Misconception w/Talib

[ay-yo]

Q: As a safety and a captain on this defense, do you take more accountability for the way your secondary group performs?

DM: Definitely. I think one cool thing about our defense is we almost have a captain at every level. Playing safety, I think you kind of have to be accountable for the whole defense and the coverage as whole because so much of the communication will be between those two safeties letting the corners know, letting the linebackers know what we’re doing, what coverage we’re playing and different things like that. Being a captain and a safety, I think a lot of the communication falls on me and whoever else is in at safety. Especially with me and Steve [Gregory] in there, we have to do a lot of communicating.

Q: Do you like that responsibility?

DM: Yeah. It’s good. You have to put the work in studying and know what different guys are doing, what the offense is doing, what your guys need to do. That’s always key. When you can get guys on the same page, I think that’s when we play at our best.

LINK

Sounds as though the CBs and LBs don't know what coverage the safeties are playing after breaking the huddle until the safeties make a call. Even if we got the best FA safety available your still asking that guy to come in and take on this decision making and communication responsibility and there's no way he will no the defensive playbook better than McCourty.

 

[DocHoliday]

After last years AFCCG Sterling Moore commented that he didn't get the call in the Lee Evans strip and he looked at DMC -safety in that play - who hadn't heard it either.

 

[supafly]

Here's the problem with moving McCourty back to CB, he's the main communicator to the rest of the secondary and he can't do that from the CB position. From safety he calls out the play or calls a coverage audible and make sure guys are in the right position. If you move McCourty to CB not only do you need a guy who has the physical ability to play the position but you need a guy who can get everybody lined up and make sure everybody knows there assignment. I don't think Gregory or Wilson can be that guy and I don't think somebody with no experience in this defense can either, not in year one. That's why we leave McCourty at safety regardless of your opinion of his CB abilities.

I think that the good safety play of McCourty had the majority to do with the overall improvement of the secondary, so I too would like to keep him there if possible.

That said, there are indeed options if Talib cannot be resigned, and the possibility exists that we may draft another safety or look to FA for one anyway...or even both.

One way or another I expect the secondary, and the defense in general to continue to improve.

Having the 9th ranked points on defense this year is nothing to be ashamed about, as it is a vast improvement from 15th last season.

 

[Triumph]

I don't know if I agree with this. McCourty is playing much better at safety, and maybe that has helped us to forget how bad he was at corner earlier in the year.

Agreed. McCourty is brutal at CB.

 

[Triumph]

I beg your pardon. He made two plays in the 1st Q of sundays that I hadn't seen from a Pats corner all year.
Talib allowed you to play 1 on1 with Boldin confidentley.
He made the defense a lot better because that allowed other players to be better. It cetainley has to effect the opposing QB's confidence especially when the D can't blitz as much.

Well said.

Im glad certain fans arent running this team. Its bizzarro world where McCourty is a better cover corner than Talib.

 

[Triumph]

While I agree with the opinion on Talib; I have to pre-emptively correct your inaccuracy before someone else uses it to support a different opiniion.

The D did NOT go south in a hurry. It took until 3Q. Talib went down early in 1Q. BUT.... the only reason why is that Caldwell stubbornly stuck to his run on 1down, dont challenge downfield much strategy until he got into the clubhouse at half-time and someone beat him about the head& shoulders and said 'why aren't you attacking this'.

(Note: IMO that lack of OC adaptability on the fly in Baltimore means they will have a tough time vs SF. )

Agree. It would have been much worse with an aggressive OC. I kept asking myself why wasnt Caldwell going after Arrington after Talib left. Troy Brown tweeted that Caldwell was NE best defensive weapon.

Nothing has changed in the NFL. Great defense can still shut down an offense. Offense doesnt rule and the NFL hasnt moved into the Arena football era. The #1 scoring offense in the NFL just got shut down and could only muster 13 points. The 2nd ranked scoring offense was shut down last weekend in Denver and they only scored 17 points. There was a fumble and 2 INTS in both games.

The same defensive tatics that have worked for years still apply today. Shut down the run, make WRs,TEs,RBs physically pay for receptions, hit the QB. You dont even need to sack, but get your hits in even if the QB completes the pass.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Agree. It would have been much worse with an aggressive OC. I kept asking myself why wasnt Caldwell going after Arrington after Talib left. Troy Brown tweeted that Caldwell was NE best defensive weapon.

