Lee Smith and Alge Crumpler.

[Sciz]

Are you incapable of doing your own research? I have layed out available facts that support my claims and expect you to do the same.

No. You've spewed a few completely irrelevant facts. When judging Crumpler, catches and yards are completely irrelevant. They support the fact that he's not a good receiving tight end any more. That's a completely different point than claiming that he sucks.

And I'm still waiting for the answer to this:

How about you prove that he's NOT an elite blocker?

 

[Deus Irae]

Are you incapable of doing your own research? I have layed out available facts that support my claims and expect you to do the same. The problem for you is you will not find any recent lists of top TE's with his name on it, which is what you need . I have yet to find any published rateings that list Crumpler as an elite or even top TE. In fact most lists do not even have his name on them. I am not here to do your research for you or be questioned by you, yet the more I read the more I find your claim is unsupportable. Then the defence for your point is name calling and insults revieling your level of competence, I believe this conversation is over, point set, match.

1.) I've asked you, more than once, what numbers would apply for a blocking tight end. You've still not answered that. I noted that even a top end site like Football Outsider doesn't have a method for fully evaluating TEs, especially blocking TEs, and you didn't bother dealing with that issue, either.

2.) I'm not calling Crumpler an elite TE, so you're now arguing against a straw man.

3.) If you're not here to be questioned, you should probably not be on a message board.

4.) I didn't call you names. I pointed out that you were clueless on this issue. The statistics you've cited to, and the arguments you've made, make your cluelessness apparent.


To use your own words..... point set, match

 

[BPF]

Alge is a devastating blocker and had a real solid season last yr in addition his leadership abilities are off the charts. Heading into the draft and throughout the process my thoughts were that Lee Smith would be a perfect fit for this team, especially with all the two TE packages the Pats run. Crump is getting up there in yrs and doesn't have many left from this point of view although I believe he can be a contributor this upcoming season. Smith has excellent size and a huge 34.75 arm length, he's physical in the run game and always finishes blocks. The thing I like best is that he plays with a mean streak. He's also a good outlet receiver as well as on short crossing routes and at this point will be more of a threat in that dept vs Crump. Both will obviously not threaten the seam. Smith also has outstanding intangibles and was a very well respected team leader at Marshall and always was the guy in his locker room that held guys accountable. From what I heard on interviews he doesn't seem like a guy that will be shy because he's a rookie either. I think he'll bring leadership to the Pats locker room. With all that being said why don't we simply let this battle be settled on the field in camp and pre-season.

 

[Calciumee]

Do the work , show the numbers to support your claims untill you do it is only your own opinion. I respect the players history but as of now he can be charecterized as old, overwieght, slow, injured,overpayed, and overrated, being replaced by two exceptional second year players and one rookie with a high threshhold.
Crump had a great career but the operative word is had. Show what he has done lately.

How are these numbers:

Chris Johnson Rushing

- 2009 (with Crump): 2006 yards
- 2010 (without Crump): 1364

Yes, teams will have schemed more against him, making his yards less and the Titans weren't a great team, but losing Crump didn't help!

His average per carry went from 5.6 to 4.3! The major difference was the loss of his blocking TE!

How are they for numbers?

 

[Haley]

How are these numbers:

Chris Johnson Rushing

- 2009 (with Crump): 2006 yards
- 2010 (without Crump): 1364

Yes, teams will have schemed more against him, making his yards less and the Titans weren't a great team, but losing Crump didn't help!

His average per carry went from 5.6 to 4.3! The major difference was the loss of his blocking TE!

How are they for numbers?

Cool post. In observing this discussion, I kept thinking that people were saying how great Crump is at blocking but then in the same breath claiming his actions to be unmeasurable. If they aren't measurable, how do you know he's good?

For this reason I really like the above post. It may not be a perfect measurement but at least it is somewhat helpful in defining how you might see positive impact on the field.

I'd also like to suggest that we as fans have very short memory, particularly for positive events. It is easy to remember the pass Crump missed in the very last heartbreaking game the pats played. We should try to also remember the plays he does make and the incredibly awesome things he does, like this:

Patriots TE Alge Crumpler gives young fan game ball after TD

Note that this was a caught touchdown of his from last year, so if catching touchdowns is part of your criteria, he has made recent impact.

 

[Oswlek]

Cool post. In observing this discussion, I kept thinking that people were saying how great Crump is at blocking but then in the same breath claiming his actions to be unmeasurable. If they aren't measurable, how do you know he's good?

For this reason I really like the above post. It may not be a perfect measurement but at least it is somewhat helpful in defining how you might see positive impact on the field.

