It's all up to Gagne now

[DarrylS]

I think it was a good move...the bullpen is deadly. However, I think it was more important to get the Dye deal done. They needed another bat in the line-up.

I agree the Gagne move might upset the Bullpen "Chemistry", thought that Dye could do a lot here..particularly if Papi needed some time to get better, he could spell Manny, Drew, Youk who could spell Lowell.. time to move on with what we have.

 

[BradyManny]

Sucks to see him got to Boston but nice move. Im glad the Yanks stood pat, because as much as I would have love to see him here. We just could not afford to give up prospects Alan Horne, Ian Kennedy, Joba Chamberlain, or Melky for ultimately a 2 month rental

You say this as if we did give up prospects of that caliber. We didn't, we gave up guys we could afford to lose and had no real future on the team's big league squad.

 

[mangenious]

You say this as if we did give up prospects of that caliber. We didn't, we gave up guys we could afford to lose and had no real future on the team's big league squad.

Im just going off reports that had the Texas demands of the Yanks were one of their top 5 pitching guys. IF that is the case then I think it was worth it to just stand pat. The Red Sox made a great deal. This Beltre OF was talked up a good deal on ESPN but he is only 17 and who knows what he will be.

 

[BradyManny]

Im just going off reports that had the Texas demands of the Yanks were one of their top 5 pitching guys. IF that is the case then I think it was worth it to just stand pat. The Red Sox made a great deal. This Beltre OF was talked up a good deal on ESPN but he is only 17 and who knows what he will be.

After reading some more about Beltre, I think he might actually be the sleeper in this deal...of the three, he's the only one that I think the Sox ever might come to regret moving.

That said, I was merely trying to say that both the Sox and the Yanks were able to hold onto their highly touted prospects this trading deadline - the Sox used lesser valued chips to get Gagne.

 

[mangenious]

After reading some more about Beltre, I think he might actually be the sleeper in this deal...of the three, he's the only one that I think the Sox ever might come to regret moving.

That said, I was merely trying to say that both the Sox and the Yanks were able to hold onto their highly touted prospects this trading deadline - the Sox used lesser valued chips to get Gagne.

Thats exactly why this deal makes me sick. The Sox still kept their top guys like Bucholz and while Gabbard is a good pitcher, he is a guy who can be replaced. Mt question is after this year do the sox revisit putting Paps in the rotation and then have gagne close? I know paps is a phenomenal closer but damn, Beckett, Dice-K, Schill, Paps and soon Bucholz

 

[Boston Boxer]

You're right - but with his silly 77/16 K/BB ratio in AA and AAA (leaving out A), in 45 1/3 IP - I'm assuming he's ready now until proven otherwise. 13 K, 1 BB in 6 IP of AAA

he has only pitched 2 game in AAA. I doubt we can take anything away from that...too small a sample size.

 

[BradyManny]

Mt question is after this year do the sox revisit putting Paps in the rotation and then have gagne close? I know paps is a phenomenal closer but damn, Beckett, Dice-K, Schill, Paps and soon Bucholz

Probably not, I'd guess. I was a huge proponent of Paps being in the starting rotation at the beginning of this year, but at this point, it seems to make the most sense that he stays as closer. He clearly likes it best, and that's the team's need for now and in the future, because it's not just Bucholz, it's also Lester, and within 2 or so years, Bowden and Masterson.

Of course, you could save the 13 mill on Schill, move Wake to the pen, stick Paps in the rotation and have a Beckett-DiceK-Bucholz-Lester-Papelbon rotation next season. But like I said, I think Paps is a closer for his career now.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Thoughts on the trade:

I'm sick of the notion that Texas required top talent from the Yankees while settling for less from the Sox. Yes Texas asked for Hughes or Chamberlain. They also asked for Ellsbury, Lester, or Buchholz. The Sox said no and negotiated using lesser players. The Yankees had the same option and chose to not do so. The fact that the Yankees attached the "untouchable" label to everyone in their entire system was the reason why they didn't get Gagne.

