Likely Receiving core: What do you think?

[Deus Irae]

They were also the third-highest-scoring team in NFL history. And they were playing without their top receiving threat in that particular game. You don't think your standards are a little high?

1.) Not my standards. You were responding to B2M. I was just trying to guess at his point.

2.) B2M specifically mentioned playoffs, not regular season.

3.) 13,17,21 and 14 points of offense in their last 4 playoff losses. I think it's fair of people to think that's not good enough. What the reasons were, and what the solutions would be, are where I'd start disagreeing with people.

 

[Archeryaddict12]

They scored 13 points in a loss to the Ravens. I'd guess B2M doesn't consider that "pretty well".

And how well did welker do if he is so great? Welker isn't the dependent guy you need. Gronk is. I bet if welker was out and gronk was in we would have faired better in points scored. And Hernandez would have been awesome.

 

[Deus Irae]

So in that scenario, the Pats would spent their 1st, 2nd and 3rd round (Sanders) picks on WRs? Has that ever happened in the history of the NFL draft.

Don't know, don't care. Positions of need are positions of need.

Kindly stay out of the Foxboro war room. You and BradytoMoss are like Statler and Waldorf hanging out in the balcony on the Muppett Show.

I've been ahead of the WR problem curve around here since 2009, but your opinion will be given the heft it deserves.

 

[Deus Irae]

And how well did welker do if he is so great? Welker isn't the dependent guy you need. Gronk is. I bet if welker was out and gronk was in we would have faired better in points scored. And Hernandez would have been awesome.

I'm not sure why you brought Welker up, but he's pretty clearly been doing his job for the most part, even in the losses. He's only been held under 100 yards in 1 of the 4 games against the SB champs over the past two seasons. In the 4 losses against those eventual SB champions, Welker had 32 catches for 455 yards, or an average of 8 catches and 113.75 yards.

BTW, in the 2011 regular season, the Giants beat the Patriots with Welker (9 catches for 136 yards), Gronk (8 catches for 101 yards) and Hernandez (4 catches for 35 yards) all on the field. In the 2012 regular season, the Ravens beat the Patriots with both Gronk (2 catches for 21 yards) and Welker (8 catches for 142 yards) on the field.

 

[mgteich]

SLOT RECEIVERS
Slot receivers is critical to our offense. We now have a starting slot receiver (Amendola) and a backup slot receiver (Edelman). We also have at least 2 TE's who can catch balls in the slot.
==========
OTHER RECEIVERS
Believe it or not, most receptions by wide receivers will not be made in the slot. Our lineup outside is Sanders (maybe), Jones and Jenkins. Sure we will get some outside receptions from Edelman, Amendola, running backs and tight ends. BUT WE STILL NEED OUTSIDE RECEIVERS.

I agree with DI. If this were my lineup at the time of the draft, I would draft two wide receivers by the end of the second round, the end of the third at the latest.

BOTTOM LINE
Even if you really like Sanders, he only has a one year contract. We need to develop a wide receiver or two. And, of course, let Josh choose the draftee receivers.

Didn't you hear a deep threat/outside receiver is overrated?

We have 2 slot guys that are always injured in Edelman and Amendola. As much as people want to make them out to be outside receivers they've shown nothing but a few flashes out there.

If we get Sanders it would be a good addition but only as our #2 outside guy or wr #3 in our offense. We still need a true number 1 Demaryius Thomas type if we don't want to get shut down the same way we always do in the playoffs.

 

[VrabelJr]

They still need to acquire a WR in this upcoming draft, preferably in the first three rounds.

We moved a 3rd rounder for Emmanuel Sanders for 1 year and you think BB is content with the WRs in the first 3 rounds this year? I don't think we'll be taking a WR until late.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

I'd take that before "core."

Now, here's a more better core (damn i love sayin' more better. it never gets old)
Sex Type Thing, Wicked Garden, & Plush. Seminal Grunge release in the monster year of 1992.

 

[tonyto3690]

I'd be interested to hear your explanation as to drafting a player who is a value proposition or in a position of need is a waste of a pick. No roster is complete. Almost every position outside of the elite in the NFL can be upgraded.

Obviously no roster is perfect. But in the big scheme of things wr is not that important. We don't need to waste money on wrs when we are trying to transition into a run first team, have Tom Brady, and the number three highest scorin offense ever.

1. Sanders isn't currently a Patriot.

2. Neither is Lloyd.

Right now, the only starting caliber WR currently on the roster is Welker's injury-prone replacement. Should Sanders sign, he'd be an ideal option at the Y. Lloyd is best served in the Branch role if brought back and offers 0 YAC. That leaves the team with Jenkins and Jones battling it out for the last position, the X. Are you telling me you're comfortable with that? Because I'm not. That still looks like an offense that wouldn't force the defense to respect multiple options outside the hashes.

