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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by mayoclinic, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Richard Hill from Pats' Pulpit had an interesting take on the Talib trade and it's potential affect on Pat Chung's situation:

    Secondary Fallout: How Talib Affects the Defensive Backs - Pats Pulpit

    I've always been a Chung fan, but his increasing liability in coverage has pushed me to the point of moving on. Hill's perspective is that the deficiencies of the Pats' CBs and the lack of a true deep FS since Brandon Meriweather was cut have forced the Pats to play Chung out of position, exposing his weaknesses and limiting his strengths. From this perspective, if Chung is able to regain his previous form, a safety rotation of McCourty/Chung/Wilson/Gregory/Ebner with a CB group of Talib/Dennard/(Dowling hopefully in 2013)/Cole/Arrington wouldn't be bad. Gregory can also play the slot/nickel role, adding depth. If Chung can regain some of his form over the second half of the season, it may be worth reconsidering whether he should be part of the equation for the future. He could be less expensive than the FA options available, and if McCourty adapts to the role of a deep FS then the need for someone like a Goldson/Byrd/Reed would not be so great.
     
  2. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey


    [​IMG]
     
  3. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    You just had to rub salt in the would. I've coveted Barwin months before the 09 draft, I have a horrible feeling he doesn't get away from the Texans anytime soon.
     
  4. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    They're up against the cap and have (I believe unless I'm missing deals that got done) Shaub and Duane Brown to sign as well. Something has to give.
     
  5. Gronkandez

    Gronkandez Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I just scanned the OP because I'm not as pumped for this draft (only one first round pick? meh).

    My high level reactions are:

    1) No Edelmen?! That will cause waves around here.

    2) No Honey Badger?? Honey Badger may not give a ***** but I do. He has Tampa Bay's 7th round pick written all over him!!
     
  6. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    No Jersey Selected

    Kouto, White, Martin, HooHoo, Tarp & Rivera are nothing more than bottom-of-roster flotsam
    in need of immediate upgrade. Welker's a No-Brainer, SeaBass needs to stay healthy, and
    Talib needs to stay out of trouble.

    Cole, Ballard, Salas & Fletcher would be welcome re-signings neither of whom should be cost-prohibitive.

    Edit: forgot to include Moore, who would be an OK 10th DB, though I prefer the size/aggressiveness
    of Cole in that role.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  7. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    Actually they both did get extended so that sucks.
     
  8. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    No Jersey Selected

    Hill makes good points, and I would have no problem re-signing Chung for the vet minimum +,
    just as I would've had no problem re-signing Jimmy Sanders at the same price.
     
  9. Luxusdk

    Luxusdk On the Game Day Roster

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    #91 Jersey

    So mayo's post couldn't do it ?
     
  10. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #3 Jersey

    The good news, though, is that if Hoomanawanui et al. are "flotsam," then you can just give them a minimum-level tender. If they leave, so what? If they stay, they don't cost anything unless they stay on the 53.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  11. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    One In a Million, Brother Mayo!! :rocker:

    :youtheman: :youtheman: :youtheman:

    Mind you: I wouldn't've traded for this guy in a billion years, but it's certainly not because I don't think he can be an extraordinary ~ even All Pro ~ PressMan Corner. This lunatic has Verticity up the WAZOO!! Hah!! [​IMG]

    God, I love the FootBall player we just snagged. To pull in a truly physical Corner, one who gets great accolades for'is Run Defense and clearly enjoys contact...and actually boasts such phenomenal Verticity when he Flips the Hips and runs, and who is young and healthy ~ physically, anyway ~ is nothing short of thrilling.

    And if this does portend a permanent move of Devin McCourty to Free Safety, and a shift back towards more of a One Deep set, color me giddy.

    I've always considered Free Safety to be the most critical position in the Secondary ~ and nothing has supported that Philosophy more that the horrifying pyrotechnics of the last one and an half nerve-racking Seasons ~ but that doesn't mean that it requires the rarest SkillSet, or that your "best" DBack ought necessarily man the position.

    Indeed, if it were possible to quantify "Talent", I expect we'd pretty much all agree that Aqib Talib has significantly more'f it than Devin McCourty.

