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New field turf: An injury nightmare just beginning???


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I wonder how Brady feels about the turf after blowing out his knee on it? DOH. Or Moss limping around on two bad knees.

Brady's knee would have been blown out regardless of the surface because off the impact on the joint itself.

As for Moss, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have two bad knees.. But if you care to provide actual prove of this, I'd be willing to listen.
 
I watched the game last night and I have to say that I was surprised at the new field turf and the people who got hurt last night. The major one being Donnie Avery. But Wheatley also hurt his leg in a very similar fashion as did Brandon Gibson.

When I re-watched the game and watched the legs of these players I saw something startling. It seemed to me that in each case the cleats on the foot of the leg that was injured caught and, in turn caused their leg to turn in an irregular fashion. I was quite surprised at this because the cleats catching like they did is supposed to be one of the things that doesn't happen with the new field turf.

I hope that this is not the case, but it seems too much of a coincidence that 3 players had their cleats catch in a similar fashion on the same type of turf...

I was thinking the same thing. It's not like Avery had 4 guys on his back. Quite a serious injury with only the field causing the torque and not a pile of players.
 
Brady's knee would have been blown out regardless of the surface because off the impact on the joint itself.

As for Moss, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have two bad knees.. But if you care to provide actual prove of this, I'd be willing to listen.

Yes you are correct that it a sideways impact on Brady's knee that did the damge but such injuries are almost alway more severe on turf because the foot is locked to the plastic turf. Something has to give because the turf will not so it is a joint that gives. On grass there is the possibility of the foot moving or divoting thus reducing the severity of the injury; does not always work this way but it can. In any case I am sure that Brady is not as keen on turf as before at least in private.

As far as Moss there was a report of him hobbing around the locker room with ice packs on both knees. What does this mean? Maybe the knees are old and arthritic; who knows but playing on turf cannot be the best way to treat them.

Al you doubters have to do is very carefully watch what happens when a player hits the turf. On the old Gillete field turf when a WR went down at high speed the shoulder would stick instead of slide and wrench the body around it in a pivot straining the shoulder [not always off course such as when the field was wet and slick]. When the same play happens on grass the WR slides and skids
 
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didn't welker blow out his knee on grass?

its a rough sport, boys. people are going to get hurt regardless of the surface
 
didn't welker blow out his knee on grass?

its a rough sport, boys. people are going to get hurt regardless of the surface

Sure (but it was a very uneven surface; some trays were soft and some hard and dry). Injuries do happen on grass but question is whether the injuries are more frequent and severe on turf. My feeling is that they are and dramatically so. Injuries that might be mild sprains on grass might be severe on turf. In addition to the severe injuries that put players on IR because of turf I feel that the whole team gets worn down from various sprains and bruises because of the less forgiving nature of turf.
 
I love the Kraft conspiracy theories. "He just wants money", lolol. You're telling me that a successful business man is skimping on his teams biggest investment (Brady/Moss/ Welker) to save money? Keeping these players on the field the entire season will 'save' him more compared to losing Brady for the season l.

That said, please keep going with the conspiracy. I love it.

Not a conspiracy but simple economics. The Krafts have squeezed as much money as they can out of the Patriots ticket holders so how do they make more? Re-use Gillette for other events is the obvious next step.

Ask yourself this: how much ticket revenues did the Patriots lose when Brady was out of the year? Nothing during the season and maybe a post season game or two.

Patriots tickets are sold out forever (like the Redskins) and it does not make too much difference as far as ticket sales if they do not win another championship or not. Obviously they must get lots of extra revenues for post season play but I suspect that they get more from other events such as soccer and concerts. Even if they did everything right and put in grass and used the stadium exclusively for the Patriots they may not win a championship so the heck with it; let the players get chewed up.
 
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Yes, you should use small cleats on artificial turf instead of long grass spikes, doing so results in much lower torque on leg tendons...Personally I played on this stuff for years in high school and college and never witnessed an attributable injury to "caught" cleats. This was after hyperextending both my knees in middle school and high school playing on natural grass fields due to the grass tearing out from under me while my legs were under stress. Probably if I was older and no so elastic those would have been severe ligament tears.