Nothing has changed in the NFL. Great defense can still shut down an offense. Offense doesnt rule and the NFL hasnt moved into the Arena football era. The #1 scoring offense in the NFL just got shut down and could only muster 13 points. The 2nd ranked scoring offense was shut down last weekend in Denver and they only scored 17 points. There was a fumble and 2 INTS in both games.

The same defensive tatics that have worked for years still apply today. Shut down the run, make WRs,TEs,RBs physically pay for receptions, hit the QB. You dont even need to sack, but get your hits in even if the QB completes the pass.

Well there it is. Anyway, I'm a big believer in cause and effect although I know others aren't. Make plays or don't. However the ability of this offense to score was also diminished, due not only to the opposing defense but also to the the Ravens offense sustaining drives in the 2nd half giving the Pats less drives to work with. It all ties together in the grand scheme of things. Pats have got to get better on both sides of the ball and also be able to make better adjustments if the other defense takes away what they like to do.

 

[1%er]

I stopped right there AJ! I knew that was coming. We just have to agree to dissagree.

I haven't gone through the tape well enough to say McCourty was better than Talib but I would have to agree with Andy and say he played at least as well as Talib.

Not to slight Talib but he also played every game with McCourty at free safety and Dennard opposite him which is a significant advantage over what McCourty who played Chung, Gregory Wilson and even Ebner behind him at safety as well as Arrington opposite him.

 

[supafly]

I haven't gone through the tape well enough to say McCourty was better than Talib but I would have to agree with Andy and say he played at least as well as Talib.

Not to slight Talib but he also played every game with McCourty at free safety and Dennard opposite him which is a significant advantage over what McCourty who played Chung, Gregory Wilson and even Ebner behind him at safety as well as Arrington opposite him.

That should be a point that is not overlooked.

The improved play of the safeties made everything instantly better. There were many times that the safeties were playing extremely poorly early on, and that led to a lot of big plays given up, not to mention tons of learning experiences.

I don't personally necessarily know "who is better" between DMcC and Talib at CB, but they certainly aren't as far apart as some people are suggesting.

The biggest difference is that Talib is better in man coverage, and that allows our scheme to be more aggressively oriented.

I hope that he stays, at least for a 1 year "prove it" deal to allow himself a chance at a big pact next offseason. If he doesn't however, the secondary can still show something much closer to what we saw at the end of the season, rather than the beginning.

 

[supafly]

Well said.

Im glad certain fans arent running this team. Its bizzarro world where McCourty is a better cover corner than Talib.

I think we are all in 100% agreement that we'd all like Talib to stay, Triumph.

I also think that we're all in 100% agreement that he made the play of the CB position better than it was--at least I'd hope so anyway.

The only disagreement lies as to what extent his improvement was, and to his potential worth in terms of cap cost and pact negotiations. There are still some questions/concerns as to how much he really played, disagreements in his impact as some seem to be giving it a "9/10 or 10/10," while others see it closer to a 6.5/10 or a 7/10, or something in that range.

That is understandable due to the fact that our secondary was much improved in other areas (DMcC to safety, Dennard starting outside, Arrington to the slot, and the improved play of Gregory as opposed to the beginning. This also takes into acct the removal of Chung, the removal of Wilson as a starter, and the improvement on DMcC/Arrington on the outside....those are a LOT of other factors that come into play here)

If he can stay on a cheaper 1 yr prove it deal, or even a reasonable 2-3 yr pact for 5-6 million per year, then great! That would be the best case scenario all around, and it would give us a lot of optimism moving forward about the continuation of the progression that we saw.

If not, they should be able to still continue upon much of that improvement that we saw, as Dennard and McCourty at safety are a very nice start, especially with the upcoming draft, FA possibilities, and younger players that we still have growing like Wilson and even Dowling, who also still has to be included at this point.

I think it all comes down to salary cap value and the overall team building process, and that is where some of us are not seeing things exactly the same as you may be.

 

[ATippett56]

Forget about Aqib Talib.

Keenan Lewis from the Pittsburgh Steelers is the answer to the cornerback question in unrestricted free agency.

 

[Sciz]

Forget about Aqib Talib.

Keenan Lewis from the Pittsburgh Steelers is the answer to the cornerback question in unrestricted free agency.

I'm a big fan, but it's not as easy as saying that the Pats absolutely need to sign him. There will be competition.

 

[Marqui]

Keenan Lewis from the Pittsburgh Steelers is the answer to the cornerback question in unrestricted free agency.

If he's so great, why are the Steelers letting him go?

 

[Sciz]

If he's so great, why are the Steelers letting him go?

