NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

[OhExaulted1]

A filibuster is used if you are the minority party in a legislative body. If the Republicans retain control of the Senate, they decide whether a nominee is confirmed or rejected. My point was that if the Republicans control the Senate, even if Hillary or a Democrat is elected President, it will be tougher to get a liberal Supreme Court justice approved than one perceived to be a moderate....

Any who these type of comments dont belong here. Theres another forum for hypothetical political discussions.

My bad for getting sucked into one.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Eh, I don't know about that. They didn't do that to us last year. Plus that's bad for ratings and the Patriots are a big ticket item.

That's true. They had to know they were going to railroad Brady, so they certainly could have.

That said, I doubt the NFL would go that far, if only because it would be too obvious.

 

[Ring 6]

It was within the scope.

Steph Bradley said it was.

Someone asked her about the Chin quote about compelling evidence, and she said the judges will always look at the facts upon which an arbitrator's decision is made. They may not want to debate it or here the words Ideal Gas Law, but they have to consider these things.

This appeal is about the arbitration hearing. Whether they feel he was guilty or not is not part of this case.

 

[Ring 6]

Then why did one of the judges say that the evidence for deflation was convincing?

He actually said compelling, but I'm not sure how you expect me to read his mind.
Are you saying that because he made that comment, the law has changed?
Its very simple. The case is about whether Brady was given proper notice, and whether Pash and the Wells notes should have been made available to Brady.
That's it.

 

[Mack Herron]

This appeal is about the arbitration hearing. Whether they feel he was guilty or not is not part of this case.

Supposed to be. But nobody has yet explained the judges' focus on facts, which is puzzling.

 

[varjao]

Deflategate appeal full quotes: Three-judge panel comes with tough questions for Tom Brady's attorney

They are not buying in the cell phone thing, I just don't understand why the NFL and now the judges are making a big deal on the cell phone considering it was a personal item and the NFL doesn't have subpoena power.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I hear you dude. Have always wanted to be a lawyer but life didn't work out that way to this point. I believe I am the smartest person in the room currently but don't tell my wife that.

You're right otherwise though. It should really have been as simple as "science shows it didn't happen, the end." Unfortunately we have to involve judges to question whether an evidently partial arbitrator can discipline an employee for doing nothing wrong.



Yeah, it seems so unlikely but if you read everything through that lens it makes it all very scary. I just keep telling myself that there's no way 3 appellate judges declined to prepare themselves at all for this case and they're simply being jerks to both sides because they enjoy it.

Agree on your final sentence.

I'm waiting to read the transcript, but it seems that the Judges were wrestling with the extent of the authority that the CBA gives the Commissioner. Based on the reports, it seems that they were struggling to find a reason that could have justified his decision to reject Brady's appeal. Phone? Possibility of Brady's involvement in the alleged deflation, even if there wasn't "overwhelming" evidence thereof? Something else?

It seems to me that they were trying to see whether there was enough in the League's case to outweigh the three points on which Berman overturned Goodell's decision: Notice, Pash, adequate access to pertinent information.

If I didn't come at this case as a strongly biased Patriots and Brady fan, I'd focus on the fact that the Commissioner is the employee of the Owners and therefore "evidently partial" by definition to what the Owners perceive as their interest.

I'd then consider that the players gave an "evidently partial" Commissioner absurdly broad authority as part of a collective bargaining process (so absurd that Kessler wanted the players to strike rather than agree to it, but then we had the big ol' Jeff Saturday--Bob Kraft Bear Hug moment).

I'd then wonder why the hell any group of workers in their right mind would do something like that, but I would have to note that they had indeed done so.

It sounds to me like that's the dilemma with which the Judges were wrestling. So, in retrospect, there is nothing surprising in their questioning and it suggests that they cut right to the heart of the matter.

My gut is that Chin will ultimately join Katzmann in upholding Berman's decision, but he is clearly torn between his "roots" as a Labor advocate and the nonsense to which the Players agreed in the CBA.

 

[sb1]

Deflategate appeal full quotes: Three-judge panel comes with tough questions for Tom Brady's attorney

They are not buying in the cell phone thing, I just don't understand why the NFL and now the judges are making a big deal on the cell phone considering it was a personal item and the NFL doesn't have subpoena power.

The judges are wondering if it is obstruction. To them they are pondering the idea that this can be grounds for the conduct detrimental by itself without anything to do with footballs.

With that said... after reading what Hurley had to say about Clement presenting an NFL lie to the judges I am now confident that Brady will win this thing. Yesterday I was 50-50.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Supposed to be. But nobody has yet explained the judges' focus on facts, which is puzzling.

I don't have the answer, but see my attempt at understanding the line of questioning in my reply to Ross12, #591 a few posts above.

