Lee Smith and Alge Crumpler.

[Oswlek]

Since Lee has done it...


is long snapping a hard talent to maintain or does it just necessitate 1-2 hours of practice regularly???



He is a TE to he must learn to become a blocking TE

I don't foresee this multitasking troublesome is it?

Not in a vacuum. But having your LS also filling another position creates problems with practices. And expecting a rookie to learn the offense while also spending a couple hours a day with the ST group is a bit much.

 

[part-timer]

I think the perfect scenario would be to keep 4 TEs and have Smith learn nothing but long snapping this summer. During the fall have him learn at the side of Crump much like a backup QB(clipboard and all!)about blocking in the NFL. Crump's value is an easy statistic to measure....what % of the plays was he on the field for last season?? Dont you think BB values that?? His losing a step and diminished catching skills will affect that %. Bravo on the Maneri reference.

Its realy refreshing to hear a logical reasoning opinion on the topic. Thank you. I agree with smith training as a back up LS but would be hesitant at makeing him a full time LS if he were to log any time at TE because of the possibility of injury, and being without another option. I have full confidence in the Pats training staff to mentor and support the new rookie,Smith, and with the success of the 2nd year TE's the insurance of the vet is less important. I do believe BB appreciates Crumps past contributions but he is the first one to release a player at the start of decline. Hasn't he been quoted as stateing it is better to release a player one year early than one year too late? And I have been curious about the reasoning of the addition of Maneri and spent some time following him and why. He is not quite big enough for OT and a little tall for OG, but to fill the possition of an extra lineman such as a "BLOCKING TE" at 6'6" 265lb haveing already played TE in college he seem's to be a good match. A declaired eligible extra lineman in a heave run set who can catch?

Correction Maneri is listed at 290 on the Pats roster.

 

[Oswlek]

Its realy refreshing to hear a logical reasoning opinion on the topic. Thank you. I agree with smith training as a back up LS but would be hesitant at makeing him a full time LS if he were to log any time at TE because of the possibility of injury, and being without another option. I have full confidence in the Pats training staff to mentor and support the new rookie,Smith, and with the success of the 2nd year TE's the insurance of the vet is less important. I do believe BB appreciates Crumps past contributions but he is the first one to release a player at the start of decline. Hasn't he been quoted as stateing it is better to release a player one year early than one year too late? And I have been curious about the reasoning of the addition of Maneri and spent some time following him and why. He is not quite big enough for OT and a little tall for OG, but to fill the possition of an extra lineman such as a "BLOCKING TE" at 6'6" 265lb haveing already played TE in college he seem's to be a good match. A declaired eligible extra lineman in a heave run set who can catch?

What Jeff said was precisely what I said in my first post. Then it was ludicrous, now it is refreshing?

Maneri weighs a hell of a lot more than 265 lbs. When he came to NE last year he was ~295 and he's probably over 300 now.

 

[Haley]

Its realy refreshing to hear a logical reasoning opinion on the topic. Thank you. I agree with smith training as a back up LS but would be hesitant at makeing him a full time LS if he were to log any time at TE because of the possibility of injury, and being without another option. I have full confidence in the Pats training staff to mentor and support the new rookie,Smith, and with the success of the 2nd year TE's the insurance of the vet is less important. I do believe BB appreciates Crumps past contributions but he is the first one to release a player at the start of decline. Hasn't he been quoted as stateing it is better to release a player one year early than one year too late? And I have been curious about the reasoning of the addition of Maneri and spent some time following him and why. He is not quite big enough for OT and a little tall for OG, but to fill the possition of an extra lineman such as a "BLOCKING TE" at 6'6" 265lb haveing already played TE in college he seem's to be a good match. A declaired eligible extra lineman in a heave run set who can catch?

Question for you:
Do you believe a blocking tight end is an invalid position in pro football? I'm trying to understand if this is in fact your argument.

 

[part-timer]

What Jeff said was precisely what I said in my first post. Then it was ludicrous, now it is refreshing?

Maneri weighs a hell of a lot more than 265 lbs. When he came to NE last year he was ~295 and he's probably over 300 now.

Oswlek: if so it was over looked. Unfortunately I have dealt with a Pack atack because of an infatuation with Crumpler. Obviously we are on opisite end of the value of Crumpler but on the bright side we are on the same side wanting the best decisions to be made for the benifit of the Pats. I suppose we could agree to disagree.

