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Misconception w/Talib

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by 1%er, Jan 21, 2013.

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  1. 1%er

    1%er Banned

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    Talib played in 26 of a possible 44 quarters of football since his acquisition during the bye week. I cannot think of a game in which he shutdown a receiver. Talib is being severally overvalued by fans. He came in and competed but his is not a $8M-10M a year player and he certainly is not more of a priority than Wes Welker.

    Keenan Lewis, Rodgers-Cromartie, Sean Smith would all provide the same factors as Talib.
     
  2. Sticky Caulk

    Sticky Caulk PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Unretiring Ellis Hobbs might have been an improvement over Arrington on the outside.

    Moving McCourty to safety did more to improve the pass defense than anything, imho.
     
  3. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Perhaps, but it's possible that Talib can be had cheaper than $8M-$10M, given his OTF problems and his injury history. Plus, since he's been here and apparently likes it, he's probably a bit more willing to take the discount than the others. And for what it's worth, I don't think DRC brings what Talib does.
     
  4. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And we weren't really significantly better in those 26 quarters either.
     
  5. PittPatriot

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    Well, if we do not bring him back then we must be relying on drafting DB help. Yikes.
     
  6. FCB02062

    FCB02062 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    As they always do, the pats will bring in a cavalcade of 30+ year old corners and safeties and basically throw sh#t at the wall and hope something sticks...they will not pay big $ for corners or safeties. ..
     
  7. 1%er

    1%er Banned

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    Agree I'd make the argument Dennard was a bigger factor overall
     
  8. PatriotDynasty_12

    PatriotDynasty_12 On the Game Day Roster

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    Really? This whole D was way more aggressive and more effective when he was playing. In the beginning of the season, our defensive backs were on pace to be one of the worst units of all time. They were getting burned left and right (Seattle game comes to mind) and as a result, Pats started the season 3-3. Once Talib came into the picture, we had a D that seemed to be good enough to win a championship with. You didn't see that? Really?
     
  9. mayoclinic

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    The FO will decide what dollar amount it places on Talib's services. His injury and off-field issues will certainly be a factor. Whether he is more or less than a priority than Welker is a moot point for us to debate; the FO will form their own opinion regarding the prioritization of FAs, and how far they are willing to go.

    As for what Talib provided, BB has repeatedly lauded him for his work ethic and professionalism, and shown confidence in him by giving him the assignment to shadow a top receiver in a way that he hasn't done since Ty Law. Talib's teammates have openly lauded him for his work ethic and professionalism, and for bringing an "attitude" to the secondary. And some of Dennard's progress may have been affected by having a more experienced CB like Talib as a model, though that's speculation. Certainly the secondary improved as a unit.

    Would someone like Sean Smith or Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie be as good as Talib? Maybe. We don't yet know if they'll be available or not. Smith is rumored to be a candidate for the franchise tag or for an extension, and Miami has plenty of cap space. I'm far from convinced that Rodgers-Cromartie would be as good as Talib. But regardless, any new CB would have to start from scratch, whereas Talib has the advantage that the Pats could build on continuity with the secondary.

    I don't know what the dollar limit or prioritization will work out to, but I think that keeping Talib is certainly fairly high on the team's wish list. The secondary has been a very sore spot for a long time, and this is the first glimmer of stability that we've had in a while.
     
  10. jnug

    jnug On the Game Day Roster

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    Talib is not a priority over getting a true outside/deep threat receiver for the offense. I don't think it reasonable to value Welker vs Talib as priorities as they are addressing different aspects of the team that have different overarching issues. It is now an offense oriented team that has committed to Gronk and Hernandez. Rightly or wrongly unless Wes is willing to work with the Pats on a contract the Pats may just not be able to keep him and Edelman and Lloyd now that the horse has already left the barn on Gronk and Hernandez. Lloyd certainly did not give the Pats what they needed and I would be happier to see the Pats off Lloyd if that was the path to the kind of guy that can actually add something to this offense.

    I don't think Talib is an $8M-$10M player either. At least in my opinion Talib did provide us with clarity with regard to the issue of whether our DB issues are scheme or talent. IMO they are talent first and foremost.

    Talib is the only guy that I saw this season that was athletic enough to play CB in such a manner that BB could move the other pieces around the board optimally. Talib also allowed the Pats to play defenses that they simply could not play without him.

    Talib was able to take one of the better opposing receivers and cover him all over the field. Even when Talib had Safety help he used that help better than the other CB's. Talib very quickly became the best CB the Pats had from the perspective of how he positioned himself relative to the Safety on his side of the field in some of the Pat's defenses. Very early on we would see Talib pinch off receivers between himself and the Safety so that the receiver was stuck right up against the sideline on one side, Talib himself on the other and the Safety positioned just beyond the receiver. I saw no other Pat's corner do that nearly as well nor to any degree that was meaningful.

    Dennard did come on later in the season. However the officials were allowing a good deal of hand checking in this post season. While the officials do tend to adopt more of a "let them play" posture in the post season, they really did allow much more hand checking than I thought they would. Kudos to him for taking what the officials were giving him but I would like to see how he does in coverage when he is not allowed to do that.

