NFLN: Brady/Manning Debate

[Deus Irae]

Once someone goes in the bag for someone, they'll often make all sorts of excuses to justify staying there. We see that on this site, and it's easy to see on other sites, too. So, it's not surprising that reporters, who've been Manning Ballwashers for over a decade, continue to act as if Manning's the Lord's second son.

To me, that's part of the fun of being a Brady fan. Knowing how grudgingly a lot of the media are giving Brady his due makes it just a little bit sweeter.

 

[Sivy]

It's crazy how much you got owned in this argument. lol

 

[BradyFTW!]

Did Baldinger just say that nobody's ever made as many consecutive starts as Manning has in that clip? Because that's just factually untrue... then again, most of his argument is.

 

[Jetssuck]

Any minute Brian Baldinger or Marshall Faulk is going to tell us the main reason Manning is better than Brady is that Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. An 8-foot-tall Wookiee living on the planet Endor with two-foot-tall Ewoks makes no sense.

 

[townes]

Unless Cassel goes on to do something impressive in the postseason, the answer is probably yes.

MPAI

Really? remind me, what did Cassell do in the postseason for NE?



The only people who maintain these insipid positions are the haters, period. Cassell's play has absolutely nothing to do with Brady's career and "points" like these are only made to use lame-assed crap to try and demean Brady. Anyone who buys it is a moron, period.

 

[Deus Irae]

Really? remind me, what did Cassell do in the postseason for NE?

Nothing, but that's meaningless. The argument is that Cassell got them 11 wins, not that he led the Patriots to postseason glory. Cassell needs to show that he's a talent in order to undercut the "any QB" argument.

The only people who maintain these insipid positions are the haters, period. Cassell's play has absolutely nothing to do with Brady's career and "points" like these are only made to use lame-assed crap to try and demean Brady. Anyone who buys it is a moron, period.

There's no doubt in my mind that Brady is better than Manning. There's also no doubt in my mind that the Colts are more dependent on Manning than the Patriots are on Brady. While I don't think one has anything to do with the other, it's not surprising that others conflate the two.

 

[ScottieC]

Nothing, but that's meaningless. The argument is that Cassell got them 11 wins, not that he led the Patriots to postseason glory. Cassell needs to show that he's a talent in order to undercut the "any QB" argument.



There's no doubt in my mind that Brady is better than Manning. There's also no doubt in my mind that the Colts are more dependent on Manning than the Patriots are on Brady. While I don't think one has anything to do with the other, it's not surprising that others conflate the two.

My issue is that while Cassell got them 11 wins, he did it with the same team (for the most part) that Brady got 16 wins with the prior season, so that's a 5 game drop off with Cassell - That's a significant drop from Brady to Cassell.

Additionally, If you remember that schedule was very easy, we lost the games we should have lost and then had a struggle beating the teams we should have killed with Brady. I.e. The Chiefs, Rams, 49'ers and of course we made Seneca Wallace look like a HOF'er in that crap game.

So, that Cassell argument is about as flimsy as they get when you actually look at the facts - But no one in the Mainstream Media is willing to do that amount of factual reporting. They just like the, Look what they did without Brady!!!

Bill is worth a certain amount of Wins per season, whatever amount you want to give to him, he's good for it. That season with that schedule, he was worth 11 in my opinion - You needed Brady to win the ones against really quality opponents.

 

[Deus Irae]

My issue is that while Cassell got them 11 wins, he did it with the same team (for the most part) that Brady got 16 wins with the prior season, so that's a 5 game drop off with Cassell - That's a significant drop from Brady to Cassell.

Additionally, If you remember that schedule was very easy, we lost the games we should have lost and then had a struggle beating the teams we should have killed with Brady. I.e. The Chiefs, Rams, 49'ers and of course we made Seneca Wallace look like a HOF'er in that crap game.

So, that Cassell argument is about as flimsy as they get when you actually look at the facts - But no one in the Mainstream Media is willing to do that amount of factual reporting. They just like the, Look what they did without Brady!!!

Bill is worth a certain amount of Wins per season, whatever amount you want to give to him, he's good for it. That season with that schedule, he was worth 11 in my opinion - You needed Brady to win the ones against really quality opponents.

The Cassell argument is only flimsy if Cassell shows he's a quality QB. If not (and many still argue that he's not, which is why I mentioned playoff success), then the argument is at least defensible, whether you and I agree with it or not.

 

[jetophile]

Brady/Manning Debate? Manning in a landslide because you can only stretch Brady gay jokes so far. There are far more inventive insults and derogatory names to come up with in sheer numbers alone for Jughaid. And his father's name is Archie, thanks. Think about it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Just a couple of notes about the Cassel year, keeping in mind that the Pats were at their absolute peak on offense, in terms of weapons. With that running game and the schedule they had, I imagine with Brady they would have scored close to 550 points. Anyway, one way to measure it is how they did against tough opponents that they seem to play every year. See their point totals against those teams over the last five games, and the Cassel year is in bold.

Colts
34
24
15
34
31

Chargers
24
38
21
10
23

Steelers
41
23
34
10
39

This is what makes Brady so great. Against these great teams that typically roll average teams, the Pats still stand tall. In case you are wondering, here are the stats for those games

Vs Steelers, Colts, Chargers with Brady over 12 games: 30.5 PPG
Vs Steelers, Colts, Chargers with Cassel over 3 games: 11.7 PPG

Yes, small sample pool, but very telling. Against strong teams that also have good offenses, you'll often have to be in "keep up with them" mode, and that is where a QB can either become great or fail miserably. Cassel was fine when the defense dominated or the offense scored quickly, but the results were ugly when the team relied on him to match a guy like Rivers or Manning and be forced to throw the ball.