The Yankees couldn't make this trade because they refused to trade their version of Murphy (Melky, who is basically Murphy but proven that he can cut it as a ML 4th OF) and they don't have a guy like Gabbard (and if they did, they'd need him). You have to either trade useful-now-but-low-ceiling guys or prospects. The Yankees don't have many of the former and refused to trade any of the latter.

You always need more bullpen arms. When Lopez and Timlin see fewer innings in the playoffs this deal will prove how valuable it is.

Okajima needs some rest, and I hope this move allows it. I fear it won't have any effect since Francona is set in his ways and his current Okajima usage pattern is set to "always."

The first thought I had was "they should have just signed him in the offseason." They brought in a bunch of bullpen arms and Gagne was the one they didn't. It just turns out that he turned out well while Piniero didn't. You make moves looking forward, not backward.

As for Beltre, you don't hold up a deal like this for a toolsy 17 year old. There's a tiny chance he's a future all-star, a small chance he's a regular starter, and a good chance he's a 4th OF or never even makes it to the majors.

I like Gabbard and hope he has some success, but I'm thrilled with the Sox selling high. If he were as good as he has pitched in the majors he'd have a minor league track record which indicates future success. He doesn't.

I like deals where both teams win. Murphy doesn't offer much to a team like Boston that can buy a 20M left fielder and a 14M right fielder. He's good filler on a team like Texas and might be able to hold down a starting job through his peak years. Gabbard's groundball tendencies will fit in well in Texas.

It's spelled Buchholz. B - U - C - H - H - O - L - Z. It's not Buccholz, Bucholz, or any other variation. I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm trying to spread the word.

This deal is nice Delcarmen insurance. I hope he doesn't wilt under the pressure of a pennant race or playoffs, but if he does he's suddenly less important to the success of the team.

I'm sick of the notion that the Sox pick a guy up to prevent the Yankees from getting him. They got Daisuke because they really wanted Daisuke. They got Gagne because they wanted Gagne. When the Yankees got Contreras it wasn't to keep him from the Sox.

Expounding on the blocking theory, the Yankees should have beat the Sox offer, forcing Boston to trade a young arm to block the Yankees. Stupid Yankees.

Joba is blowing away minor leaguers and I'd love the Sox to have a prospect with his k rate, but this is his first year of pro ball. Maybe he'll dominate ML hitters. Maybe he'll be exposed as not-yet-ready-for-primetime. Maybe he'll just be average. Counting on him to anchor the pen and bragging about his impending dominance is silly.

The Sox made a solid offer for Dye. The ChiSox wanted more (which is perfectly within their rights). I'm glad Boston didn't give in. Unless acquiring Dye meant the Sox were going to put Ortiz or Drew on the DL it just didn't make any sense. Where was he going to play? And the Sox would have been trading for the 2007 Dye, not the 2006 version.

Paps is probably a closer for good. I was psyched to see him start this year and thought he was wasted as a closer last year. I think they've past the point of no return on him. He seems to really dig the role. Maybe they'll look at his shoulder in the offseason and decide he won't hold up long-term as a closer, or maybe he and his agent will decide that he wants to start because starters make more money. The Sox have quite a few starter prospects and a solution as closer in Paps. They should probably just be happy with that.

 

[BradyManny]

Thoughts on the trade:

I'm sick of the notion that Texas required top talent from the Yankees while settling for less from the Sox. Yes Texas asked for Hughes or Chamberlain. They also asked for Ellsbury, Lester, or Buchholz. The Sox said no and negotiated using lesser players. The Yankees had the same option and chose to not do so. The fact that the Yankees attached the "untouchable" label to everyone in their entire system was the reason why they didn't get Gagne.

Too tired to read the entirety of this post tonite, but from an outsider to the Yankees farm system looking in, I'm seeing that the Yanks don't have the surplus second tier of talent in the farm system that the Sox do. The Yanks have a lot of prize chips that are untouchables, as do the Sox, but maybe they don't have expendable pieces like Murphys and Gabbards (or if they do, like a Clippard, DeSalvo and the other guys they've trotted out this season, they have yet to prove themselves that valuable.) Just my guess.

