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New field turf: An injury nightmare just beginning???


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pats need to go back to the grass. it's not the same playing at gilette without it. did they change just for cost-cutting purposes?
 
Hard numbers bah.
All you have to do is watch with your own eyes and see how players land on turf verses grass. Also all the non-contact injuries on turf. And turf-toe; never heard of grass-toe.

Bah, that is a stupid answer, accidents happen, if it can be shown they happen much more frequently on the new turf then they will have to do something.

I had turf toe from playing on grass, so yes.

I figure that grass in perfect condition in the best surface, followed by field turf and grass in so-so condition, followed by grass in Houston type condition, then old fashioned astro turf.
 
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I noticed this last night and pulled up an old thread that talked about others complaining about the rise in injuries on turf: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/345709-gillette-stadium-turf-company-under-fire.html

If you watch one Hoomanawanui's catches, his ankle gets caught and he limped off the field. Also remember that the Saints lost Lynell Hamilton in a non-contact injury and I believe that was during a Gillette practice.

Ya add Lynell Hamliton to the Gillette list:
It looks like it was on a turf practice field and may not have been the Dura-spine crap but instead the Field Turf crap; I don't know if the turf practice field was upgraded to Duraspine:
New Orleans Saints running back Lynell Hamilton hurt at practice; Reggie Bush returns | NOLA.com
 
pats need to go back to the grass. it's not the same playing at gilette without it. did they change just for cost-cutting purposes?

They changed after losing to the Jets in that mudder in 2006. Brady complained about the grass a few times and stated a preference for the fake stuff.
 
The solution to this madness could start at the college level. If parents of football prospects picked schools that played on grass (so that their kids are less likely to get injured and more likely to get drafted) then there would be a mad rush by the top football mills to rip the crap up and put down safe natural grass surfaces. Unfortunately parents are not attuned to this and the turf companies are spreading a lot of disinformation.
 
Bah, that is a stupid answer, accidents happen, if it can be shown they happen much more frequently on the new turf then they will have to do something.

I had turf toe from playing on grass, so yes.

I figure that grass in perfect condition in the best surface, followed by field turf and grass in so-so condition, followed by grass in Houston type condition, then old fashioned astro turf.

Do you really think that the owners are going to sponsor a study that indicts them for being greedy and putting down turf and to hell with the players? To them football players are just gladiators doomed to die anyway so why not multi-task their stadiums for soccer and rock concerts? I can just hear the Krafts now saying that they would lose money if Gillette was only used for football. The Krafts have their three rings and the stadium is sold out forever--no need for more rings.

BB said that the team needed to get tougher, but no amount of toughness is going to allow your guys to play well with MCL tears, blown achilles, wrenched ankles, turf toes, rug burns, and MRSA. Last year the Patriots were the walking wounded by the playoffs, and it would appear as if they are headed down the same path. Noticed how much fresher the Ravens were after playing a season on grass?

How about the turf companies? They have sponsored some great studies, and I will never forget the long series the Sports Illustrated did (prompted by the turf companies) on Astro Turf extolling the health benefits of playing on it.
 
The Krafts put in the turf to make more money; apparently money is more important that the players and championships.


Actually, they put in the new turf at the request of the league because of how bad the turf was a couple years ago. On top of that, the players wanted it and so did the staff.

That being said, how many of you realize that the turf we are talking about is not plastic grass and just concrete underneath??? Some of the comments really come across as people not knowing the difference..
 
what we need is some of THIS installed....

This is a hybrid. This is a cross, ah, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia. The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus-belt that night on this stuff.

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pats need to go back to the grass. it's not the same playing at gilette without it. did they change just for cost-cutting purposes?
Remember how bad the surface was before it was changed? It was nearly unplayable, it was the worst in the NFL at the time. It was along the lines of that mud bowl when Miami played at Pittsburgh a couple years ago that the Steelers somehow managed to kick a field goal at the end of the game to win 3-0.


Yes, natural grass would be preferable. But for that to happen the soccer team will need to find a new home, and they'll probably also have to limit concerts. We as football fans may not care but the reality is that doing that has an effect on stadium revenues, which indirectly effects the budget for the Pats.
 
Remember how bad the surface was before it was changed? It was nearly unplayable, it was the worst in the NFL at the time. It was along the lines of that mud bowl when Miami played at Pittsburgh a couple years ago that the Steelers somehow managed to kick a field goal at the end of the game to win 3-0.


