanle is a 3rd stringer. Gorin is an experienced starter. The only folks who think Gorin is solid are the coaches of the pats at pioli and bb who extended his contract. And now, apparently, Parcells.
 
mgteich said:
Yes, a draft choice. Shanle is a 3rd stringer. Gorin is an experienced starter. The only folks who think Gorin is solid are the coaches of the pats at pioli and bb who extended his contract. And now, apparently, Parcells.

Huh? If BB and Pioli think he is solid who are the 'other people' that don't, and why would there opinion make you sound as if they are right and BB/Pioli are wrong?
 
kurtinelson said:
I disagree completely with your assessment of our LB situation. I would take any of our past ILBs (Phifer, TJ, Cox) over Biesel et. al. any day. Are you honestly saying that you are comfortable with the depth that the Pats have at ILB this season?

I believe that the best case scenario for our starting LB corp in 2006 is Bruschi (if healthy) and Vrabel at ILB with Colvin and (Brown, TBC, Mincey) at OLB. With the injury to Bruschi we are looking at starting the season with Vrabel and (Biesel, Alexander or Roach?) at ILB. If one or more of Bruschi, Vrabel and Colvin are out at the same time (which history proves is likely to happen) our starting LB corp will be in deep trouble. The Pats have overcome mulitple injuries to their LBs in the past because of their depth, but I don't see any way that can happen this season.

Its my opinion that despite the resources ($13 million in cap space) BB/Pioli did not adequately address the depth of the ILB position, arguably their greatest position of need, in the off-season. Looking at their roster coming into this season, I can't believe that they didn't sign an experienced and serviceable ILB FA or draft a legitimate ILB prospect.

I think that our O-line depth is about as good as we could possibly hope for and our secondary will be fine.

My point is that we were no more comfortable with the guys who stepped in those years than we are with this years guys. Revisionary history says Phifer, TJ, Chatham, Cox were good players, and Vrabel has been a stud, but at the time we first played them they were huge question marks, just as big as the depth we have now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D-cleater said:
I'm with Kurt and mgteich. I seriously do'nt see how people are not concerned with ILB after Friday, and knowing the Bruschi is injured. I respect AJ's opinion, but do not always consider it gospel like soo many seem to.

IMO , these comments are way off base:



.

To suggest that Beisel is as good or better than Phifer at stopping the run is just plain wrong. I dont see how you can say that, unless you are simply trying defending your position from last year at this time that Beisel would be a stud.

IMO, Phifer did a lot more for this team, in run support, pass protection, and special teams..... in his first year, second year, etc.. than Beisel has even come close to showing. Him and Gardner have a long way to go before they come remotely close the contributions of Phifer or TJ. Again, just my opinion.

If anyone things that BB / Piolo aren't concerned , why did we bring in MLB / ILB rejects from the Lions and Browns roster? Why is Wilson being brought closer to the line? To be a dedicated nickle corner??? hmmmmm

I have said for 5 years that Ted Johnson was awful. I didnt take a position that Beisel would be a stud at any point. But actually watching ILBs on plays run at them, Beisel was no worse last year than Ted Johnson the last 5. (I loved TJ before all of his injuries, but he was never the same)Teams consistently ran right at TJ and he could not make plays. He would make his tackles 8 yards downfield. I'm not saying good things about Beisel, the bar is very low to be as good as TJ.

If you read my comments you will see that I was talking about Phifer at INSIDE LINEBACKER. He was a good OLB, he defended the pass well, but he was a stopgap who was overmatched in the running game at ILB.

I am not as you say comparing contributions, I am comparing what we have to work with vs what BB had towork with in other years. I dont think we are worse at ILB than have to convert an OLB who isnt equiiped to play the position or to playing a guy who gets blown 8 yards back whenever he is run at.
You know thenames of who filled in in the past. And youhave a comfort level because we won with them. Roman Phifer had an awful lot to do with the 2001 Championship. He was a stopgap out of position who got us by when he played ILB. Phifer and Ted Johnson were not reasons we won SBs in 03 and 04, they were weak points that we were good enough to overcome. Who those guys will be in 06 and 07 is not fully clear yet, but by 09-10 we will be comparing the fill ins then to these guys, and probably still fearing BB doesnt understand how to staff the LB position.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The people who think tha Gorin is not a "solid player" post on this board each day.

I believe that bb/pioli are right. I apologize if I suggested anything else.

AndyJohnson said:
Huh? If BB and Pioli think he is solid who are the 'other people' that don't, and why would there opinion make you sound as if they are right and BB/Pioli are wrong?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/25: News and Notes
Patriots Kraft ‘Involved’ In Decision Making?  Zolak Says That’s Not the Case
MORSE: Final First Round Patriots Mock Draft
Slow Starts: Stark Contrast as Patriots Ponder Which Top QB To Draft
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/24: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/23: News and Notes
MORSE: Final 7 Round Patriots Mock Draft, Matthew Slater News
Bruschi’s Proudest Moment: Former LB Speaks to MusketFire’s Marshall in Recent Interview
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/22: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-21, Kraft-Belichick, A.J. Brown Trade?
Back
Top