 

[Keyser Söze]

My issue is that while Cassell got them 11 wins, he did it with the same team (for the most part) that Brady got 16 wins with the prior season, so that's a 5 game drop off with Cassell - That's a significant drop from Brady to Cassell.

Additionally, If you remember that schedule was very easy, we lost the games we should have lost and then had a struggle beating the teams we should have killed with Brady. I.e. The Chiefs, Rams, 49'ers and of course we made Seneca Wallace look like a HOF'er in that crap game.

So, that Cassell argument is about as flimsy as they get when you actually look at the facts - But no one in the Mainstream Media is willing to do that amount of factual reporting. They just like the, Look what they did without Brady!!!

Bill is worth a certain amount of Wins per season, whatever amount you want to give to him, he's good for it. That season with that schedule, he was worth 11 in my opinion - You needed Brady to win the ones against really quality opponents.

Remember Cassell against Pitt

 

[townes]

The Cassell argument is only flimsy if Cassell shows he's a quality QB. If not (and many still argue that he's not, which is why I mentioned playoff success), then the argument is at least defensible, whether you and I agree with it or not.

Cassell got the Chef's to the play-off's and won 11 games with the Patriots, he's a good QB. He's not great but he could start for a good number of teams. Off the top of my head:

Cleveland

Cincy (minus Palmer)

Tennessee

Jacksonville (?)

Oakland

Denver

Washington

Minnesota

Carolina

S.F.

Seattle



Like I said, he's not a great QB but any QB who could start for this many teams is certainly a good QB.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Like I said, he's not a great QB but any QB who could start for this many teams is certainly a good QB.

Like I said, whether you and I would agree with it or not.

 

[townes]

Like I said, whether you and I would agree with it or not.

Well, people can always say whatever they want but there's a difference between an argument that can be supported and pure crap, and anyone claiming Cassell isn't a good QB would have to get around the fact that he started for a play-off team that went nowhere before he came in and could easily start for more than a 3rd of the teams in pro football.


There is nothing that can ever be done about the Brady haters, they are delusional and beyond reason so giving their position any credence is senseless as they are not making realistic arguments but rather are throwing massive amounts of sh.t at the wall hoping some will stick.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, people can always say whatever they want but there's a difference between an argument that can be supported and pure crap, and anyone claiming Cassell isn't a good QB would have to get around the fact that he started for a play-off team that went nowhere before he came in and could easily start for more than a 3rd of the teams in pro football.


There is nothing that can ever be done about the Brady haters, they are delusional and beyond reason so giving their position any credence is senseless as they are not making realistic arguments but rather are throwing massive amounts of sh.t at the wall hoping some will stick.

Well, given that there is a fair amount of Chiefs fans in the group that would say Cassell's not a good QB, I'll have to disagree with your take here. It's not about throwing things at walls, or at least it's not for all of them. It's about a genuine belief that Cassell was a product of the system and isn't a good QB.

 

[townes]

Well, given that there is a fair amount of Chiefs fans in the group that would say Cassell's not a good QB, I'll have to disagree with your take here. It's not about throwing things at walls, or at least it's not for all of them. It's about a genuine belief that Cassell was a product of the system and isn't a good QB.

I guess he took the system with him then because he led the Chef's to the play-off's, and that's a place they haven't been in quite a while.



BTW, there were actually Patriot fans who said they should keep Cassell and trade Brady, and the simple fact they exist doesn't mean they have any credibility. Christ there are people here who wanted to trade Welker for a 2nd rounder and that's a as senseless as it gets.

 

[Deus Irae]

I guess he took the system with him then because he led the Chef's to the play-off's, and that's a place they haven't been in quite a while.



BTW, there were actually Patriot fans who said they should keep Cassell and trade Brady, and the simple fact they exist doesn't mean they have any credibility. Christ there are people here who wanted to trade Welker for a 2nd rounder and that's a as senseless as it gets.

You seem to be arguing with me about a player we agree on. I'm not in agreement with the "Cassel's not good" camp. I just noted that he's got to do something in the playoffs to get the argument out of the Colts fans' arsenals.

As for the "Keep Cassel" crew, I know. We have a megathread here that's all about it. Much amusement was involved.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Tracy Porter

 

[townes]

You seem to be arguing with me about a player we agree on. I'm not in agreement with the "Cassel's not good" camp. I just noted that he's got to do something in the playoffs to get the argument out of the Colts fans' arsenals.

As for the "Keep Cassel" crew, I know. We have a megathread here that's all about it. Much amusement was involved.

I realize we agree on this for the most part, what i'm saying is that those making the other argument need some credibility to their argument, and right now don't have it. What cassell does in the play-offs is irrelevant imo, and Colts fans are the last ones who should go down that road.

 

[Deus Irae]

I realize we agree on this for the most part, what i'm saying is that those making the other argument need some credibility to their argument, and right now don't have it. What cassell does in the play-offs is irrelevant imo, and Colts fans are the last ones who should go down that road.

The Manning situation really helps their argument. Why do so many have lesser opinions of Manning and Marino? Playoffs.

Take a look at Cassel's record against top teams, combine it with his one playoff game, and those people can base their argument in reason. I don't agree with them, but they can make fair points.