Misconception w/Talib

[PatriotDynasty_12]

Your memeory is faulty.
We were 6-3 without Talib, not 3-3.
Talib played vs:
Indy (and played poorly)
Jets
Miaimi first game
Houston
SF
and the Houston playoff game

I know that everyone wanted to believe he was making a huge difference, but the reality doesn't match the perception

Technically, you're right. However, we were 3-3 when BB traded (trade deadline, I know) for Talib, indicating that Belichick was not confident with his group going forward if he was serious about winning a Super Bowl. And they beat the Rams, the Jets, Buffalo, Titans, and the Broncos (the only tough team) before Talib came into the picture. And lost to the Seahawks, Cardinals and Ravens, without Talib. I'd say you're not giving Talib enough credit for what he brought to this D. I know he hasn't really "proven" to be worthy of a long-term contract (franchise tag?), but it's been real difficult for BB to find a reliable corner and it'd be sad to see him walk, IMO.

 

[Triumph]

Triumph, Andy is right... This thread was ruined by fighting.

Youre right Sam. Time to finally put the fool on ignore.

The bottom line is that Talib makes this pass defense much better. Even though both winning teams has less offensive yards and 1st downs than the losing Pats and Falcons, you still need quality Corners who can cover. Talib gives NE the luxury of letting him play single coverage so they can roll coverage over to an area of need.

 

[1%er]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my OP, I want to resign Talib for a number of reasons which I will highlight below,

1. He is very talented. Potentially a top 5 CB in the NFL when it comes to pure talent.
2. He did make a difference when on the field, not to the degree of some posts but he is a true #1 CB with size, athleticism and technique. Plus he does not fear getting beat.
3. He has a great swagger/confidence to him that seems to be contagious.
4. He embraced the Patriot way and could be very successful in NE.
5. I would like to get more value for a 4th round draft choice than just 26 quarters of football.

The purpose of my thread was to point out that I would understand if the Patriots did not over pay for Talib. I think Talib needs to realize that just a few months ago he was being unloaded by a non-playoff team and that his best shot to be a successful NFL player is in NE so he needs to take a deal that works for both parties. And if he doesn't see that we should move on.

 

[Patriot Missile]

All I know is Boldin was a non factor the few series Talib played. As soon as he went out things went south in a hurry. Dennard had an excellent game covering his side. To me Talib being able to use his size to jam his receiver at the the line of scrimmage is his biggest asset. It changes man to man coverages by disrupting the timing enabling safeties and a linebacker to concentrate on getting coverage on the TE's and the middle of the field and that extra second to decide to go over the top to help the CB.

Is he perfect? No, he gives up yards at times but his jams and his ability to be physically clean when a receiver try's to break out of their routs is what separates him from a average cornerback. I was hoping for this kind of play from Dowling but he can't stay healthy. Unfortunately my impression of Talib is the same.

Tough call on this one. Money should be a factor in this decision.

 

[upstater1]

Talib and Dennard on the field at the same time might make for the best CB combo the Patriots have had since Clayborn-Haynes.

Otis my man gave a lot to the team, but I don't see him as being as good as either of these guys. We never had anyone this good opposite Law. Not that either of these two is Ty Law.

 

[upstater1]

All I know is Boldin was a non factor the few series Talib played. As soon as he went out things went south in a hurry. Dennard had an excellent game covering his side. To me Talib being able to use his size to jam his receiver at the the line of scrimmage is his biggest asset. It changes man to man coverages by disrupting the timing enabling safeties and a linebacker to concentrate on getting coverage on the TE's and the middle of the field and that extra second to decide to go over the top to help the CB.

Is he perfect? No, he gives up yards at times but his jams and his ability to be physically clean when a receiver try's to break out of their routs is what separates him from a average cornerback. I was hoping for this kind of play from Dowling but he can't stay healthy. Unfortunately my impression of Talib is the same.

Tough call on this one. Money should be a factor in this decision.

Jamming those receivers wrecked multiple routes. You could actually see the Raven WRs running into each other and knocking each other down.

 

[Gumby]

All I know is Boldin was a non factor the few series Talib played. As soon as he went out things went south in a hurry. Dennard had an excellent game covering his side. To me Talib being able to use his size to jam his receiver at the the line of scrimmage is his biggest asset. It changes man to man coverages by disrupting the timing enabling safeties and a linebacker to concentrate on getting coverage on the TE's and the middle of the field and that extra second to decide to go over the top to help the CB.