However, I've never played at a level where the force exerted by players was up to NFL standards, so there is no doubt a special concern for skill players at that level. But it can be managed much better via equipment than the alternative.

Also, my understanding is that MRSA is usually a problem only on indoor fields, which must be frequently disinfected. Natural sunlight and weather works as a natural disinfectant on outdoor surfaces.


Phenomenal post, articulate, intelligent, and filled with information instead of unsupported opinion. I'm putting my professor hat back on and giving it an A+.
 
Not a conspiracy but simple economics. The Krafts have squeezed as much money as they can out of the Patriots ticket holders so how do they make more? Re-use Gillette for other events is the obvious next step.

Ask yourself this: how much ticket revenues did the Patriots lose when Brady was out of the year? Nothing during the season and maybe a post season game or two.

Patriots tickets are sold out for here to eternity (like the Redskins) and it does not make too much difference as far as ticket sales if they do not win another championship or not. Obviously they must get lots of extra revenues for post season play but I suspect that they get more from other events such as soccer and concerts. Even if they did everything right and put in grass and used the stadium exclusively for the Patriots they may not win a championship so the heck with it; let the players get chewed up.

The conspiracy is they're putting turf in to make the money and therefore players are getting hurt. It doesnt matter what the field is they're going to extract as much revenue as they can and has been pointed out many posts before the concerts and soccer games dont contribute to the field getting torn up its football being played in this climate.
The field they put in is very expensive and it was put in to make the field SAFER to play on, than the mud pit, painted dirt they were playing on by Nov in previous years.
 
Not a conspiracy but simple economics. The Krafts have squeezed as much money as they can out of the Patriots ticket holders so how do they make more? Re-use Gillette for other events is the obvious next step.

Ask yourself this: how much ticket revenues did the Patriots lose when Brady was out of the year? Nothing during the season and maybe a post season game or two.

Patriots tickets are sold out forever (like the Redskins) and it does not make too much difference as far as ticket sales if they do not win another championship or not. Obviously they must get lots of extra revenues for post season play but I suspect that they get more from other events such as soccer and concerts. Even if they did everything right and put in grass and used the stadium exclusively for the Patriots they may not win a championship so the heck with it; let the players get chewed up.

You obviously underestimate what an NFL team does to a field. As aforementioned even if they did put in grass, they'd have to resod it every game and even then it would be annihilated. It just doesn't grow fast enough in the winter to withstand the constant abuse the players put on it. A rock concert vs several 300lb men pushing and shoving each other all over the field? Gimme a break, it's obvious that football is what obliterates the grass when you have real grass on a field that has heavy snowfall for a good portion of the year.

I don't know why everyone hates Kraft so much. I really don't. Sorry he bought this franchise and built his one of the best stadiums in the NFL with his own money. This isn't just directed at you Fred, but some people are just so goddamn ungrateful. I live down by the Chargers and their stadium is absolutely atrocious, Pats fans are VERY lucky. But we act like we've gotten the shaft constantly.
 
I don't know why everyone hates Kraft so much. I really don't. Sorry he bought this franchise and built his one of the best stadiums in the NFL with his own money. This isn't just directed at you Fred, but some people are just so goddamn ungrateful. I live down by the Chargers and their stadium is absolutely atrocious, Pats fans are VERY lucky. But we act like we've gotten the shaft constantly.

People up here like to complain, justified or not. I think the Krafts are the best thing that ever happened to this football team. At the beginning with the whole Tuna fiasco I wasnt so sure.
 
Some of you guys are out in leftfield with your theories, Jonatham Kraft was on weei and explained the whole field subject back when it was replaced. Even if only football was played on the field, as has been stated many times, it would get ripped up and look like crap come Nov-Dec because of our local weather. By that time of the year our field was a mud pit and newly laid sod is unsafe to play on.
They put the safest turf available on the field even though it was the most expensive at the time, at least it was when Jonathan did this interview.

Im sure they not trying to save pennies and forego grass and put million dollar players careers into jeopardy, that would'nt be the wisest of investments and the Krafts arent idiots.