I was responding to someone saying even of we get lloyd and sanders we need to draft a wr. Reading comprehension is nice.

For those questioning tony's logic on this issue:



Pretty helpful, I think.

You are obsessed. But beyond that I don't see the issue. We are building our franchise around our two tight ends. Throwing a ton of money on guys after welker is just incredibly stupid.

Sorry guys, this isn't madden. You can't have gronk, henandez, Brady, ap, Calvin, Andre, fitzgerald, a good ol, and a defense. There are limitations and blowing a ton of money on wr is just stupid.

LOok how much gOod it did the colts. That's proof enough.

 

[JackBauer]

We moved a 3rd rounder for Emmanuel Sanders for 1 year and you think BB is content with the WRs in the first 3 rounds this year? I don't think we'll be taking a WR until late.

Sure do, and it seems I'm hardly alone in that assessment. Particularly if you believe that wide receivers take longer to develop and assess this draft as being particularly stocked with quality receiving prospects.

 

[Nunchucks]

I don't see why people believe the Patriots would be able to draft a WR to start on the outside.

No rookie WR is coming into the Patriots system and making any kind of impact, chances are they wouldn't make an impact until year 3. That means that the Tom Brady window is pretty much closed by the time this guy is ready to contribute.

They will bolster the side of the ball that needs it, which is the awful defense. They need better players in the secondary and to rush the passer, it was painfully obvious that depth was an issue in both those areas.

 

[JackBauer]

You are obsessed. But beyond that I don't see the issue. We are building our franchise around our two tight ends. Throwing a ton of money on guys after welker is just incredibly stupid.

Sorry guys, this isn't madden. You can't have gronk, henandez, Brady, ap, Calvin, Andre, fitzgerald, a good ol, and a defense. There are limitations and blowing a ton of money on wr is just stupid.

LOok how much gOod it did the colts. That's proof enough.

How am I obsessed? Because I remember something you previously wrote on the topic?

Of course you don't see the issue. You'd be comfortable trotting that dumpster fire of a receiving corps out on opening day; why should we expect you to have changed your tune now?

By the way, don't really see anyone talking about blowing tons of money on the WR position. And I think it goes without saying that improving the WR corps and improving the defense are not mutually exclusive activities.

 

[Nunchucks]

Patriots will run a lot of 3 TE sets, using Hernandez as a flex guy into the slot. Most times, the Patriots will have 1-2 WRs on the field, I doubt we will see a lot of 3 WR sets in the coming year (considering Hernandez as a TE). This takes advantage of mismatches all over the place. If teams go nickel, the Patriots can run the ball with 2 big TEs and Hernandez blocking or they flex Hernandez out to the slot and take advantage of the height mismatch....

Adding another WR does not add tot he flexibility of the offense, it just takes up a roster spot for somebody that will not contribute....The Patriots are all about "what can you do for the team right now"

 

[JackBauer]

No rookie WR is coming into the Patriots system and making any kind of impact, chances are they wouldn't make an impact until year 3.

You keep saying this, but it just isn't true.

 

[Nunchucks]

You keep saying this, but it just isn't true.

You keep on saying that it isn't true, yet the facts bear it out.

Do not worry, we will see what happens on draft day. To be honest, it is way more fun to see them draft a WR in round 1 that is a dynamic player, I would love to see it. However, I've seen this movie before, and it plays out with a DB, DL, and an OL.

 

[JackBauer]

You keep on saying that it isn't true, yet the facts bear it out.

No, they really don't.

Do not worry, we will see what happens on draft day. To be honest, it is way more fun to see them draft a WR in round 1 that is a dynamic player, I would love to see it. However, I've seen this movie before, and it plays out with a DB, DL, and an OL.

Doesn't need to be round 1. But they do need another receiver, a DE, a CB, and an interior lineman. Perhaps a fourth linebacker if the stars align. I'm not particularly wedded to when/where any of these players are acquired, just that they are acquired.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I don't see why people believe the Patriots would be able to draft a WR to start on the outside.

No rookie WR is coming into the Patriots system and making any kind of impact, chances are they wouldn't make an impact until year 3. That means that the Tom Brady window is pretty much closed by the time this guy is ready to contribute.

They will bolster the side of the ball that needs it, which is the awful defense. They need better players in the secondary and to rush the passer, it was painfully obvious that depth was an issue in both those areas.