I'd also like to suggest that we as fans have very short memory, particularly for positive events. It is easy to remember the pass Crump missed in the very last heartbreaking game the pats played. We should try to also remember the plays he does make and the incredibly awesome things he does, like this:

Patriots TE Alge Crumpler gives young fan game ball after TD

Note that this was a caught touchdown of his from last year, so if catching touchdowns is part of your criteria, he has made recent impact.

Actually, I recall someone (read: me ) mentioning this way back when the conversation first began.

check out Chris Johnson's numbers with and without him

As for "there must be a way to measure" fallacy, take a look at Vince Wilfork. We all agree he is one of the best DL in the league, and arguably one of the 10 best overall defenders in the league, right?

Then explain to me why he isnt in the top 20 in any defensive statistic. Not tackles, not sacks, not TFLs, not FFs or recoveries. Nothing. He doesn't place in the top 10 in any category even if you exclude everyone but defensive lineman!

How can that be? I thought everything must be easily quantified.

 

[bucky]

so when does Crump get traded or let go???

As soon as Smith beats him out on the football field.

 

[Shelterdog]

As soon as Smith beats him out on the football field.

If it's fairly close and there isn't room for a fourth tight end you could see Crump and his approximately 2.5 million salary get cut for the much younger and cheaper Smith.

 

[bucky]

If it's fairly close and there isn't room for a fourth tight end you could see Crump and his approximately 2.5 million salary get cut for the much younger and cheaper Smith.

That's possible. For that to happen, Smith will have to have a very strong camp, or Crumpler will need to have a weak one. I supposed, based on his history, it's possible that Crumpler will show up 20 lbs overweight. But until any of that happens, Smith is just a 5th round rookie trying to make the team any way he can.

 

[Haley]

Chris Johnson Rushing

- 2009 (with Crump): 2006 yards
- 2010 (without Crump): 1364

Yes, teams will have schemed more against him, making his yards less and the Titans weren't a great team, but losing Crump didn't help!

His average per carry went from 5.6 to 4.3! The major difference was the loss of his blocking TE!

check out Chris Johnson's numbers with and without him

Don't you see the difference between these 2 posts? One is informational. One isn't.

As for "there must be a way to measure" fallacy

This is the problem. There is no fallacy. If you are ranking something, you are always using some set of criteria. Otherwise you could provide no such ranking; it is the very definition.

 

[Shelterdog]

That's possible. For that to happen, Smith will have to have a very strong camp, or Crumpler will need to have a weak one. I supposed, based on his history, it's possible that Crumpler will show up 20 lbs overweight. But until any of that happens, Smith is just a 5th round rookie trying to make the team any way he can.

Certainly.

Smith was drafted to _hopefully_ replace Crumpler but whether he can do it or not is clearly to be determined, and it's always a tall order for a fifth rounder to stick on a good NFL team.

 

[Oswlek]

Don't you see the difference between these 2 posts? One is informational. One isn't.

This is the problem. There is no fallacy. If you are ranking something, you are always using some set of criteria. Otherwise you could provide no such ranking; it is the very definition.

My original comment offered no value simply because someone chose not to find the very specific information I was pointing out? I'll admit it is nice when someone else does the digging, but the point was the same.

So, then we agree that Vince Wilfork is about the 15-20th best defensive lineman in the league?

There is plenty of criteria to grade/rank players. It just doesn't always manifest itself in stats fans are familiar with. But you can be damn sure BB keeps track of Crumpler's blocking and knows how it compares to the rest of the league.

 

[TheSolderKing]

53 is merely to small



55 bump it up to


53 is no good:bricks:


4 TE's better make it. Lee Smith would not have been drafted if BB did not have a plan for him


can u imagine having a HUGE Tree, a Puetro Rican Chris Coolio and 2 beastly blocking TE's


:rocker:


Cut the LONG SNAPPER Bill

 

[Haley]

My original comment offered no value simply because someone chose not to find the very specific information I was pointing out? I'll admit it is nice when someone else does the digging, but the point was the same.

I wouldn't say it has no value, however it is the difference between a post and an informative post. In most cases, it is also the difference between having an argument and making an argument. When you attempt to make a point, the burden of proof is generally on you.

So, then we agree that Vince Wilfork is about the 15-20th best defensive lineman in the league?

There is plenty of criteria to grade/rank players. It just doesn't always manifest itself in stats fans are familiar with. But you can be damn sure BB keeps track of Crumpler's blocking and knows how it compares to the rest of the league.

My point was simply that you cannot have it both ways. Either you can rank people and therefore you have defined a ranking system, or you cannot and you enter the realm of unmeasurable. To claim someone better than other people but say there is no measurement for it is contradictory and confusing.