 

[Shelterdog]

Not in a vacuum. But having your LS also filling another position creates problems with practices. And expecting a rookie to learn the offense while also spending a couple hours a day with the ST group is a bit much.

One issue is that even if your long snapper could play another position, you don't want to risk it because a hurt long snapper is catastrophic for the kicking game.

Lee Smith will either be a TE and the second string long snapper or conceviably a long snapper who only plays TE in extreme emergencies-he won't be active at both long snapper and TE.

 

[Oswlek]

Oswlek: if so it was over looked. Unfortunately I have dealt with a Pack atack because of an infatuation with Crumpler. Obviously we are on opisite end of the value of Crumpler but on the bright side we are on the same side wanting the best decisions to be made for the benifit of the Pats. I suppose we could agree to disagree.

Fair enough. As much as BB loves Crumpler, I agree with you that his time in NE is short. I don't see him being re-upped after 2011.

But I do think you underestimate his value on the line. He really does kick the crap out of guys in a way few TEs do, which I find admirable because he's fully embraced the dirty side of the job after spending years as his team's top target. I've tried tracking it down but can't find it on youtube or on NFL.com, but remember Benny's back-breaking drive at the end of the Minny game? Every run was behind Crumpler. Every single one. And he blew his man up every time. It was very impressive.

I also think Crumpler is a better receiver than the stats indicate. He just isn't nearly as good as Gronk or Hernandez so his ability to knock guys over provides more value to this team.

 

[part-timer]

Question for you:
Do you believe a blocking tight end is an invalid position in pro football? I'm trying to understand if this is in fact your argument.

Good question. I put it in the same catigory as a blocking fullback, which has become used less and less, usualy filled by an OG or even a OLB. BB has done this. A "blocking TE could be filled by an extra OT such as Maneri or even an OLB such as when Varable did so. To use up a roster spot for a limited use player can be destructive.

 

[Oswlek]

Good question. I put it in the same catigory as a blocking fullback, which has become used less and less, usualy filled by an OG or even a OLB. BB has done this. A "blocking TE could be filled by an extra OT such as Maneri or even an OLB such as when Varable did so. To use up a roster spot for a limited use player can be destructive.

A couple things.

1) The drafting of Smith when NE already has two solid blocking TEs indicates to me that the "blocking" TE is diminishing in value. Combined with NE's clear emphasis on improving the run game, I could make the case that the opposite is happening.

2) Every time NE goes through a season where they are forced to do what you describe (bringing in a backup OL as a blocking TE), BB goes out and signs a stellar blocker as one of the very first moves in FA. Again, that makes me think BB values the position greatly.

 

[Haley]

Good question. I put it in the same catigory as a blocking fullback, which has become used less and less, usualy filled by an OG or even a OLB. BB has done this. A "blocking TE could be filled by an extra OT such as Maneri or even an OLB such as when Varable did so. To use up a roster spot for a limited use player can be destructive.

Point taken, although I am not sure limited use would apply to Alge, since he does catch passes on occasion even if the rate has dropped off significantly from how he was used on other teams. Just the fact that he can catch requires some level of coverage and can create a mismatch.

I would suggest to you that where you see a failure in Alge for his number of receptions dropping off, we read that as Alge being used in a way that plays to his strengths while also playing to the strengths of the receiving TEs on the team, letting them all do what they do best. We see someone who is a team player and not a "ball hog" but will happily play his role in whatever he is asked to do. That being said, I can see how it can be read either way depending on what you choose to focus on. But that is my opinion on the subject. I respect your right to take another view.

I agree with those who have said that with Lee as a long snapper we can have the best of all worlds and likely keep both these guys on the roster. In my opinion this is a great option since it will give the new blood and chance to learn from an experienced player like Alge. I don't think there really exists any rivalry between the two of them, particularly since Alge doesn't have that many years left. Hopefully there will instead exist a mentoring relationship.

 

[part-timer]

A couple things.

1) The drafting of Smith when NE already has two solid blocking TEs indicates to me that the "blocking" TE is diminishing in value. Combined with NE's clear emphasis on improving the run game, I could make the case that the opposite is happening.

I see Smith (a blocking TE with soft hands) as an upgrade to replace a Blocking TE on the way out.

