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NFLN: Brady/Manning Debate

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  1. TealSox

    TealSox Guest

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    NFL Videos: Manning vs. Brady

    Derrick Mason, from a radio interview on 105.7 The Fan, strongly believes that Peyton Manning is more valuable to his team than Brady is the New England Patriots.

    Will 2008 always hang over Tom Brady's career as a testament of his value to the New England Patriots, who went 11-5?
  2. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    That season is a testament to Matt Cassel's ability as a QB, and the strength of the New England Patroits' franchise from the owner to the equipment manager's intern.

    Maybe Peyton is more valuable to the Colts than Brady is to the Patriots, but that doesn't make Peyton a better player than Brady. I've got homer-goggles on whenever anyone talks about this debate so I can't take part in an objective conversation about this, but I strongly believe that this is a weak and irrelevant conjecture to the argument.
  3. sbpatfan

    sbpatfan Banned

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    It's probably true, but that's not Brady's fault. It more has to do with how good Belichick is. Or how bad Dungy / Caldwell are. However you want to see it. We look down on 11-5, do you know what that means for some teams?
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
  4. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And to the fact that the Colts have had $#@@#$^ at backup QB for a very long time.
  5. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    1) Value to the Patriots and Brady's QB skill are 2 different things.

    2) Does Joe Montana suddenly stink because Steve Young came in and had success on the same team? Maybe they're both very good QBs and that's why we went 11-5 with Cassell. Also, when judging Cassell since he left it's important to note that in his first season with the Chiefs they installed a new OC and playbook a few weeks before the season started, a magnificent way to screw over your QB. Last year he seemed like he was finally hitting his stride, even with a psychotic coach, but he'll have a new OC yet again this year since Weiss left.

    Circumstance will result in Cassell not getting his due, which in turn means TFB won't get his.
  6. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    Unless Cassel goes on to do something impressive in the postseason, the answer is probably yes.

    MPAI
  7. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    Being more valuable to a team isn't an indicator of being the better player.
  8. HomerSchooled

    HomerSchooled Rookie

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    People act like the Patriots didn't lose a step from 2007 when losing Brady in 2008. In what world is 7 fewer wins (5 regular season, 2 post season), 29 fewer td passes, 3 more interceptions, and a passer rating almost 30 points lower not a steep decline? To say with any conviction that Manning's back ups would have any worse a drop off has no basis in reality. Jim Sorgi, Manning's most prominent back-up, always played well in spot duty, and to this day even has way a higher career passer rating than Cassel.

    Just because the Patriots (and Brady too, it should be noted) care enough to cultivate a back-up doesn't make Brady any less of a QB. It's just the Patriot way. Cassel has since proven himself a pro bowl QB in KC, and this year played significantly better there than he ever did here. If our system can succeed with anyone, than why would he improve when liberated from it?

    Haters gonna hate. It is what it is.
  9. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    There're so many ways you can cut this argument. An 11-5 record and missing the playoffs means nothing. You can find better 9-7 teams than that 11-5 team. A year later the Patriots had a tougher schedule and a worse record WITH Brady. So what?

    Beyond that, someone could make the argument that Brady is worth more to the Patriots. Without Brady the Patriots don't win 3 Super Bowls. Noe THAT is value.

    Do the Patriots win 3 Super Bowls without Brady?
  10. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    I've had this discussion with a bunch of idiots i don't know how many times.
    They keep comparing the 08 Patriots vs the 09 Patriots as a basis for their argument for some reason.

    I keep saying that you should be comparing to the 07 Patriots because the roster is pretty similar to 08. 09 was a team that lost many of it's leaders and the fact that Brady was coming back from a season ending injury.

    People love to hate winners.
  11. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    the pats have BB who will do everything in he's power to put players in the right situation were they can secede even with out Brady the pats will still have a shot at the playoffs because of BB, the colts dont have tony dungy any more so after Peyton Manning the biggest leader in that franchise is Bill Polian so with out Manning that team gets 5 wins at best.
  12. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Put Brady on the Colts for his entire career and let's see his numbers in a dome with Dallas Clark,Harrison,Wayne,Collie,James and etc. He might not have 4 superbowl trips but he will have 1 or 2 MVP's more,and extra pro bowl appearences. The Colts invest heavily into their O and make sure that Manning is always in the best position to succeed.

    And i ******* hate the double standard with Manning. When the Colts win in the regular season it's all about Manning but when they lose in the playoffs it's just that their team just isn't quite good enough,don't blame Manning. This so called best QB eva loses more playoff games than he wins. Nuff said.