Thank you. I'm baffled that an ownership that has so consistently invested in top-quality facilities and operations from stadium seating to practice fields to player food keeps getting labeled "cheap."

Didn't they put in the turf after the season where the field had deteriorated to pure mud, and they had to take the drastic step of replacing the grass in the middle of the season? At the time, the move to turf was taken as a sensible response to unacceptable conditions. But now, years later, that's morphed into "those money-grubbing Krafts knowingly sacrificing players' bodies to the temple of concert revenues." Ugh, and ugh again.
 
Phenomenal post, articulate, intelligent, and filled with information instead of unsupported opinion. I'm putting my professor hat back on and giving it an A+.

Unoriginal is a tremendous poster and a great resource for the site. He just doesn't post enough. Perhaps extortion is in order........... Maybe we can get Ian to threaten to take away the "Un" from his screen name or something.
 
Yes, you should use small cleats on artificial turf instead of long grass spikes, doing so results in much lower torque on leg tendons. The problem is, like players not feeling comfortable in the Revolution helmets or wearing leg pads, using short spikes results in inferior grip and cutting ability, so they play slower. If you're wearing small cleats and the guy across from you is wearing grass cleats, you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage until they cart your opponent off the field. I would suspect the NFL has equipment rules to maintain safety (high school football usually does, including cleat length) but I can't recall a penalty or fine given for an equipment infraction (aside from Clinton Portis' socks etc.)



That's some of it. Also, that the field IS maintainable under anything approaching normal use late into the season. Many teams with natural grass resort to resodding their field every game late in the season, the result being that they turn into soup during wet weather or simply detach from the loam.



Most prevalent on the old hard AstroTurf, but it happens on grass all the time, as its an injury that usually occurs when a player is being piled on when going down (skill position), or has weight put on his calf when on a knee (linemen). It's an issue of athletic shoes not having stiff enough soles. According to the NFLPA, players choose shoes based on comfort and lightness; toe flexion protection is not the leading criteria.



Player performance, plus it was felt that the low quality turf was causing leg injuries. It was a season after the poor natural grass at Heinz Field was implicated in injuries to Rodney Harrison and Matt Light during the same game.



The Ravens have played on artificial turf since 2003, after their natural surface crapped out. They were actually one of the first outdoor fields to make the switch, after Seattle.



Lambeau Field is used for literally NOTHING else apart from Packers football. They used to resod it every week late in the season and then heat and tarp it, giving it that distinctive brown color on game day. After it was ranked one of the worst playing surfaces in the NFL for a couple of NFLPA surveys the Packers went to a hybrid field in 2006, so it is no longer natural grass. But they still can't even play high school games on it.



The full results from those surveys:

source: Artificial-Or-Natural-Players-Respond / News - NFLPlayers.com

Foxboro is an inclement weather city, and the 2008 survey notes that New England changed to FieldTurf, while Pittsburgh simply resodded, and again came in as one of the worst fields in the NFL. Infilled turf is popular because there isn't a good way to get a consistent natural grass surface throughout the season anywhere north of Washington. Denver alone doesn't seem to have big problems, probably because they get a lot of sunlight year round.

Personally I played on this stuff for years in high school and college and never witnessed an attributable injury to "caught" cleats. This was after hyperextending both my knees in middle school and high school playing on natural grass fields due to the grass tearing out from under me while my legs were under stress. Probably if I was older and no so elastic those would have been severe ligament tears.

However, I've never played at a level where the force exerted by players was up to NFL standards, so there is no doubt a special concern for skill players at that level. But it can be managed much better via equipment than the alternative.

Also, my understanding is that MRSA is usually a problem only on indoor fields, which must be frequently disinfected. Natural sunlight and weather works as a natural disinfectant on outdoor surfaces.

Bump.

This is a great post on a subject that is more complicated than it appears on the surface (excuse the pun).

I'm surprised that nobody has asked Unoriginal this question, so allow me to be the first:

Do the Krafts now have the best available surface for this particular location, and if not, then what would you recommend?
 
Phenomenal post, articulate, intelligent, and filled with information instead of unsupported opinion. I'm putting my professor hat back on and giving it an A+.

Thanks professor, though I must note I think you quoted the more opinionated parts of my post.