Yes, natural grass would be preferable. But for that to happen the soccer team will need to find a new home, and they'll probably also have to limit concerts. We as football fans may not care but the reality is that doing that has an effect on stadium revenues, which indirectly effects the budget for the Pats.

The grass field was effective until they fired their greens manager (I can guess why--he probably went ballistic when told about the rock concerts and soccer games) and multi-tasked the stadium. I wonder if they could lay down a wood parquet thingy on top of the grass for rock concerts. As far as soccer? Well I guess the Patriots are doomed to another season of debilitating injuries. They used to be able to use grass and other teams can do it (even Green Bay in the cold of Lambeau) so the Patriots could do it if they really care about winning. I think they care more about the money.
 
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The grass field was effective until they fired their greens manager (I can guess why--he probably went ballistic when told about the rock concerts and soccer games) and multi-tasked the stadium. I wonder if they could lay down a wood parquet thingy on top of the grass for rock concerts. As far as soccer? Well I guess the Patriots are doomed to another season of debilitating injuries. They used to be able to use grass and other teams can do it (even Green Bay in the cold of Lambeau) so the Patriots could do it if they really care about winning. I think they care more about the money.


Yes, the players, (Brady, Moss, etc) who wanted the turf instead of the grass only care about money.. DOH.. Guess you forgot about that.


BTW, the intent of this thread was to point out that the NEW turf doesn't seem to be as forgiving as the old Field Turf they replaced.
 
The grass field was effective until they fired their greens manager (I can guess why--he probably went ballistic when told about the rock concerts and soccer games) and multi-tasked the stadium. I wonder if they could lay down a wood parquet thingy on top of the grass for rock concerts. As far as soccer? Well I guess the Patriots are doomed to another season of debilitating injuries. They used to be able to use grass and other teams can do it (even Green Bay in the cold of Lambeau) so the Patriots could do it if they really care about winning. I think they care more about the money.

I think you're right and it's disgusting. Who cares about soccer? How many people even go to the stupid games? And they tear the field all up...great. There was a survey done and most players prefer grass #1.
 
Remember how bad the surface was before it was changed? It was nearly unplayable, it was the worst in the NFL at the time. It was along the lines of that mud bowl when Miami played at Pittsburgh a couple years ago that the Steelers somehow managed to kick a field goal at the end of the game to win 3-0.


Yes, natural grass would be preferable. But for that to happen the soccer team will need to find a new home, and they'll probably also have to limit concerts. We as football fans may not care but the reality is that doing that has an effect on stadium revenues, which indirectly effects the budget for the Pats.

They are working on that right now. But to say the grass football field is torn up because of soccer players is absurd. Being a Revs STH, when grass was the playing surface the grass was in perfect shape until September. The grass is and would be torn up by the NFL teams.
 
I think you're right and it's disgusting. Who cares about soccer? How many people even go to the stupid games? And they tear the field all up...great. There was a survey done and most players prefer grass #1.


No they do not tear up the field. The Gillette grass was always in perfect shape until September. So 300Lb lineman have nothing to do with the grass being torn up? But 190lb soccer players do? During the World Cup this summer one stadium hosted 12 games in 28 days and the field was in perfect shape for the final. BTW soccer players also prefer grass.
 
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Having played sport on artificial turf over here, to avoid injury we were all banned from using proper cleats, we used rubber cleats or just normal training shoes and there was 1 injury in 3 years on the turf.

So could that be an option, or would the weather effect it too much to not wear normal cleats?

Yes, you should use small cleats on artificial turf instead of long grass spikes, doing so results in much lower torque on leg tendons. The problem is, like players not feeling comfortable in the Revolution helmets or wearing leg pads, using short spikes results in inferior grip and cutting ability, so they play slower. If you're wearing small cleats and the guy across from you is wearing grass cleats, you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage until they cart your opponent off the field. I would suspect the NFL has equipment rules to maintain safety (high school football usually does, including cleat length) but I can't recall a penalty or fine given for an equipment infraction (aside from Clinton Portis' socks etc.)

I don't get what the big deal is about this artificial crap. Lower maintenance costs, right? More exciting games because the players have supposedly better footing in bad weather, right? God, people are so short-sighted sometimes.

That's some of it. Also, that the field IS maintainable under anything approaching normal use late into the season. Many teams with natural grass resort to resodding their field every game late in the season, the result being that they turn into soup during wet weather or simply detach from the loam.