    Frankly, superior Verticity ~ the ability to Flip Hips and Turn & Burn well enough to stay even in the same Zip Code as Wide Receivers who have the advantage both of knowing what Play is called and of running forward ~ baffles and amazes me: I can generally run forward and in a straight line for 5 or 10 yards without falling down, most days. Ask me, on the other hand, to run backwards or sideways, while trying to rapidly react to the redirecting and hornswoggling Wide Receiver I'm trying to cover, and I assure you that I will break both ankles.

    And that, of course, is why I treasure that attribute.

    Well, plus the fact that I consider it the aspect of any Corner's Game ~ especially a Press Corner, of course ~ that is more essential than all other aspects combined.

    I believe that Devin McCourty actually possesses that attribute in significant quantity, and that he's been playing pretty well, this year. But I believe ~ as you clearly and eloquently do, Brother Mayo ~ that as a CornerBack he makes one Hell of a fine Free Safety. Haw.

    A Free Safety, in my view, needs, above all else, superior Processing Speed, Diagnostic Acuity, and Burst ~ Short Speed ~ and I believe that Devin McCourty commands those in spades.

    Aqib Talib, on the other hand, boasts a spectacular combination of Verticity and beautifully brutal physicality, both in Press and in Run Support.

    In a word: He was born to play PressMan Corner, and McCourty was born to play Free Safety, a position I consider even more vital to our Championship Quest than Corner.

    And if this acquisition portends a division of the Safeties' responsibilities into more of a classic Free Safety/Strong Safety division, allowing Pat Chung to play far more of the latter, we have substantially upgraded three Positions.

    And not just three.

    It seems highly likely that allowing Pat Chung and Tavon Wilson to play more "downhill" spreads the joy to the MidFielders, as Hill also points out: if Chung actually returns to making most'f'is plays in front'f'm ~ now possible with a potentially All Pro Caliber Free Safety in McCourty now behind'm, which in turn is possible because of the arrival of an equally potentially All Pro Corner in Talib ~ then Brandon Spikes' job suddenly become significantly easier: He, too, is freed, to a greater extent, to play less reactively and more "downhill." And that, of course, plays to'is considerable strengths: Brandon Spikes, freed to simply react and attack what's in front of'm, is terrifying.

    Yes. We are talking about significantly improving four positions. :eek:

    And that, of course, should enhance the freedom of movement of everyone out there, right down to the Tackles.

    Imagine ~ I'm quite sure that you already have ~ what Chandler Jones might accomplish with a drastically improved Pass Coverage behind'm?? :eek:

    Of course, the Pass Rush as well as the Run Defense of the entire Front 7 will benefit...and that's without accounting for the exceptional psychological boost that this move is going to give everyone, the Impact of which can, in and of itself, be spectacular.

    The 2006 Colts ~ sorry, this is the best example that I know of!! ~ were burdened by an historically horrible Run Defense all season long...And yet when Bob Sanders rejoined them just in time for the PlayOffs, the entire unit was transformed, and they played extraordinary Run Defense.

    The potential Ripple Effect of acquiring the services of Aqib Talib, combined with the accession of Alfonzo Dennard, and what I already fully expected would be a tremendous second half surge by our Defense ~ helped in no small measure by an anticipated tremendous second half surge by our Offense, allowing for many "Pin Your Ears Back" Sets for our D!! ~ can best be put in the fine words of our man Brother Mayo:

    "Super Bowl, Baby!!" :rocker:

    Now we just need to remember to frisk the guy before he enters the locker room. [​IMG]
     
  12. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Excellent post, you did a magnificent job of explaining "impact", I certainly hope we get a nice boost from this acquisition.
     
  13. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    See post #11 re the Honey Badger. This OP was written before his latest MJ run in, and before we got TB's 7th round pick. I've already suggested in the Aqib Talib thread on the main forum that "he has Tampa Bay's 7th round pick written all over him", as you so eloquently put it. :D
     
  14. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #3 Jersey

    Thanks, Bro. :cool:

    It's like my good friend, Bill The Mad (Genius) is fond of saying:

    "In Brother Mayo...We Trust." [​IMG]
     
  15. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #3 Jersey

    I heartily agree with the Top Line, there.

    Honestly, I never see reason to spend heavy Draft Capital on the Secondary, as it seems to me that there are always exceptional raw Talents available on Day 3 and UFA.