Is he perfect? No, he gives up yards at times but his jams and his ability to be physically clean when a receiver try's to break out of their routs is what separates him from a average cornerback. I was hoping for this kind of play from Dowling but he can't stay healthy. Unfortunately my impression of Talib is the same.

Tough call on this one. Money should be a factor in this decision.

While I agree with the opinion on Talib; I have to pre-emptively correct your inaccuracy before someone else uses it to support a different opiniion.

The D did NOT go south in a hurry. It took until 3Q. Talib went down early in 1Q. BUT.... the only reason why is that Caldwell stubbornly stuck to his run on 1down, dont challenge downfield much strategy until he got into the clubhouse at half-time and someone beat him about the head& shoulders and said 'why aren't you attacking this'.

(Note: IMO that lack of OC adaptability on the fly in Baltimore means they will have a tough time vs SF. )

 

[eagle eye]

And we weren't really significantly better in those 26 quarters either.

We were significantly better against Anquain Boldin last Sunday while he was in.

 

[Sivy]

Contains Johnson twice, shuts down boldin until he gets hurt, but NOOO he dont help or nothing

 

[Patriot Missile]

While I agree with the opinion on Talib; I have to pre-emptively correct your inaccuracy before someone else uses it to support a different opiniion.

The D did NOT go south in a hurry. It took until 3Q. Talib went down early in 1Q. BUT.... the only reason why is that Caldwell stubbornly stuck to his run on 1down, dont challenge downfield much strategy until he got into the clubhouse at half-time and someone beat him about the head& shoulders and said 'why aren't you attacking this'.

(Note: IMO that lack of OC adaptability on the fly in Baltimore means they will have a tough time vs SF. )

You think Boldin breaks the jam consistently from the 3rd quarter on? Of course we'll never know because injured players don't play football. My guess is sure, they opened things up in the 2nd half and they are going to move the ball but not as successfully as they did had Talib been able contribute to the man to man. As far as Caldwell, there was nothing to attack.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Contains Johnson twice, shuts down boldin until he gets hurt, but NOOO he dont help or nothing

I believe Dennard played More against Johnson in the first game.

 

[Sivy]

I believe Dennard played More against Johnson in the first game.

I'm way to lazy to look up stats and facts unlike some folks around here. I'm usually to lazy to click "quote" or "reply"

but I understand why people are down playing Talib, they are trying to prepare themselves for the possiblity that he does not sign. Kind of like how we will see all kinds of post/threads about how they dont need Welker and he's washed up.

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my OP, I want to resign Talib for a number of reasons which I will highlight below,

1. He is very talented. Potentially a top 5 CB in the NFL when it comes to pure talent.
2. He did make a difference when on the field, not to the degree of some posts but he is a true #1 CB with size, athleticism and technique. Plus he does not fear getting beat.
3. He has a great swagger/confidence to him that seems to be contagious.
4. He embraced the Patriot way and could be very successful in NE.
5. I would like to get more value for a 4th round draft choice than just 26 quarters of football.

The purpose of my thread was to point out that I would understand if the Patriots did not over pay for Talib. I think Talib needs to realize that just a few months ago he was being unloaded by a non-playoff team and that his best shot to be a successful NFL player is in NE so he needs to take a deal that works for both parties. And if he doesn't see that we should move on.

I agree with that 100%. I think the Pats will put a limit on what they will spend to keep Talib, just like everyone else. If he wants to be a part of this team moving forward, he's got a place here. If someone wants to give him more money than the team's limit and money is more important to him, than we'll have to look to other options. I like Talib and hope it won't come to that, but it's too early to tell.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I am completely torn. I want both players back on this team but....

I've said on this board that I think when hes right, is a top 5 CB in the NFL. When he left the game, you saw Flacco start to connect downfield. Not saying Talib was the reason but because of his 1:1 cover ability, he does help. With that said, hes been hurt here. He has not been the top 5 CB he is capable.

For as great of a player he is, I am very down on WW. The drop in the SB I can live with. The one on Sunday....ug. With that said, I still want him on the team

You pay big money to players that come up big in big games.

Not sure either one of these players is worth big money at this point.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

What we saw was a nice turnaround in the secondary that showed what adequate safety play and a viable CB (Dennard) can do. Both of those guys are coming back, so those are positives.

