No decision by Commish yet because....

[Fahrenhype]

How is it justified before you know the punishment ?

How about if the punishment is hanging ? Is that justrified ?

:bricks:

I guess I didn't word it correctly. I mean the fact that there is apparently going to be punishment for violating a league rule is justified. As to what would constitute an overzealous punishment... who is to say? What is the precedent on something like this if it's been going on for so long but hasn't been punished openly until now?

Goodell has proven himself to be a reasonable man up to this point. If the price to be paid is to suspend Belichick for a certain number of games so be it. But like others have said, he has to be careful about how far he goes down the rabbit hole.

 

[BelichickFan]

I guess I didn't word it correctly. I mean the fact that there is apparently going to be punishment for violating a league rule is justified.

I agree with that. How he'll come up with an appropriate punishment that will satisfy the masses, I am not sure.

 

[Nordy]

I agree, but it seems the Pats are the only team making their own film....specifically of the other teams coaches using their signals during a game and then using it during the same game. Cheating is cheating yes, and all teams use some form of film study, but it's still a crap shoot on game day, unless you're filming on game day and using that film on the same game day, that's a huge advantage because you're using the game photos given during the game by the NFL and matching it to the calls that game. If teams study game film from a previous weeks game, teams can change their signals from week to week so it's still a crap shoot, but if you're using the NFL photos and sideline signals from the game film you just took their's no chance you don't know what's coming. I'd say that's a big difference.

You're just kidding yourself if you think the Pats are the only team trying to break down the other team's signals during the game. And no, it doesn't seem the Patriots are the only ones making their own film. It just seems they're the ones that got busted because of a bitter former employee.

 

[feelthepain]

It's not official game film. People went out of their way to state it wasn't official. In fact, it was purchased.

As for your last point, you agree that cheating is regularly done by use of technological means. I have no idea what you mean when you say it was not specific? The fact is, they used it to steal signals. What if the Patriots' cameraman was filming cheerleaders' butts, cut to Mangini, the guy in the stands eating a hot dog, cut to Mangini, etc.? You see what I'm getting at? If you're capable of pulling stolen signals off a tape at all, that makes it a hot tape. You can't say, ooops, I don't know how that got on there, I was filming the mating calls of blackbirds that just happened to be flying over the stadium.

And lastly, no one knows how these tapes were used. In fact, Belichick has already said these weren't used during the game. So your charge is just speculation.

If a television station is filming an NFL game, it's NFL property because you have to have a contract with the NFL to film the game. The NFL has their own television crew so they will be at every game, but if you're on the field filming with a camera you need permission from the NFL to be there and you're given specific colored clothing so they know who you are and what you're doing. Such as NFL films (Steve Sabol), you are then given credentials to access the field and filming booths given by the NFL to prevent copy write infringements. Anytime you film under these conditions it's official game film and why when Roger Goodell was given the information last year about this situation involving Miami it was determined Miami was using film belonging to the NFL, therefore there was no violation.

As for your second point, if it were an isolated situation for the Pats, yes you could argue it was an "accident", but there is a long list of complaints...specifically against the Pats for filming teams coaches during games. Last year the Pack had the camera man removed from the sidelines the Bills had complained about the same situation as did the Colts, and these are just the teams that have spoke up. I'd say there is a history with the Pats for filming teams sidelines during games. So your argument is weak.

 

[Trip]

Hey Kool-Aid drinkers Belidick wants you all to send money to Al-Qaeda. Hurry up & get those checks out.

 

[feelthepain]

You're just kidding yourself if you think the Pats are the only team trying to break down the other team's signals during the game. And no, it doesn't seem the Patriots are the only ones making their own film. It just seems they're the ones that got busted because of a bitter former employee.

