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NFL Appeal oral arguments thread


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Here is the big problem for Brady, I think, and this has worried me since before it went to Berman. Player contracts (http://ipmall.info/hosted_resources/SportsEntLaw_Institute/Agent Contracts Between Players & Their Agents/APPENDIX_A__player_contract_.pdf) contain the following language (emphasis is mine):



That's in the contracts so there is no way Brady can claim he's not on notice of this. If the NFL can convince the judges that ball deflation is "conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League", then the notice thing goes "poof".

The problem is that Berman already ruled that it wasn't notice for "conduct detrimental" since equipment violations have their own category. Furthermore, Berman pointed out that the league had not suspended anyone for "conduct detrimental" for equipment violations despite there being numerous instances..
 
Michael McCann on OM&F: ‘I was awestruck’ by judge’s comment about ‘overwhelming evidence’ against Tom Brady

“The ‘overwhelming evidence’ comment by Judge Chin, I was awestruck. I had no idea where that was coming from,” McCann said. “Even if you take the Wells Report at its word, it doesn’t make that point. This is taking what was ‘more probably than not’ and transforming it into ‘beyond a reasonable doubt.’ I don’t understand the sequence of how that happened in his mind.”

The appeal hearing was expected to be an evaluation of Judge Richard Berman’s ruling on the case, not an analysis of the case itself. Expectations certainly did not match up with reality, as the judges focused almost exclusively on details from the Wells Report. One of the pieces of evidence they felt was particularly damning was the destruction of Brady’s cell phone.

“Brady turned over all of the phone records. He turned over his emails. And by phone records, according to [NFLPA attorney Jeffrey] Kessler, Brady went to the phone company, he got all of the phone numbers that Brady called and texted, and the NFL already had all of those texts from [John] Jastremski and [Jim] McNally and others,” McCann said. “So, it’s not as if there’s this pool of information that Brady was hiding. The Wells Report and the NFL already had it. It’s almost like the judges weren’t as familiar with the facts as others are.”

Added McCann: “It’s very bizarre. Kessler tried to use the phone as a way of showing that Brady was treated unfairly. Specifically, Brady is punished by [Roger] Goodell after the Wells Report comes out. Brady then goes to arbitration, he goes to the appeal, and Goodell goes against him. Well, during that appeal, this phone issue surfaced, and Kessler said, ‘Look, you can’t come up with some new ground to punish Tom Brady during the appeal,’ because if you do that there’s no second appeal, there’s no double appeal or anything like that. So it’s really unfair to Brady to bring up new reasons during an appeal. We don’t do that in law. Judge Parker basically said, ‘Well, arbitrators do what they want.’ I was really surprised and, frankly, disappointed by that kind of reasoning.”
 
The problem is that Berman already ruled that it wasn't notice for "conduct detrimental" since equipment violations have their own category. Furthermore, Berman pointed out that the league had not suspended anyone for "conduct detrimental" for equipment violations despite there being numerous instances..

can you send this to chin and parker...
 
The problem is that Berman already ruled that it wasn't notice for "conduct detrimental" since equipment violations have their own category. Furthermore, Berman pointed out that the league had not suspended anyone for "conduct detrimental" for equipment violations despite there being numerous instances..

Couldn't the 2d Circuit ignore the "notice" issue if it wanted, or at least determine that it is not legally relevant to the issue of Goodell's disciplinary power? Didn't the "notice" concept come from other NFL proceedings (i.e., the bountygate appeal)? I don't recall that the notice issue was based on well-established supreme court precedent or anything like that. So, I'm not sure if "notice" is the be-all and end-all in this case.
 
Based on chin's comments it will come down to Parker.
 
Couldn't the 2d Circuit ignore the "notice" issue if it wanted, or at least determine that it is not legally relevant to the issue of Goodell's disciplinary power? Didn't the "notice" concept come from other NFL proceedings (i.e., the bountygate appeal)? I don't recall that the notice issue was based on well-established supreme court precedent or anything like that. So, I'm not sure if "notice" is the be-all and end-all in this case.

They can't ignore it because it was one of the reason's Berman ruled against the nfl.
 
The problem is that Berman already ruled that it wasn't notice for "conduct detrimental" since equipment violations have their own category. Furthermore, Berman pointed out that the league had not suspended anyone for "conduct detrimental" for equipment violations despite there being numerous instances..
The key word in there is "reasonably", was the punishment reasonable, that's where some of the questions to Clement were getting at.
 