2) Every time NE goes through a season where they are forced to do what you describe (bringing in a backup OL as a blocking TE), BB goes out and signs a stellar blocker as one of the very first moves in FA. Again, that makes me think BB values the position greatly.

Last years OL was in shambles with the next man up being the 4th in line. Mankins hold out, Neil hurt, Kaczur hurt, Connolly in, who's next. Any additional help in blocking was needed. This year the OL situation is much better. With Soldier,Mankins Koppen,Cannon,Vollmer and back ups Connolly, Kaczur and all we should be much better off and in less need for blocking help. We do have a good TE (Gronkowski) who can block and a rookie to be groomed in line.

 

[VJCPatriot]

It's obvious that BB values the TE position. Just look at BB's draft history concerning tight ends.

2000 Stachelski
2001 Holloway and Love
2002 Graham
2003 Nead
2004 Watson
2005 Stokes
2006 Thomas, Mills
2010 Gronkowski, Hernandez
2011 Smith

2007-2009 marked an unusual drought of tight end picks for the Patriots. Although Watson was the starter in that time period, the lack of TE picks is rather unusual. Overall BB has selected 12 tight ends in 12 years. Without a doubt he values the tight end position very highly.

The nature of the tight end position is unique in that it's a hybrid position. A TE is expected to block as well as to go out on patterns to receive catches. Considering that a TE is by definition a dual responsibility position, a good TE should have skills in both areas.

But individuals have different strengths. The TE who is adept at both areas is rare, that would be Gronkowski. There are TEs who specialize more in the passing game, that would be Hernandez, and there are TEs who are adept at blocking, that would be Crumpler and hopefully Smith.

I really don't see where the problem lies in carrying specialist tight ends with different strengths and weaknesses. The TE position is one of the most flexible positions on offense, particularly the way that BB employs them.

And now that BB has very obviously signaled the Pats offensive transition to the power running game by drafting Two RBs, Two OL, and a Run-block first TE, it's logical to reason that good blocking TEs will be more valuable than ever for the Pats offense in 2011.

 

[Oswlek]

Last years OL was in shambles with the next man up being the 4th in line. Mankins hold out, Neil hurt, Kaczur hurt, Connolly in, who's next. Any additional help in blocking was needed. This year the OL situation is much better. With Soldier,Mankins Koppen,Cannon,Vollmer and back ups Connolly, Kaczur and all we should be much better off and in less need for blocking help. We do have a good TE (Gronkowski) who can block and a rookie to be groomed in line.

I'm not sure I'd go that far just yet. Last year there were a lot of issues at Mankins' spot, but the team had 4 of 5 starters at all times.

This year, it is possible to have a rookie at LT, a rookie at RG and Connolly or some other midling playing at LG. Having only two remaining starters, with one of them being a guy I think needs replacing (Koppen) doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. It could all work out, but I'm certainly in no hurry to dump Alge just yet.

 

[Oswlek]

Point taken, although I am not sure limited use would apply to Alge, since he does catch passes on occasion even if the rate has dropped off significantly from how he was used on other teams. Just the fact that he can catch requires some level of coverage and can create a mismatch.

I would suggest to you that where you see a failure in Alge for his number of receptions dropping off, we read that as Alge being used in a way that plays to his strengths while also playing to the strengths of the receiving TEs on the team, letting them all do what they do best. We see someone who is a team player and not a "ball hog" but will happily play his role in whatever he is asked to do. That being said, I can see how it can be read either way depending on what you choose to focus on. But that is my opinion on the subject. I respect your right to take another view.

I agree with those who have said that with Lee as a long snapper we can have the best of all worlds and likely keep both these guys on the roster. In my opinion this is a great option since it will give the new blood and chance to learn from an experienced player like Alge. I don't think there really exists any rivalry between the two of them, particularly since Alge doesn't have that many years left. Hopefully there will instead exist a mentoring relationship.

You're too respectful. I'm pretty sure somewhere in Ian's guidelines it references the need for every post to have a thinly veiled insult of some sort.

 

[Haley]

You're too respectful. I'm pretty sure somewhere in Ian's guidelines it references the need for every post to have a thinly veiled insult of some sort.

I apologize, I'll try and work on that. Oh dang .... that didn't help the cause did it.