Hard numbers bah.
All you have to do is watch with your own eyes and see how players land on turf verses grass. Also all the non-contact injuries on turf. And turf-toe; never heard of grass-toe.

Most prevalent on the old hard AstroTurf, but it happens on grass all the time, as its an injury that usually occurs when a player is being piled on when going down (skill position), or has weight put on his calf when on a knee (linemen). It's an issue of athletic shoes not having stiff enough soles. According to the NFLPA, players choose shoes based on comfort and lightness; toe flexion protection is not the leading criteria.

pats need to go back to the grass. it's not the same playing at gilette without it. did they change just for cost-cutting purposes?

Player performance, plus it was felt that the low quality turf was causing leg injuries. It was a season after the poor natural grass at Heinz Field was implicated in injuries to Rodney Harrison and Matt Light during the same game.

BB said that the team needed to get tougher, but no amount of toughness is going to allow your guys to play well with MCL tears, blown achilles, wrenched ankles, turf toes, rug burns, and MRSA. Last year the Patriots were the walking wounded by the playoffs, and it would appear as if they are headed down the same path. Noticed how much fresher the Ravens were after playing a season on grass?

The Ravens have played on artificial turf since 2003, after their natural surface crapped out. They were actually one of the first outdoor fields to make the switch, after Seattle.

The grass field was effective until they fired their greens manager (I can guess why--he probably went ballistic when told about the rock concerts and soccer games) and multi-tasked the stadium. I wonder if they could lay down a wood parquet thingy on top of the grass for rock concerts. As far as soccer? Well I guess the Patriots are doomed to another season of debilitating injuries. They used to be able to use grass and other teams can do it (even Green Bay in the cold of Lambeau) so the Patriots could do it if they really care about winning. I think they care more about the money.

Lambeau Field is used for literally NOTHING else apart from Packers football. They used to resod it every week late in the season and then heat and tarp it, giving it that distinctive brown color on game day. After it was ranked one of the worst playing surfaces in the NFL for a couple of NFLPA surveys the Packers went to a hybrid field in 2006, so it is no longer natural grass. But they still can't even play high school games on it.

I think you're right and it's disgusting. Who cares about soccer? How many people even go to the stupid games? And they tear the field all up...great. There was a survey done and most players prefer grass #1.

The full results from those surveys:

NFLPA said:
The five most common player responses from the 2006 survey were:
1. Make all fields grass to prevent injuries.
2. Keep all grass fields well maintained.
3. Do not allow baseball fields or multiple use fields.
4. Put artificial infilled surfaces in inclement weather cities.
5. Set standards for quality and texture of all fields based on safety, performance and comfort.

To date, the results of the playing surface survey have given the players an active voice, Gaines said.*Two of the top three worst playing fields from the 2006 survey--New England and Pittsburgh--have changed their fields or are currently making improvements.*
source: Artificial-Or-Natural-Players-Respond / News - NFLPlayers.com

Foxboro is an inclement weather city, and the 2008 survey notes that New England changed to FieldTurf, while Pittsburgh simply resodded, and again came in as one of the worst fields in the NFL. Infilled turf is popular because there isn't a good way to get a consistent natural grass surface throughout the season anywhere north of Washington. Denver alone doesn't seem to have big problems, probably because they get a lot of sunlight year round.

Personally I played on this stuff for years in high school and college and never witnessed an attributable injury to "caught" cleats. This was after hyperextending both my knees in middle school and high school playing on natural grass fields due to the grass tearing out from under me while my legs were under stress. Probably if I was older and no so elastic those would have been severe ligament tears.

However, I've never played at a level where the force exerted by players was up to NFL standards, so there is no doubt a special concern for skill players at that level. But it can be managed much better via equipment than the alternative.

Also, my understanding is that MRSA is usually a problem only on indoor fields, which must be frequently disinfected. Natural sunlight and weather works as a natural disinfectant on outdoor surfaces.
 
It seems the design criterion for turf may be the problem. Maybe they have
concentrated too much on making it durable.
It would seem a better design would be that is should give like natural grass
if a cleat is caught and even tear up as a result. But it should be easily repairable in case that happens.
Right now it seems the stuff is too strong.
 
Yes, the players, (Brady, Moss, etc) who wanted the turf instead of the grass only care about money.. DOH.. Guess you forgot about that.

I wonder how Brady feels about the turf after blowing out his knee on it? DOH. Or Moss limping around on two bad knees.
 
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