 

[moosekill]

I wanna trade Hoyer ASAP to get Round 2 Comp and to free roster s[ace.


Mallets contract is erroneous to me wanting to trade hoyert.


Calciume peoplel do forget that game.:bricks:


at least we know. I take my chance on a pro-understudy to the best over a college chump who is

forget my early preclusion so sign him long trtm... ifv he imprsses maybe we vdo something then.

Mallett is to far away from being TFB succesor. If it were 2-3 years later on then yes long term prolly

To Heck with teh 2nd rondar, I want 2 firts roundars for Hoyer and anoter first for Crumpler. I lov Aglead Crumpler and Iz wantz to has Mallet's babyz. Get her Done BB or iyll jest die@!!!!

 

[Potstickas]

Crumpled is a great leader and teacher. I think BB thought why not get one more young TE so they can learn from a good one before he retires.

 

[TheSolderKing]

To Heck with teh 2nd rondar, I want 2 firts roundars for Hoyer and anoter first for Crumpler. I lov Aglead Crumpler and Iz wantz to has Mallet's babyz. Get her Done BB or iyll jest die@!!!!

that was DUMB


Hoyer is an EASY SECOND ROUNDER



Whiza has me quoted we chatted on draft day

 

[Oswlek]

I wouldn't say it has no value, however it is the difference between a post and an informative post. In most cases, it is also the difference between having an argument and making an argument. When you attempt to make a point, the burden of proof is generally on you.

My point was simply that you cannot have it both ways. Either you can rank people and therefore you have defined a ranking system, or you cannot and you enter the realm of unmeasurable. To claim someone better than other people but say there is no measurement for it is contradictory and confusing.

Considering how effusive the praise of Crumpler has been - from BB to Gronk to Brady, Alge spent the last year ducking all the compliments hurled in his direction - the fact that Crumpler was made a captain almost immediately and how often even the idiot announcers point out key blocks by the guy, Crumpler's value is clear as day to anyone who followed the team last year.

BTW, in case you missed it, I left a smiley on the post where I said I brought up the TN running game. I understand providing the numbers is better than not doing so. I neglected to do so in my original post because I thought it was obvious to anyone following the NFL in 2010 how much Johnson fell off minus his blocking TE.

I can see your point in the final paragraph if I were trying to prove a new concept without any real data. The problem is that, as I said before, virtualy every key Patriot spent last year drooling over how impactful Crumpler's leadership and blocking was. With those guys in my corner, I feel pretty good about my position.

 

[Off The Grid]

4 TE SET!!! :rocker:

You Know That's Right!! :rocker:

They should carry four TE's this year. Remember, wham is the new fullback. I like Lee Smith a lot, and think he will be a solid contributor. However, the guy could be what Kyle Brady should have been and still won't replace Crump. A ten plus year vet who took his game from receiving to blocking, remained at an extremely high level, and is the definition of professional will never be usurped by a rookie. Especially on the Patriots, and especially when he was one of the keys to the team getting its soul back.

EPIC Post.

Nice work. Your posts have melted my heart like 183C would melt eutectic tin/lead solder.

EXACTLY how I was gonna put it.

my cuts clayton morris fragile glass slater fletcher butler

1 ~ All Texters must be HANGED.

2 ~ All donkeys who advocate the cutting of Dane Fletcher must be boiled in OIL.

 

[Haley]

Considering how effusive the praise of Crumpler has been - from BB to Gronk to Brady, Alge spent the last year ducking all the compliments hurled in his direction - the fact that Crumpler was made a captain almost immediately and how often even the idiot announcers point out key blocks by the guy, Crumpler's value is clear as day to anyone who followed the team last year.

BTW, in case you missed it, I left a smiley on the post where I said I brought up the TN running game. I understand providing the numbers is better than not doing so. I neglected to do so in my original post because I thought it was obvious to anyone following the NFL in 2010 how much Johnson fell off minus his blocking TE.

I can see your point in the final paragraph if I were trying to prove a new concept without any real data. The problem is that, as I said before, virtualy every key Patriot spent last year drooling over how impactful Crumpler's leadership and blocking was. With those guys in my corner, I feel pretty good about my position.

I hear ya. But sometimes things that seem obvious to me turn out to mystify other people and I am left with no choice but to disclose information that feels like common sense.

I feel this way every time I try to help my parents with their computer problems. I have spent years explaining the difference between hard drive space and volatile memory. Oh, the pain, the agony! And god forbid they ever find out about the existence of the page file!! Virtual memory?!? I'll have to start all over!!!