:singing:

 

[VJCPatriot]

While we're on the topic of Lee Smith, here's a recent article on him and how he ended up at Marshall. I'll agree with the premise. Smith needs to contribute on special teams to stick. His ability to longsnap might be the key to justifying a roster spot.
patriots - Marshall Plan: Patriots add a 'throwback' tight end in Lee Smith - WEEI | Christopher Price

 

[NEGoldenAge]

2007-2009 marked an unusual drought of tight end picks for the Patriots. Although Watson was the starter in that time period, the lack of TE picks is rather unusual. Overall BB has selected 12 tight ends in 12 years. Without a doubt he values the tight end position very highly.

I believe a huge factor in the drought of TEs drafted from 07-09 was due to the Pats running a spread offense. 2010 marked the end of the spread offense in NE and was reflected in that years draft.

 

[Off The Grid]

Considering how effusive the praise of Crumpler has been - from BB to Gronk to Brady, Alge spent the last year ducking all the compliments hurled in his direction - the fact that Crumpler was made a captain almost immediately and how often even the idiot announcers point out key blocks by the guy, Crumpler's value is clear as day to anyone who followed the team last year.

~ It's amazing that someone could watch a full season of Crump without recognizing how devastating of a blocker he is.

~ Why people are trying to convince someone who argues so vehemently against such an obvious fact is puzzling.

~ Observant Pats fans value and enjoy watching Crump pancake people on a regular basis.

5 STARS, baby!! :rocker:

 

[DaBruinz]

If you reread the post instead of getting defensive and acusatory you will see a number of reasons Crumpler will not make the team, so let me lay it out for you:
Gronkowski in 2010:
6'6" 265lb
42 catches 546 yds. 10 td's as a rookie starting behind Crumpler.
Hernandez in 2010:
6'1" 245 lb
45 catches 563 yds, 6td's as a rookie starting behind Crumpler.
Lee Smith in 2010:
6'6" 266 lb.
38 catches 358 yrds considered one of the best blocking TE's in the draft with soft hands.
Crumpler in 2010:
6'2" 275 lbs.
6 catches for 52 yds. 28 of which came on one play. 4 td's. started 10 game's played in 16.
Will be 34 yr. old this season, comeing off sholder surgery, and has a total cap hit of 3 million much more than all the others combined.

This was your opinion of playing extreamly well, the rookies barried him, and Smith will do the same. Your right he started 10 games and played in 16 and had the most oppurtunity to succede but could not. So he must stay because you say so or must go because the stats and the facts say it is time.

I read your post. You clearly didn't read mine. There was nothing "accusatory" about it. All I did was question your reasoning. And it leaves a huge amount to be desired (as does your spelling.)

The Patriots had their 1st 1000 yard rusher since Corey Dillion in 2004. And it's in part to the superb blocking by Crumpler. You also seemed to have missed that, for the first time since Corey Dillon, the Pats had a RB scored more than 10 TDs in a single season. Again, in part to Crumpler.

Now, for the shoulder surgery, you do realize he played through the injury, last year, yes??? That should tell you something right there. Either the man has amazing pain tolerance or the surgery was minor.

The other thing you seem to have over-looked is Crumpler's leadership. That was HUGE. Or did you miss him being made one of the Captains last year??? Can you show me the stats that reflect Crumpler's leadership on the field and in the locker-room?

Finally, do you really think that the Pats will cut Crumpler to save just under $2M?? Especially when he was the 3rd best blocking TE in the league and helped the Pats in the running game and in the passing game (with his blocking)??

Sorry, but your argument holds about as much water as a spaghetti strainer.

 

[DaBruinz]

Do the work , show the numbers to support your claims untill you do it is only your own opinion. I respect the players history but as of now he can be charecterized as old, overwieght, slow, injured,overpayed, and overrated, being replaced by two exceptional second year players and one rookie with a high threshhold.
Crump had a great career but the operative word is had. Show what he has done lately.

In the year prior to Crumpler joining the team, the Pats RBs averaged 4.29 YPC. Last year, the Pats RBs averaged 4.53 YPC. (note: that is for ONLY RBS).

If you are going to play the injury card for Crumpler, you also need to play it for Hernandez, who sucks as a blocker. And Hernandez had a hip injury which is much tougher to come back from.

As for how Crumpler is characterized, claiming he's over-weight is BS on your part. As is the claim that he's over-payed and over-rated. Those are your opinions with no actual basis in fact.