Unoriginal is a tremendous poster and a great resource for the site. He just doesn't post enough. Perhaps extortion is in order........... Maybe we can get Ian to threaten to take away the "Un" from his screen name or something.

I don't think I could deal with the pressure of being "Original."

Do the Krafts now have the best available surface for this particular location, and if not, then what would you recommend?

I really have no idea what the best product is out there for Gillette Stadium, I'm not familiar with all the companies, or all their different products, or the differences between generations of products for infilled turf or hybrid grass. All I can give is my own experience playing on older versions of the stuff, which was pretty positive. Really the worst I can say about it is that it can get hot under a July sun, almost like holding practice in a parking lot. But that's easily solved with lots of water.

I'm confident the Krafts are going with the safest product they can; there's really no reason to replace a three-and-a-half year old installation otherwise. My high school is still playing on the same surface they installed back in 2000, and they use the **** out of it. Before they went to FieldTurf, the stadium field was only used for Friday night football games and Wednesday band practices in the fall. Now basically it's booked from 3 PM to 9 PM every day of the week by the varsity football and soccer teams, then Saturday and Sunday by everyone from local club teams to youth soccer leagues to semi-pro lacrosse.
 
I really have no idea what the best product is out there for Gillette Stadium, I'm not familiar with all the companies, or all their different products, or the differences between generations of products for infilled turf or hybrid grass. All I can give is my own experience playing on older versions of the stuff, which was pretty positive. Really the worst I can say about it is that it can get hot under a July sun, almost like holding practice in a parking lot. But that's easily solved with lots of water.

I'm confident the Krafts are going with the safest product they can; there's really no reason to replace a three-and-a-half year old installation otherwise. My high school is still playing on the same surface they installed back in 2000, and they use the **** out of it. Before they went to FieldTurf, the stadium field was only used for Friday night football games and Wednesday band practices in the fall. Now basically it's booked from 3 PM to 9 PM every day of the week by the varsity football and soccer teams, then Saturday and Sunday by everyone from local club teams to youth soccer leagues to semi-pro lacrosse.


Unoriginal - I do appreciate what you have brought to the thread.

My concern is that there were 3 injuries in the Rams game that were all leg injuries. In all 3 cases, the leg that was injured seems to "catch the cleats" in the turf, for lack of a better term. I know that the turf was replaced this off-season which is why I brought it up. I hadn't remembered any other game on the Field Turf where there were 3 injuries like that. Hence the cause for concern.

While I agree that the Krafts would never, knowingly, put down a product that wasn't safe, I do know that there are plenty of companies who misrepresent their products to get the sale. Again, I'm not saying that this is the case, but it seemed more than a coincidence that there were those 3 leg injuries in which the player's foot seem to catch. Believe me, I hope that I am wrong about this. It's it seemed to be more than a coincidence.
 
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My concern is that there were 3 injuries in the Rams game that were all leg injuries. In all 3 cases, the leg that was injured seems to "catch the cleats" in the turf, for lack of a better term. I know that the turf was replaced this off-season which is why I brought it up. I hadn't remembered any other game on the Field Turf where there were 3 injuries like that. Hence the cause for concern.

... it seemed more than a coincidence that there were those 3 leg injuries in which the player's foot seem to catch. Believe me, I hope that I am wrong about this. It's it seemed to be more than a coincidence.

When you play on turf, especially newer turf, it's pretty common to find long blades of the "grass" caught in your cleats after a practice or a game. Infrequently you hit a tangle that's enough to trip you up, aka "the turf monster" gets you. At NFL speeds its certainly possible a catch at the wrong moment could tear a ligament.
 
This is a great post on a subject that is more complicated than it appears on the surface (excuse the pun).

I'm surprised that nobody has asked Unoriginal this question, so allow me to be the first:

Do the Krafts now have the best available surface for this particular location, and if not, then what would you recommend?

I know when they first replaced the grass with the newer turf Jonathan said they were pretty thorough in reviewing the product and were pretty sure it was the best and safest turf available. I would think they would be as thorough this time around and installed what they thought was the best product available. Now, maybe it is or maybe it isnt and the other night was a coincidence but Im confident they had good intentions and are not pinching pennies.
 