No problem, just provide the information on the other teams doing what the Pats are doing. I don't want to hear, "it's common knowledge" because the only team I've read, heard or seen doing this type of filming is the Pats'! It would seem Pat fans are a bit fearful of their team losing credit for their success over the last five years. If it turns out that the Pats have been doing this since BB's arrival, then that could be a serious problem for the Pats and what they've done the last five years. * next to every SB victory.

 

[upstater1]

If a television station is filming an NFL game, it's NFL property because you have to have a contract with the NFL to film the game. The NFL has their own television crew so they will be at every game, but if you're on the field filming with a camera you need permission from the NFL to be there and you're given specific colored clothing so they know who you are and what you're doing. Such as NFL films (Steve Sabol), you are then given credentials to access the field and filming booths given by the NFL to prevent copy write infringements. Anytime you film under these conditions it's official game film and why when Roger Goodell was given the information last year about this situation involving Miami it was determined Miami was using film belonging to the NFL, therefore there was no violation.

As for your second point, if it were an isolated situation for the Pats, yes you could argue it was an "accident", but there is a long list of complaints...specifically against the Pats for filming teams coaches during games. Last year the Pack had the camera man removed from the sidelines the Bills had complained about the same situation as did the Colts, and these are just the teams that have spoke up. I'd say there is a history with the Pats for filming teams sidelines during games. So your argument is weak.

You're trying to have it both ways. on the one hand, you're saying the Patriots got caught out. They were caught redhanded. Then you cite this unofficial history of th Patriots, when people keep citing the Packers, and no complaint was ever made. In other words, that's just speculation. The Patriots were never caught for this before. All te so-called history you're citing is innuendo. Which makes it kind of strange that you're using that argument against the Pats, and then you flip the argument around to defend other teams that may or may not have used videotape, because they weren't caught.

Perhaps you're not aware of the Dolphins situation. That wasn't credentialed NFL authorized game tape, or even from a media source authorized by the NFL to tape. It was an audio-recording, and in that news report it was called unofficial. Why? Because the NFL doesn't oversee hat each media outlet does. The Patriots authorize WEEI. The Patriots could easily ask WEEI to film the Phins sideline for them. Doesn't mean it's not cheating. They could also have a fan filming with their top cell phone from their seats. Very easy to do.

 

[Bella*chick]

Hey Kool-Aid drinkers Belidick wants you all to send money to Al-Qaeda. Hurry up & get those checks out.

Oh, man.

Even the trolls are out of material.

 

[feelthepain]

You're trying to have it both ways. on the one hand, you're saying the Patriots got caught out. They were caught redhanded. Then you cite this unofficial history of th Patriots, when people keep citing the Packers, and no complaint was ever made. In other words, that's just speculation. The Patriots were never caught for this before. All te so-called history you're citing is innuendo. Which makes it kind of strange that you're using that argument against the Pats, and then you flip the argument around to defend other teams that may or may not have used videotape, because they weren't caught.

Perhaps you're not aware of the Dolphins situation. That wasn't credentialed NFL authorized game tape, or even from a media source authorized by the NFL to tape. It was an audio-recording, and in that news report it was called unofficial. Why? Because the NFL doesn't oversee hat each media outlet does. The Patriots authorize WEEI. The Patriots could easily ask WEEI to film the Phins sideline for them. Doesn't mean it's not cheating. They could also have a fan filming with their top cell phone from their seats. Very easy to do.

Since, "you think you know" what the Dolphins used during last seasons game, why is it the Commish determined the Dolphins did nothing wrong? Obviously if "YOU" know what Miami used, then the Commish knew. Obviously whatever Miami used wasn't against the rules or they would have been punished for it and they weren't. I guess next you'll say the Commish just likes Miami more?