We've heard for the last season+ now how "great" the safety class is going to be this year...so let's hope the draftniks were correct. Another safety pick will certainly help, not to mention the 2nd rd choice last year of Wilson, who looked like a rookie a lot, but also showed some nice things at times.

I think that Belichick will indeed go out and grab another CB in the mold of a "Bodden" or a "Talib," and that will be via free agency. Please don't ask "who" because history has shown that there are many mid-level players who aren't necessarily big names that can come in and contribute to the positive play of the defense. Bodden was one of them, we've seen others.

Dennard was another, and he was picked in the 7th round. While the track record for CB's hasn't been pretty lately, the possibility exists that another player can indeed be chosen this year.

There is also (still) the possibility of Dowling stepping up. Obviously that can't be banked on, but he is currently still a member of the team.

I'd personally sign Arrington again to play the star position in subs, as that's where he is most effective. I think that may be realistic. He can also provide starter outside capability in a pinch, and is familiar with the system here.

I'd also draft another player or two in the secondary, and choose to sign a FA who is in the 4 million dollar range.

Of course the easiest choice would be to re-sign Talib to an incentive laden deal worth about 5-6 million for the next upcoming season. More in the same vein as Bodden's "prove it" deal. He hasn't proven anything at all yet to be offered anything significant. Not on or off the field. I'd like him to stay, but he's hardly a "make or break" player.

We have to become more physical in the secondary, at all spots. McC and Gregory are not big hitters at all. If we can re-sign Talib to take one corner and assume Denard can play the other, that's a great start. Then when Dowling returns he can take Gregory's spot - he's our biggest hitter and probably our best overall db talent, if he can just stay healthy. Bring in Gregory for the nickel and Dowling plays corner in that grouping. Need to upgrade the physicality like we've been able to do at LB.

 

[mayoclinic]

I agree with that 100%. I think the Pats will put a limit on what they will spend to keep Talib, just like everyone else. If he wants to be a part of this team moving forward, he's got a place here. If someone wants to give him more money than the team's limit and money is more important to him, than we'll have to look to other options. I like Talib and hope it won't come to that, but it's too early to tell.

BTW, if the Pats are unable to sign Talib to an extension and he does hit FA and appears likely to go elsewhere, I think Keenan Lewis would be a very good alternative. He's also only 26, has nice size, and is more physical than DRC. I don't think he'll cost as much as Talib. I'd love to get both, but don't see any way we could afford it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

At any rate, I'd like to see the team move on from Arrington. Nice kid. Works hard but he's flatlined as a player.

 

[voluntarysaftey]

Is Talib as good as Ty Law was? Not close
Is Talib alot better than the CB he replaced? Yes

Will Talib get a big contract? Probably not. The Pats got him for almost nothing because of issues. He seems to love it here. I see both sides agreeing to a decent contract -- maybe 3 years, 18 million. We paid Bodden 5 mil a year and he wasn't anywhere as good as talib.

What we need:
A better safety
One more good; but doesnt have to be great, CB (I wouldn't trust that Dowling can magically stay healthy next year; if he does, it's a bonus)

Talib, a hopefully improved Denard, McCourty, one other good CB, and one other good Safety, and this secondary could be very good.

It would also help if we had a better pass rush. The reason we succeeded with Troy Brown at CB was because we had a dominant front 7 back then

 

[Patradomous]

And we weren't really significantly better in those 26 quarters either.

I beg your pardon. He made two plays in the 1st Q of sundays that I hadn't seen from a Pats corner all year.
Talib allowed you to play 1 on1 with Boldin confidentley.
He made the defense a lot better because that allowed other players to be better. It cetainley has to effect the opposing QB's confidence especially when the D can't blitz as much.

 

[letekro]

I beg your pardon. He made two plays in the 1st Q of sundays that I hadn't seen from a Pats corner all year.
Talib allowed you to play 1 on1 with Boldin confidentley.
He made the defense a lot better because that allowed other players to be better. It cetainley has to effect the opposing QB's confidence especially when the D can't blitz as much.

Agree completely. I'm not saying Talib is a shutdown type corner, but he is a guy that can minimize the damage if left 1 on 1, allowing the defense to be more aggressive. We haven't had a guy like that since, I don't know when.