    If anybody's taking up a collection to spend on an Elite Level D Back Coach, on the other hand...:rolleyes:
     
  16. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #3 Jersey

    1 ~ Do you seriously think that the Bucs would trade Aqib Talib for a deferred Day 3 Pick? Please. :rolleyes:

    2 ~ Devin McCourty to Free Safety ~ real Free Safety, with Pat Chung back in The Box where he belongs ~ would be a Dream Come True: Free Safety is in my mind the most important position in the Secondary ~ though I believe that the highly underutilized Strong Safety ought to be ~ and sending McCourty thither on a permanent basis offers our entire Defense a much more important boon than even a CornerBack of Aqib Talib's exceptional skills does.

    3 ~ Resign Sebastian The Cruel!! YES!! :rocker: I heaped lofty and lavish praise on that cat, in my PreSeason PreView, as I saw then what I saw back in 2009: Multiple Pro Bowl Potential. I presume nothing of the future, of course, but it really does look like he's starting to work off the effects of his recent back problems...and if he completes that process and has a long, healthy career, his potential is awesome.

    4 ~ Yes!! My GamePlan, this Spring, you may recall, was to either hit Wes Welker with consecutive Franchise Tags ~ 1 Down/1 To Go ~ or an unlikely two year contract...My thinking being that by 2014, his Salad Days are just about behind'm. At that point, I would LOVE to keep'm at a reduced rate, should he be amenable to it.

    5 ~ There are a few Caveats to any desire I'd have to extend Aqib Talib, but the most important one has already been met: Mad Bill has taken a long look at Talib's hideous Past, and has nevertheless made the judgment ~ presumably ~ that the core Character of this kid is either redeemable or far better than meets the eye...Even so, the price would have to be right, and if he has a great second half ~ a distinct possibility ~ that may not be the case.

    6 ~ As an unwavering Danny WoodHead Fanatic since before he ever took a snap with us, I heartily agree with the Wisdom of resigning this phenomenal FootBall player...Myron Pryor?? Meh. Great Talent. Disgusted with his fragility. He would be a tremendous asset...If he ever played a Down for us.

    7 ~ I'd just as soon keep Ron Brace and Julian Edelman, though I could see improving on them...Ditto, Kyle Arrington, who I think is going to come back big, next year...and quite possibly late this year.
     
  17. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Pro Bowl Player

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    I respectfully disagree concerning the wide receiver position as the fourth priority. Based upon the limited number of draft selections in the 2013 NFL Draft, the wide receiver needs for the 2013 NFL Season can be fulfilled as follows:

    WR1: Wes Welker
    WR2: Brandon Lloyd
    WR3: Jabar Gaffney
    WR4: Greg Salas
    WR5: Matt Slater

    In his first game with the Miami Dolphins, Jabar Gaffney had more receiving yards with one catch than Deion Branch and Julian Edelman combined in the last two games.
     
  18. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Gaffney's on another team right now. I understand that he preferred to sign with the Pats, but I don't think we can count on him being back at the moment. I hope that the Pats keep Welker, but it's not a given, and it most likely will only be for one year. Even if your scenario holds true, a the beginning of the 2013 season your top 3 receivers would all be 32, and Welker would almost certainly be in his last year with the team. Some young talent at the position and long term development is needed. It's not my top priority by any means, which is why it was #4 on my list, but I don't think it should be entirely ignored.
     
  19. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not only did Sanders' return transform the 2006 Colts' defense from abysmal to SB-worthy, the 2007 team returned essentially the same personnel and had one of the best defenses in the NFL, finishing 1st in scoring defense (16.8 PPG), 3rd in total yards allowed (279.7 YPG) and 2nd in pass defense (172.8 YPG). Sanders, of course, won the DPOY that year.
     
  20. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Pro Bowl Player

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    Jabar Gaffney signed a one year contract with the Miami Dolphins. Jabar Gaffney will be an unrestricted free agent in 2013.

    Jabar Gaffney - Miami Dolphins - 2012 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

    I would only expect to sign Jabar Gaffney to a one year contract.

    The New England Patriots did trade a future late round draft pick for former St Louis Rams wide receiver Greg Salas.

    Age does not concern me as much as knowledge of the New England Patriots pass offense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012

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