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Unoriginal - I do appreciate what you have brought to the thread.

My concern is that there were 3 injuries in the Rams game that were all leg injuries. In all 3 cases, the leg that was injured seems to "catch the cleats" in the turf, for lack of a better term. I know that the turf was replaced this off-season which is why I brought it up. I hadn't remembered any other game on the Field Turf where there were 3 injuries like that. Hence the cause for concern.

While I agree that the Krafts would never, knowingly, put down a product that wasn't safe, I do know that there are plenty of companies who misrepresent their products to get the sale. Again, I'm not saying that this is the case, but it seemed more than a coincidence that there were those 3 leg injuries in which the player's foot seem to catch. Believe me, I hope that I am wrong about this. It's it seemed to be more than a coincidence.
I agree maybe a concern..but also maybe a cleat issue?? Again..I have NO idea about which cleats are better for which turf..but the surface is only one part of it. Good points though and overall a concern...Unoriginal with a GREAT post and deep explanation.
 
Yes, you should use small cleats on artificial turf instead of long grass spikes, doing so results in much lower torque on leg tendons. The problem is, like players not feeling comfortable in the Revolution helmets or wearing leg pads, using short spikes results in inferior grip and cutting ability, so they play slower. If you're wearing small cleats and the guy across from you is wearing grass cleats, you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage until they cart your opponent off the field. I would suspect the NFL has equipment rules to maintain safety (high school football usually does, including cleat length) but I can't recall a penalty or fine given for an equipment infraction (aside from Clinton Portis' socks etc.)



That's some of it. Also, that the field IS maintainable under anything approaching normal use late into the season. Many teams with natural grass resort to resodding their field every game late in the season, the result being that they turn into soup during wet weather or simply detach from the loam.



Most prevalent on the old hard AstroTurf, but it happens on grass all the time, as its an injury that usually occurs when a player is being piled on when going down (skill position), or has weight put on his calf when on a knee (linemen). It's an issue of athletic shoes not having stiff enough soles. According to the NFLPA, players choose shoes based on comfort and lightness; toe flexion protection is not the leading criteria.



Player performance, plus it was felt that the low quality turf was causing leg injuries. It was a season after the poor natural grass at Heinz Field was implicated in injuries to Rodney Harrison and Matt Light during the same game.



The Ravens have played on artificial turf since 2003, after their natural surface crapped out. They were actually one of the first outdoor fields to make the switch, after Seattle.



Lambeau Field is used for literally NOTHING else apart from Packers football. They used to resod it every week late in the season and then heat and tarp it, giving it that distinctive brown color on game day. After it was ranked one of the worst playing surfaces in the NFL for a couple of NFLPA surveys the Packers went to a hybrid field in 2006, so it is no longer natural grass. But they still can't even play high school games on it.



The full results from those surveys:

source: Artificial-Or-Natural-Players-Respond / News - NFLPlayers.com

Foxboro is an inclement weather city, and the 2008 survey notes that New England changed to FieldTurf, while Pittsburgh simply resodded, and again came in as one of the worst fields in the NFL. Infilled turf is popular because there isn't a good way to get a consistent natural grass surface throughout the season anywhere north of Washington. Denver alone doesn't seem to have big problems, probably because they get a lot of sunlight year round.

Personally I played on this stuff for years in high school and college and never witnessed an attributable injury to "caught" cleats. This was after hyperextending both my knees in middle school and high school playing on natural grass fields due to the grass tearing out from under me while my legs were under stress. Probably if I was older and no so elastic those would have been severe ligament tears.

However, I've never played at a level where the force exerted by players was up to NFL standards, so there is no doubt a special concern for skill players at that level. But it can be managed much better via equipment than the alternative.

Also, my understanding is that MRSA is usually a problem only on indoor fields, which must be frequently disinfected. Natural sunlight and weather works as a natural disinfectant on outdoor surfaces.

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*I'm new, here: Would someone please educate me as to the deal with this Site only carrying the LAST quote forward? The benefits are obvious, but it seems to me that they are clearly outweighed by the cost...
 
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