 

[Crazyeechrispats1]

Yeah you are 100 percent right we don't hear about all the other teams who are doing this.
Theres a reason for that think, think, think, they don't win nearly as much, now you got it.
Let's see if the Oakland Raiders were caught filming coaches for a advantage that game or next time they met the team. They would laugh the media wouldn't even care.
This would be like the 4th article down from Peyton lands new commercial, LT show's class, Cameroon blows Dolphins draft you get the idea.
Anyhow Because we are successful and only because we are successful is teams we beat and some cases trumped are exacting their revenge, can't beat BB on the field attack credibility.
Maybe Tom wasn't so good maybe the defense isn't as smart or isn't as well coached?
We're not the Bengals here people were not drafting guys right out of gangs or fresh from prison.
There is a reason BB needs smart smart players for his defense no JR College players here.
They need to study, break down opponents, know assignments and react fast and correct in the right situation.
We don't need a linebacker to run a 4.3 because he could be the fastest man in the world but if he's out of position he hurts the other 10 team mates on the field during play.
If we just recorded and cheated all the time why would we need to give Tom Brady a huge contract?
Hell I guess we could win the Superbowls we won with Joey Harrington or Drew Bledsoe.
One thing though we didn't we needed players to make plays players who prepare and football is important to them. We hear Scott use this quote all the time, football is important to them.
We don't say guys who have no morals and don't mind cheating, hell this is a outrage not just on BB but any man that strapped up with the flying elvis during BB's tenure.
It makes me sick that people are destroying what Kraft and BB worked so hard to build. I don't even care about the draft picks, I want the respect back the respect our guys rightfully earned.
For making Manning look like a rookie in all those past playoff games, by silencing a black and gold community in Pittsburgh twice.
The respect we earned when we took waiver wire guys who had heart and desire and shocked the Rams and the world at the same time.
For people saying oh they lost this guy and this guy only to prove them wrong.
For Tom to be stripped of his receivers to be replaced with Jags and to be 1 down away from the superbowl, if it wasn't for a few horrible calls that game.
No one talks about how the Colts got breaks last year and the year they lost to pittsburgh the Pomalulu interception was the worst call I ever seen in my life as a football fan.
Anything to have Mr commercial hoist the Lombardi cause that's what the NFL wanted.
When the referees couldn't hide their terrible towels as they called the most ridiculous calls in the Superbowl against Seattle.
Just to let Pittsburgh get away with holding practically the whole game.
They couldn't scheme against our physical defense so the NFL changed the rules to favor the offense.
We stack up our offense this year with our defense still being a force and they try to crucify the man that made so many careers, gave so many coaches a chance and brought a Superbowl to a team that was a joke and afterthought before 2001, well it ends here.
If your disrespecting and second guessing BB your disrespecting football.
They stripped the man of his assistants they poached his players and assistant coaching staff they tried to take Pioli.
The rest of the league must think BB will crack under pressure and falter or waver all this will do Is make BB show no mercy when he plays the team that opens their mouths.
As a unconditional Patriots fan If BB ever does leave I will immediately make whatever team is lucky to get him as my second team and right now I can honestly say I've never had a second team.
The crucifying must stop GO PATS!

 

[upstater1]

Since, "you think you know" what the Dolphins used during last seasons game, why is it the Commish determined the Dolphins did nothing wrong? Obviously if "YOU" know what Miami used, then the Commish knew. Obviously whatever Miami used wasn't against the rules or they would have been punished for it and they weren't. I guess next you'll say the Commish just likes Miami more?

I didn't say I think I know what they used. I said the article quoted Thomas as saying they purchased iso-tapes. The article went on to explain these are not official NFL tapes.

The rest of your argument is actually the one I started making. The NFL doesn't think cheating is improper. Making a videotape isn't, but obviously cheating isn't.

 

[feelthepain]

I didn't say I think I know what they used. I said the article quoted Thomas as saying they purchased iso-tapes. The article went on to explain these are not official NFL tapes.

The rest of your argument is actually the one I started making. The NFL doesn't think cheating is improper. Making a videotape isn't, but obviously cheating isn't.

Obviously they don't offer enough of an advantage to be a violation. At some point you'll have to deal with the fact that the Pats had a decided advantage and thats why they are in this position.