From what I can see in the 35 pages here, the one thing that stands out as clear is that the Brady/NFLPA team did him a disservice by having Kessler, the original attorney, act as the appeal attorney. We don't know why this happened as it is common practice not to do it, and Brady had a top quality appeal attorney on his team, apparently just for this purpose. Could the Brady/NFLPA legal team gotten a bit arrogant with its success thus far and made a stupid move?
 
Based on chin's comments it will come down to Parker.

if it comes down to parker, then we're doomed.
i thought chin was the potential swing vote but he's leaning towards the league.

i hate this ****...
 
Are those transcripts out yet?
 
You'd think it wouldn't take too long to transcribe about an hour of dialogue.

I doubt they have someone sitting, waiting, for the meeting to end so they can hop right on it.
 
Beyond fed up with this. Stopped caring a long time ago. Just wanna know if he is suspended or not. I don't care about the extra nonsense.
 
Polling the Experts: Who Will Win the Deflategate Appeal? is a round-up of people's opinions as to who will win (Stradley, McCann, others).

It's fairly split between NFL and Brady.

Most of the ones who favor the NFL make the same point I did -- if the court upholds only 1 or 2 of Berman's 3 reasons, they've still sustained Berman's decision.

They could also order Goodell to re-do the arbitration, but with better processes this time. That could be the time for the owners to pressure Goodell into the Kraft-like stance: "I continue to believe my side is right, but in the interest of peace I'm stopping with this process." In that case, we'd be left with the picks being gone and there being no suspensions.

Oh yeah -- as part of the dropping it deal, Brady would likely disappoint Ken and commit not to filing a defamation suit.
 
Here is the big problem for Brady, I think, and this has worried me since before it went to Berman. Player contracts (http://ipmall.info/hosted_resources/SportsEntLaw_Institute/Agent Contracts Between Players & Their Agents/APPENDIX_A__player_contract_.pdf) contain the following language (emphasis is mine):



That's in the contracts so there is no way Brady can claim he's not on notice of this. If the NFL can convince the judges that ball deflation is "conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League", then the notice thing goes "poof".
And that is the NFL's case. But if I signed a contract with a job that said I can be fired for any conduct detrimental to the company, and also said if I was up to 5 minutes late for work than I would be docked the day's pay then it is logically implied that being up to 5 minutes late for work is not conduct detrimental to the company or it would not have been listed separately. It would not make any sense to specify anything after the first clause unless it was an exception.

I believe that is exactly why the "law of the shop" exists. It's not some artifact of labor law invented by the courts. It's an extension of how to logically read a contract. That contract was negotiated by two parties with that in mind. If the NFLPA did think the first clause trumped every other clause they would not have bothered wasting the time negotiating fifty other penalties and punishments. Which is to say that under no circumstance could anyone reasonably say the NFLPA actually believed the conduct detrimental clause trumped the rest of the contract. Not only is it logically implied but it is backed by the courts through precedence.

To read out the rest of the contract that way now is to retroactively change the contract beyond how it was understood when it was agreed upon. How could the NFLPA know that their contract would be interpreted differently than all the other contracts that have been through the courts?

IMO, the problem isn't that the NFL can't have the power they want, it's just that they don't. If that's what they wanted then they should have stopped after the conduct detrimental policy. Of course, the reason they didn't is because the NFLPA would not agree to a contract like that, which tells us everything we need to know about the meaning of the words that followed in policy. The words that followed were necessary to reduce that unlimited power to get an agreement with the NFLPA.

Words necessary to an agreement cannot be irrelevant to an agreement.
 
Oh yeah -- as part of the dropping it deal, Brady would likely disappoint Ken and commit not to filing a defamation suit.

No chance he would drop the defamation suit. Basically I believe that suit is not just for him but for the whole Patriots nation. I think I'd be just as pissed if he dropped it as I am pissed with Kraft. No way he drops it in some deal. If the reason is there is no way of putting forward such a case then that is different.
 
No chance he would drop the defamation suit. Basically I believe that suit is not just for him but for the whole Patriots nation. I think I'd be just as pissed if he dropped it as I am pissed with Kraft. No way he drops it in some deal. If the reason is there is no way of putting forward such a case then that is different.

Concur. The only way he drops a suit is if the NFL apologizes and returns the picks they blatantly stole from the organization.
 
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