The problem with that thinking is in the end you will never get a WR. Are we going to keep relying on JAGS off the street to try and fix an offense that is anemic in big games against good defenses. I don't think anyone is going to argue that we don't need to improve our defense, but we obviously have issues on the offensive side of the ball too.

I also disagree with the view that a rookie can't contribute early on. The reason we haven't had rookie WRs contribute early over the last few years is simply because they are either lower round picks or we have gotten cute with the pick. Brandon Tate was coming off a major knee injury so he never really had a chance of making an impact year 1. Taylor Price was a raw WR from a running offense that pretty much needed to learn the position from scratch. Since Bethel Johnson in 2003, Chad Jackson is the only WR the Pats have drafted that we should have had any expectation of contributing right away. He was a complete bust but that happens sometimes. Now if the Pats had of actually used high picks of near pro ready WRs then you may be able to make that argument, but the sample size isn't nearly significant enough to say that a rookie WR can't contribute. Especially with NFL offenses shifting more towards college offenses and spreading the field.

 

[Nunchucks]

No, they really don't.



Doesn't need to be round 1. But they do need another receiver, a DE, a CB, and an interior lineman. Perhaps a fourth linebacker if the stars align. I'm not particularly wedded to when/where any of these players are acquired, just that they are acquired.

How many WRs have the Patriots drafted in the last 10 years and how many managed to make any impact? Givens and Branch. How many FA receivers have they brought in that have managed to add value? Welker and Moss with a sprinkling of Gaffney and Stallworth.

But the % of success is extremely low. I do not know why you think they will somehow manage to find a WR in this draft that can beat out Amendola, Sanders, and Edelmen and have an impact on the offense. That doesn't include that this WR would have to beat our players with experience in the system Ebert, Austin, and that other guy...or Donald Jones, who they liked enough to sign fairly early on...or a veteran with moderate success like Michael Jenkins...Considering the place the team is at with Tom Brady, the money invested in the TEs, the commitment to a different kind of offense. I just don't see them using a roster spot on a WR that they draft.

 

[Mack Herron]

How many WRs have the Patriots drafted in the last 10 years and how many managed to make any impact? Givens and Branch. How many FA receivers have they brought in that have managed to add value? Welker and Moss with a sprinkling of Gaffney and Stallworth.

But the % of success is extremely low. I do not know why you think they will somehow manage to find a WR in this draft that can beat out Amendola, Sanders, and Edelmen and have an impact on the offense. That doesn't include that this WR would have to beat our players with experience in the system Ebert, Austin, and that other guy...or Donald Jones, who they liked enough to sign fairly early on...or a veteran with moderate success like Michael Jenkins...Considering the place the team is at with Tom Brady, the money invested in the TEs, the commitment to a different kind of offense. I just don't see them using a roster spot on a WR that they draft.

Good points, but I look at it differently. To leverage the skills of our most valuable asset we need talented receivers. The low success rate means that we need to increase not decrease the pool from which that talent will emerge. The draft is the most economical way to do that.

 

[Kontradiction]

I was responding to someone saying even of we get lloyd and sanders we need to draft a wr. Reading comprehension is nice.

Even with Sanders and a Lloyd resigning, WR is still very much a need.

...so, as you said, reading comprehension is nice. Now, do you have any semblence of a counter point to my response to you or are we finished here?

 

[JackBauer]

How many WRs have the Patriots drafted in the last 10 years and how many managed to make any impact? Givens and Branch. How many FA receivers have they brought in that have managed to add value? Welker and Moss with a sprinkling of Gaffney and Stallworth.

Absent context like a.) how many receivers were drafted and b.) where they were drafted, this means absolutely nothing. Particularly as the draft is concerned, where past performance isn't a great predictor of future results. And, no, I don't think that bringing in a slew of over-the-hill Geritol types in FA who ended up flaming out is particularly compelling evidence that new additions via the draft cannot add value in the short run.

But the % of success is extremely low. I do not know why you think they will somehow manage to find a WR in this draft that can beat out Amendola, Sanders, and Edelmen and have an impact on the offense.

I don't expect them to beat out Amendola or Sanders. Beating out Edelman, on the other hand, should be pretty easy if they get the right guy.

That doesn't include that this WR would have to beat our players with experience in the system Ebert, Austin, and that other guy...or Donald Jones, who they liked enough to sign fairly early on...or a veteran with moderate success like Michael Jenkins...Considering the place the team is at with Tom Brady, the money invested in the TEs, the commitment to a different kind of offense. I just don't see them using a roster spot on a WR that they draft.

You're right. If they don't think they can draft someone who can beat out the scrubs and retreads you listed, they should definitely consider going another direction.