They're $11M over the cap

 

[ausbacker]

Agreed. McCourty is brutal at CB.

You're wildly entertaining Triumph.

 

[ATippett56]

If he's so great, why are the Steelers letting him go?

NFL mailbag -- Carryover rules impact cap strategy - ESPN

 

[1%er]

I think we are all in 100% agreement that we'd all like Talib to stay, Triumph.

I also think that we're all in 100% agreement that he made the play of the CB position better than it was--at least I'd hope so anyway.

The only disagreement lies as to what extent his improvement was, and to his potential worth in terms of cap cost and pact negotiations. There are still some questions/concerns as to how much he really played, disagreements in his impact as some seem to be giving it a "9/10 or 10/10," while others see it closer to a 6.5/10 or a 7/10, or something in that range.

That is understandable due to the fact that our secondary was much improved in other areas (DMcC to safety, Dennard starting outside, Arrington to the slot, and the improved play of Gregory as opposed to the beginning. This also takes into acct the removal of Chung, the removal of Wilson as a starter, and the improvement on DMcC/Arrington on the outside....those are a LOT of other factors that come into play here)

If he can stay on a cheaper 1 yr prove it deal, or even a reasonable 2-3 yr pact for 5-6 million per year, then great! That would be the best case scenario all around, and it would give us a lot of optimism moving forward about the continuation of the progression that we saw.

If not, they should be able to still continue upon much of that improvement that we saw, as Dennard and McCourty at safety are a very nice start, especially with the upcoming draft, FA possibilities, and younger players that we still have growing like Wilson and even Dowling, who also still has to be included at this point.

I think it all comes down to salary cap value and the overall team building process, and that is where some of us are not seeing things exactly the same as you may be.

The main reason I want Talib is because we gave up a 4th rounder. Had we won a SB with him I'd be ok with that but now I'd like to get more out of him to justify the pick being gone.

 

[supafly]

They're $11M over the cap

The Steelers are not really in the habit of allowing young, talented defensive players walk away, especially those who won't be breaking the bank after one late season push. I am stuck living in Pittsburgh where all I hear is Steeler talk 24/7/365, and it isn't like he was drawing interest in all of the media and fan outlets. He came on when Ike Taylor went down with his injury.

Even then he didn't have a single INT all year, and has one lousy INT for his entire 4 year career. His previous high was 6 passes defended. Again, I think that he is potentially a young up and coming player for them, but they aren't exactly in position to let young talent walk away, not with their age issues on defense. He isn't going to cost them that much to resign in terms of NFL CB's.

Not only that, we've seen them in cap trouble before, and it took them a matter of a couple of days to restructure a few pacts like Roethlisberger etc to instantly get under their number. Their 11 million is one Roethlisberger restructure to a bonus + maybe a James Harrison cut away from being competely fine again.

 

[Sciz]

Well they're definitely not franchising him, and it's anybody's game after that. While the 0 picks are awfully disappointing, those 23 PDs are fantastic.

Also, it seems that some Steelers fans are okay with Cortez Allen starting opposite Ike Taylor next season. Allen has two years left on his contract, so that'd delay them having to resign a CB for two more years, when they should have some of those older players and their contracts off the team. I don't think Allen is as good as Lewis, but he might be good enough that they take the downgrade in order to save money.

 

[supafly]

The main reason I want Talib is because we gave up a 4th rounder. Had we won a SB with him I'd be ok with that but now I'd like to get more out of him to justify the pick being gone.

And that is certainly a fair point, and one that I imagine Belichick weighed before making the decision. In the end he felt that is was worth the gamble of the mid round pick to shore up an area of weakness for the stretch run, and although it probably wasn't worth losing the 4th rounder, it did certainly help. I wouldn't have been concerned in the least had it been a 5th, so losing a 4th shouldn't be that much different.

That said, I think that we will end up trading down a couple of times to add some additional picks in the later rounds, or we'll be fine with bulking up the first few rounds, or likely a combination of both. In the end it will be business as usual.

The loss of the 4th/5th/6th rounders this year won't be nearly as big of a deal as some will be led to believe. I would assume that Belichick will still have a pick or two in that area at the least, and if not life will go on. There are already limited spots available for rookies as it is--at least moreso than many other teams, and Belichick is always a hawk with UDFAs and free agency too. He'll make up for any lack of picks in those areas if it comes down to it. What he won't do is overpay or offer a longer term deal to Talib, at least not yet anyway. Another year here and it could be a totally different story.