    Never the less, what I am saying is that to me, Talib only showed us how much we are giving up by not having enough big, physical, athletic CB's and having to many smallish CB's that the Receiver can just go right over. We don't need Talib specifically. We need a couple CB's athletic enough and big enough to play like Talib.

    If the Pats don't sign Talib...that could be fine. He has health issues to go along with some of his other issues. If they don't they do need to recognize what a Talib-like corner does for this defense and they need to bring in more of them to supplement BB's propensity to constantly draft these cookie cutter DB's.....guys that just cannot go up and challenge receivers athletically without being flagged.
     
  11. Silver Blue&Red

    Silver Blue&Red In the Starting Line-Up

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    Yes. The eye test says they play better when he is on the field. They improved when he was aquired. There seemed to be a serious decline when he was out yesterday. IMO. Purely conjecture tho :confused2::eat2:
     
  12. Skeeter712

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    Talib takes away the deep ball, and also did a pretty good job of containing Andre Johnson in both Houston games.

    There isn't a way to convince me that the pass D was the same after Talib left yesterday. Almost night and day difference.
     
  13. AndyJohnson

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    Your memeory is faulty.
    We were 6-3 without Talib, not 3-3.
    Talib played vs:
    Indy (and played poorly)
    Jets
    Miaimi first game
    Houston
    SF
    and the Houston playoff game

    I know that everyone wanted to believe he was making a huge difference, but the reality doesn't match the perception
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Talib turns back for the ball. So does Dennard.

    Arrington, McCourty and Joe Blow Patriot dont know how to do that.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I cannot believe that people think Talib didnt make a huge difference for the better.

    Aqib Talib has provided missing piece in New England Patriots secondary | NOLA.com
     
  16. JMarr

    JMarr In the Starting Line-Up

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    BB doesn't talk the way he did about Talib unless the guy is doing something seriously right. It was the trickle down affect that's been talked about here a lot since the Pats acquired Talib. Makes the entire defense exponentially better. Dennard's emergence as a shutdown corner in his rookie year was a big surprise as well. We need both these guys on the field and Arrington in the slot. No need to overthink it. Change nothing (except for bringing in a LaRon Landry-type SS to lay some wood) and you have a top five defense next year.
     
  17. supafly

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    What we saw was a nice turnaround in the secondary that showed what adequate safety play and a viable CB (Dennard) can do. Both of those guys are coming back, so those are positives.

    We've heard for the last season+ now how "great" the safety class is going to be this year...so let's hope the draftniks were correct. Another safety pick will certainly help, not to mention the 2nd rd choice last year of Wilson, who looked like a rookie a lot, but also showed some nice things at times.

    I think that Belichick will indeed go out and grab another CB in the mold of a "Bodden" or a "Talib," and that will be via free agency. Please don't ask "who" because history has shown that there are many mid-level players who aren't necessarily big names that can come in and contribute to the positive play of the defense. Bodden was one of them, we've seen others.

    Dennard was another, and he was picked in the 7th round. While the track record for CB's hasn't been pretty lately, the possibility exists that another player can indeed be chosen this year.

    There is also (still) the possibility of Dowling stepping up. Obviously that can't be banked on, but he is currently still a member of the team.

    I'd personally sign Arrington again to play the star position in subs, as that's where he is most effective. I think that may be realistic. He can also provide starter outside capability in a pinch, and is familiar with the system here.

    I'd also draft another player or two in the secondary, and choose to sign a FA who is in the 4 million dollar range.

    Of course the easiest choice would be to re-sign Talib to an incentive laden deal worth about 5-6 million for the next upcoming season. More in the same vein as Bodden's "prove it" deal. He hasn't proven anything at all yet to be offered anything significant. Not on or off the field. I'd like him to stay, but he's hardly a "make or break" player.
     
  18. AndyJohnson

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  19. supafly

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    There are many variable to this equation, Triumph.

    One is the improved safety play from McCourty, another is getting Chung out of there. There's also the fact that Gregory became more familiar with the system as the year moved on.

    Then there is the move of Arrington back to the slot, where he is much better.

    Then there's the move where Dennard became a starter, which obviously helped.

    So, my question to you is this: was it the scheme, or was it all Talib's amazing talents and stats? (2 passes defended as of last week's game)

    Personally, I think that the moves mentioned above made a lot more difference than Aqib Talib, who didn't even play nearly as much as anyone wants to admit.

    Will the secondary be as good without Talib in there? Probably not, but we'll still have all of the above mentioned moves to bank on, and they very well may get another viable, physical CB to play in the late season man coverage scheme.

    Is he worth what he thinks he is? No way. We're talking about a player who by all accounts was going to be outright cut this season by G.Schiano in Tampa Bay. For all we know, Belichick may have even known that and decided that it was worth it just due to the fact that he'd never make it to our waiver priority.

    Either way, Talib's worth was nowhere near what people are claiming, and his injuries and late season absence haven't done much to prove any different to me.

    Maybe Belichick feels differently and offers him enough to stay, but I am having my doubts. One thing we can take from this is that the secondary shouldn't be anywhere near as bad as they were with McCourty/Arrington as the outside CB's with Moore in the slot, and Chung/Wilson as the safeties.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I cannot believe there is a new NFL where offense rules.
     
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