    EDIT: And the fact that the NFL even is having a discussion whether Brady or Manning should be no. 1 in a list of top 100 of 2011 is ******* BS. Manning wasn't even a top 5 QB last season. He lost quite a few games for his team because of bad decision making,not injuries.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  13. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In regards to D.Mason comparing Manning to Brady etc---that argument is irrelevant in my opinion.

    The same could easily be said for guys like Drew Brees, Rivers, etc...it doesn't matter in the least, and shows Mason's ignorance in being able to determine what is relevant in a debate, and what is NOT relevant in a debate.

    He should have left it at SB wins/postseason performances, overall wins, MVP's, stats, the WR's that they both had/have to work with, mechanics etc.

    It's more than obvious that Manning is a great QB, but Brady is more consistent, and just an overall better QB in my eyes.

    He deserves the "#1" ranking from this stupid little NFL Network thing. Manning is either a 2 or a 3.
  14. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    give Manning the pats defense from 2001 through 2005 and he may have 3 rings as will... they are both amazing QB's that would still be hall of fame QB's in any system
  15. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    As of this immediate past season there is literally no debate.

    Who was the first and only unanimous MOST VALUABLE PLAYER in the league?

    Hint: It wasn't Peyton Manning.

    Aside from that I've got no problem if someone wants to assert that the Patriots ability to play together as a team is better than that of the Jets.

    Position by position, outside of QB, the Colts might be more talented - but as far as a coach's ability to get players to play together to be more than the sum of their totals, Belichick and the Patriots clearly are better than the Colts - and the year without Brady proved that.

    So I can live with the fact that Brady is the better QB and the Patriots play better together as a team overall.
  16. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    If you look at Cassel's numbers in both 2008 and 2010 there's a common theme. He got to play the NFC and AFC West and got most of his numbers vs those teams. If you look at what he did against good defenses in both seasons, and 2009 for that matter, you see he's never lit up a good defense. Now even Brady and Manning struggle against good defense at times but they also light them up from time to time. Cassel is going to face a much tougher schedule this year and even though his supporting cast will be better his numbers won't be. In games where he doesn't have good run support or his team falls behind and he has to pass he's simply not able to carry the load.

    11-5 was a scheduling illusion and people forget that's five less wins, something like 1300 less yards and not even half the TDs with an offensive cast that was pretty elite. They play divisions other than the west that year and they probably go 8-8.
  17. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    No. It is fodder for message board foolishness but in time it won't be remembered.

    Do you often hear about the 1991 49ers and how it is a blackmark against both Joe Montana and Steve Young that when they were out with injuries Steve Bono led them to 5 wins in his 6 starts and an overall 10-6 record?
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  18. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    FWIW, an interesting fact, when you look at passer rating:

    Outdoors: Brady > Manning
    Indoors: Brady > Manning

    The only reason that Manning's QB rating was higher (right now Brady's is) is that he plays so many more games indoors, and almost everyone's QB rating indoors is higher than it is outdoors. [e.g., you can get a higher average if you have lots of 110s and fewer 80s than if you have a few 120s and lots of 90s.]
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  19. Jetssuck

    Jetssuck Rookie

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    The Colts are not just Peyton Manning and they never have been. Manning, unlike Brady, has had skilled first round draft picks to play with his whole career and it shows when he's lost them. He fell of the face of the earth after Dallas Clark was lost last season. He did even worse in 2001 when Edgerrin James went down. The Colts maybe 3-13 or 6-10 without Manning, but so what, they were 3-13 at one time and 6-10 at another time with Manning.

    If Brady is not that good because the Patriots went 11-5 without him, what say those about the almost universally proclaimed greatest basketball player of all-time, Michael Jordan? The Bulls with Michael Jordan in 1992-1993 went 57-25. In 1993-1994 without Michael Jordan they went 55-27. Following the same logic as the Brady-Manning debate, the Jazz without Karl Malone would never had been as successful as the Bulls without Jordan, so Karl Malone is better than Michael Jordan.
  20. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    You're only looking at losses. Yes I agree the Colts have more losses without Manning. But you also have to look at wins. The Patriots have fewer playoff wins and Super Bowls without Brady.

    The measure of the QB is only half-complete if you're looking at how much worse off his team would be without him.

    You also have to look at how much success the team has had BECAUSE of him.

    That's the flip side of the coin.

    Anyone who focuses on the potential losses the Colts would suffer needs to also take into account the big WINS Brady brought to his team, and it's because of those wins that Brady surpasses Manning in value to his team.
  21. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I am not buying that in the least.