 

[LoveDemPats]

I think a real commissioner could just say, The Patriots violated the spirit of the law, and therefore this is their punishment. I would accept a one game suspension and a draft pick loss at this point. But the commissioner should also say that the NFL has been remiss in delineating the rules more clearly, which opened them to interpretation. He should then leak word to every NFL team to clam up or else.

Personally, I don't think Gooddell has a handle on any of this. You know why? Because you have Jeff Fischer, a member of the competition committee, making comments. That tells me that the commissioner has lost complete control. This is about the NFL's image, and key players are now way off the reservation.

Gooddell doesn't want the lawyers and security on the sidelines of every game, but the only way to do that is to appease the Patriots in part, by punishing them with something acceptable (I do believe at this point the Patriots would accept something like a 3rd round draft pick loss and a 1 game BB suspension), while also telling the rest of the teams they better start thinking of the good of the NFL. That comment should be pointed at Mangini.

Yes, and it will be hard to reign in any of these huge egos since they have been allowed such a long leash for a good amount of time. You know, I have a feeling that this might just be the natural progression of the NFL. It is not good, but that is just what the times and the players involved will gravitate toward. To be specific, the lawyers, security henchmen, and yellow journalists hell bent on grabbing a big piece of this lucrative pie.

It bums me out on many levels. I really do love football.

 

[LoveDemPats]

I also think the angle of the Pats being able "to make their case" is a calculated move to allow for the NFL to exercise some leniency. It's not like the NFL will listen and make the punishment worse.

This has been said a bunch of times, but I think that the case has already been made by the pats and they are simply waiting for the verdict. In other words, there is no Friday call or meeting planned for Bill and Goodall. It has already taken place.

 

[LoveDemPats]

How is it justified before you know the punishment ?

How about if the punishment is hanging ? Is that justrified ?

:bricks:

I think that I heard somewhere that hanging is in fact justified. I think that it was Strahan, or maybe it was El, I am not sure. It was someone in the know who is really now, right now.

 

[upstater1]

Obviously they don't offer enough of an advantage to be a violation. At some point you'll have to deal with the fact that the Pats had a decided advantage and thats why they are in this position.

Weak, very weak. You've shown your true colors here. The Dolphins absolutely sucked last year, and still suck this year. No way in hell they beat the Patriots without cheating.

 

[LoveDemPats]

If only, and not in the way I'd hope. He'd have to do that at the expense of exposing the extent and depth of his own dirtbaggery. He isn't going to do that - well, certainly not publicly. You really think he's going to risk revealing that your SB rings may be made of brass? Think again.

funny stuff.

So, do you think that if the pats played the jets every week from now until january that the jets would win one game? Just one? You think? Sorry, you are just bitter about your team. For good reason I might add. Mangini is in some trouble. He is not the savior that you thought. But, go ahead and attack if it makes you feel better. Your jets will lose again in NE and you know it. And, it is because they are not as good.

 

[LoveDemPats]

Since, "you think you know" what the Dolphins used during last seasons game, why is it the Commish determined the Dolphins did nothing wrong? Obviously if "YOU" know what Miami used, then the Commish knew. Obviously whatever Miami used wasn't against the rules or they would have been punished for it and they weren't. I guess next you'll say the Commish just likes Miami more?

You just proved his point.

 

[Pats726]

Obviously they don't offer enough of an advantage to be a violation. At some point you'll have to deal with the fact that the Pats had a decided advantage and thats why they are in this position.

There is cheating allowed in the NFL...some of it IS allowed..other actions TO DO the same thing are not..so really the NFL regulates what cheating is OK and what isn't..

 

[feelthepain]

Weak, very weak. You've shown your true colors here. The Dolphins absolutely sucked last year, and still suck this year. No way in hell they beat the Patriots without cheating.

Wow, you're pitiful, god help you when the Pats fall off the pedestal you've placed them on.