 

[IllegalContact]

question: are the participants of this kind of hearing under oath? is there perjury?

the other thing is that the NFL uses a different lawyer at every point in the process.......it would appear to me that if you can, you'd want to have someone proficient at filling the troika with ********.....something that may not be as effective with someone like Kessler who is better at destroying people with facts

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Deflategate appeal full quotes: Three-judge panel comes with tough questions for Tom Brady's attorney

They are not buying in the cell phone thing, I just don't understand why the NFL and now the judges are making a big deal on the cell phone considering it was a personal item and the NFL doesn't have subpoena power.

much appreciated.

Kessler's answers to Parker's questions are muddled and confusing. At one point, Katzmann actually tries to bail him out. Parker's questions are precise and pointed and it's as though Kessler didn't anticipate them to the extent that Parker finally observes to Kessler that "you were on notice going into the hearing" about them.

I want to see the whole transcript, but Kessler seems befuddled. does anybody have a link to the entire transcript. i don't want to rely on what somebody else has decided are the "key exchanges."

thanks again for posting.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Any who these type of comments dont belong here. Theres another forum for hypothetical political discussions.

My bad for getting sucked into one.

I thought about NOT posting it but my post was pretty benign compared to those pro and con re specific candidate) and my intent was to be more informative than political...
That being said, you can't really discuss Federal judges while ignoring that politics does play a role.
They are almost always nominated by a President who shares their political views ( and same party likely) unless there is some horsetrading ( we'll take two of this party if you accept 2 of this party to get them confirmed) and sometimes nominations are held up in the Senate for personal reasons...as a Senator wants a separate issue addressed....

 

[MagicMarker]

It seems to me the judges don't really agree with the "lack of notice" argument. that's the part that ended this. They didn't say anything else about a partial person doing the arbitration. If the NFL loses on that one, they will have to appoint a new arbitrator.

I'd be ok with that if it's a fair choice. I don't think the NFL can win in a fair hearing.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

That's true. They had to know they were going to railroad Brady, so they certainly could have.

That said, I doubt the NFL would go that far, if only because it would be too obvious.

It will be subtle"screwing" like a Monday night away game on the West coast ( think SF, Ariz or Den) followed by a tough home game ( e.g. Seattle) or facing teams coming off a bye week....multiple teams coming off bye weeks...

 

[sb1]

At least one of the judges (I think it was Parker) were troubled by the whole "judge, jury, executioner" thing that Goodell and the league have hung their hat on in this case. The league has used this as the basis of the whole thing and to be honest I think it was torpedoed yesterday.

I think that's another compelling reason to think Brady could win on the issue of the unbiased arbitrator. I'm sure they know Judge Berman's opinion on the matter.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Deflategate appeal full quotes: Three-judge panel comes with tough questions for Tom Brady's attorney

They are not buying in the cell phone thing, I just don't understand why the NFL and now the judges are making a big deal on the cell phone considering it was a personal item and the NFL doesn't have subpoena power.

I wonder if a stronger defense for Brady on the cell phone might have been," my wife sent me some very personal photos and very private discussions on there and I don't want anyone else to see them and I don't trust the NFL or anyone to not leak them."

 

[JMC00]

They didn't say anything else about a partial person doing the arbitration. If the NFL loses on that one, they will have to appoint a new arbitrator.

Except one judge that people say is supposedly against Brady said because goodell made himself judge, jury and enforcer stuff shouldn't be deferred back to him if he's the arbitrator

 

[AllstonPatsFan]

question: are the participants of this kind of hearing under oath? is there perjury?

the other thing is that the NFL uses a different lawyer at every point in the process.......it would appear to me that if you can, you'd want to have someone proficient at filling the troika with ********.....something that may not be as effective with someone like Kessler who is better at destroying people with facts

No there are no witnesses at an appeal hearing. The judges just review the record and briefs. The lawyers have a duty to the court but aren't testifying under oath.

My belief is even if the decision is overturned it will need to be remanded as Berman did not rule on multiple points of law. But in order to do that the appeals court has to rule that Berman was wrong on three points of law. All Brady needs is one to hold up.

 

[AQPE]

OK, so I gave up after 25 pages - too much else to do today d%#*!@t - but I want to weigh in on this. Reading what I've been able to find to this point, one thing that is striking to me is how little attention the judges seem to have paid to Berman's stated basis for his ruling (the 3'points identified by several posters on this thread). Maybe I missed what they focused on but that's my main impression. If I'm accurate in that impression then perhaps the judges are already settled in favor of the NFLPA/Brady side as a legal matter and used the hearing yesterday to ask about the genesis of the case based on their general intellectual curiosity rather than the legal issues they are tasked to address in their ruling.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I can GUARANTEE you one thing: If Brady ends up suspended, the league will ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE that our first 4 games will be (in no particular order):

@ Denver
vs. Seattle
@Pittsburgh
vs. Cincinati

If divisional opponents week is somewhere during those first 4 weeks of the season, you can bet your balls we'll be playing on the road against the Jets on that particular week.

They will do everything they can to make it has hard as possible for the Pats to get as few wins as possible with a backup QB during the first 4 games. Mark my words! They would love nothing more than maximizing that suspension in the form of Pats starting the season with an 0-4 record.

13-3