    Manning choked away games in the early part of the decade in the playoffs. Brady was setting NFL records in the Super Bowl. It was like a night and day performance between the two.
  22. Froob

    Froob Rookie

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    I don't think that last part is true. Excluding last year, I think sorgi could of gotten them 8-10 wins. Not title contenders but, those teams had a lot of talent. Dallas Clark,Reggie Wayne,Marvin Harrison,edgerin James, and Dwight freeney aren't exactly scrubs.
  23. jbb9s

    jbb9s Rookie

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    I think Brady could put this debate to bed if he could perform again in the post season similar to his first 10 starts. Giants, Ravens and Jets have stung, especially since Pats were favored in all 3 and home for 2 and neutral for 1. Not that he played "poorly" but only OK really. The losses were not his fault btw.

    Also, the 07 and 10 seasons for Brady are the two best ever by a QB, based on TD/INT. And by a long shot. Like we're talking the 9/1 td/int is almost twice as good as any other player in history (himself in 07 excluded).

    Also, the dome versus winter/outdoor stadium can not be understated and basically makes any career comparison moot. Although Brady holds his own nonetheless.

    I see Brady with 6-8 more playoff wins in him and Manning with 3-5 based on their ages and the strength of their current teams. If Brady retires at about 20-7, 4+ rings and Manning at 14-14, 1 or 2 rings, this debate will be moot.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  24. townes

    townes Rookie

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    A) 9-10 play-offs 1-1 SB 1 ring

    B) 14-5 play-offs 3-1 SB 3 rings





    End of discussion.
  25. Sivy

    Sivy Rookie

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    Did anyone watch it? I was loving how dukes was sticking up for Brady. Saying how manning had all kinds of 1st rounders and kept calling out names when they tried to argue..." clark, harrison, faulk...." and then he said something about brady making chicken salad out of chicken soup or something like that.
  26. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

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    #3 Jersey

    THANK you. :rolleyes:

    And any objective comparison between Brady and Manning can only serve to embarrass Manning.

    And I'm "speaking" as probably the only Yankee in all of New England who likes Manning.
  27. strngplyr

    strngplyr Rookie

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    This debate is stupid.

    "But NE went 11-5 without Brady!"
    New England won 16 regular season games in 2007. When Brady went down we saw a FIVE game decline and missed the playoffs.

    Our Backup QB happened to be competent and spent a few seasons learning the offense behind one of the greatest Quarterbacks ever. He had a very good receiving corps and defense to help him out.

    New England led by Tom Brady has THREE 14-2 seasons, one 16-0 season, and THREE Superbowl Championships while appearing in four.

    64-6 and 2-1 in the Superbowl through those four seasons. What has Manning led the Colts to that come close?

    The only thing Peyton Manning has over Tom Brady in this argument is regular season passing numbers supported by one of the most consistent wide receiving corps in the league over the last decade. How many teams get lucky with Marvin Harrison's and Reggie Wayne's like that? Dallas Clark isn't too bad either, ya know?

    TB is playing this team sport called football. Manning plays catch to pad his stats.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  28. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    Can someone list the decent teams Matt Cassel helped the Patriots beat in 2008?

    Does a gimmicky Miami team (on the 2nd try) count?

    Let me make something clear, I really, really like Matt Cassel. What he did for the team in 2008 was nothing short of miraculous, at times. He got better and better every week, made very few critical mistakes, and kept us in games that could have gotten out of hand quickly.

    He also suffered some incredibly boneheaded mistakes by his teammates in a few games vs. good teams: Gaffney's drop and Thomas' shove vs. the Colts, Randy's drops and Slater's muff vs. the Steelers, the defense allowing the Jets to convert 3rd and 15).

    And it was disappointing that he didn't get a chance to show his mettle in the playoffs that year, because I don't think anyone wanted to play the Patriots in the postseason.

    But all of that being said, the schedule was what it was. I think we can all agree that Brady would have won all 11 of those games, and likely a few more (Steelers, Jets, Colts very likely, Chargers maybe). Even some of the very bad teams gave the Pats a run for their money that they likely wouldn't have with Brady (Rams by 6? Seahawks by 3? ech).
  29. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    I happen to think Manning is a super QB and a super player but given 1 drive to win a Superbowl in the playoffs I will always take Tom Brady. Always.
  30. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    i think your missing my point its not that Manning is better then Brady but that the pats are better then the colts... BB had a defense full of JAG's rookies and 2th year players and lots of injury yet they still lead the NFL in takwaways and i think give up the fewest points in the second half of the season, the pats are just better at replaceing players then any team in the NFL
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