 

[mangenious]

Thoughts on the trade:

I'm sick of the notion that Texas required top talent from the Yankees while settling for less from the Sox. Yes Texas asked for Hughes or Chamberlain. They also asked for Ellsbury, Lester, or Buchholz. The Sox said no and negotiated using lesser players. The Yankees had the same option and chose to not do so. The fact that the Yankees attached the "untouchable" label to everyone in their entire system was the reason why they didn't get Gagne.

The Yankees couldn't make this trade because they refused to trade their version of Murphy (Melky, who is basically Murphy but proven that he can cut it as a ML 4th OF) and they don't have a guy like Gabbard (and if they did, they'd need him). You have to either trade useful-now-but-low-ceiling guys or prospects. The Yankees don't have many of the former and refused to trade any of the latter.

Melky is our only CF on the team now, who would play CF if we traded him? Mr. Nagging injuries Johnny Damon? Melky isnt chopped liver, he has hit .320 since May and provides better defense then damon. The Yanks dont have a plethora of middle of the road prospects. You guys did trade the Beltre outfielder who is only 17 and who many have good things to say about. You gave him a 600,000 bonus to sign last year so I consider him more then an average prospect.

Expounding on the blocking theory, the Yankees should have beat the Sox offer, forcing Boston to trade a young arm to block the Yankees. Stupid Yankees.

Joba is blowing away minor leaguers and I'd love the Sox to have a prospect with his k rate, but this is his first year of pro ball. Maybe he'll dominate ML hitters. Maybe he'll be exposed as not-yet-ready-for-primetime. Maybe he'll just be average. Counting on him to anchor the pen and bragging about his impending dominance is silly.

Trading Joba is not an option point blank. You dont trade a kid with his stuff at his age for a possible two month rental. No one is counting on him to anchor the pen. Vizcaino will be the setup man and has been doing great the past two months.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Melky is our only CF on the team now, who would play CF if we traded him? Mr. Nagging injuries Johnny Damon? Melky isnt chopped liver, he has hit .320 since May and provides better defense then damon. The Yanks dont have a plethora of middle of the road prospects. You guys did trade the Beltre outfielder who is only 17 and who many have good things to say about. You gave him a 600,000 bonus to sign last year so I consider him more then an average prospect.

Trading Joba is not an option point blank. You dont trade a kid with his stuff at his age for a possible two month rental. No one is counting on him to anchor the pen. Vizcaino will be the setup man and has been doing great the past two months.

Yeah, I'm not saying the Yankees should have traded Melky. They couldn't because their CF is broken down and they have no other options. The Sox could trade Melky because they would have no need for him.

And I never intended to say they should trade Joba. You only trade Joba for Santana, Cabrera, or similar. There are plenty of Yankees fans pointing to him as a sure-thing answer to the bullpen, though.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Too tired to read the entirety of this post tonite, but from an outsider to the Yankees farm system looking in, I'm seeing that the Yanks don't have the surplus second tier of talent in the farm system that the Sox do. The Yanks have a lot of prize chips that are untouchables, as do the Sox, but maybe they don't have expendable pieces like Murphys and Gabbards (or if they do, like a Clippard, DeSalvo and the other guys they've trotted out this season, they have yet to prove themselves that valuable.) Just my guess.

Yeah I pretty much fully agree with that view. I tried to touch on that in my second paragraph.

 

[mangenious]

Yeah, I'm not saying the Yankees should have traded Melky. They couldn't because their CF is broken down and they have no other options. The Sox could trade Melky because they would have no need for him.

And I never intended to say they should trade Joba. You only trade Joba for Santana, Cabrera, or similar. There are plenty of Yankees fans pointing to him as a sure-thing answer to the bullpen, though.

Ok I gotcha now . The Sox were in a better position of luxury to make a trade IMO

 

[BradyManny]

Yeah I pretty much fully agree with that view. I tried to touch on that in my second paragraph.

Yup...if I had just read down another couple lines I would've seen you already made that point!

 

[patriotspride]

.

I'm certainly not going to complain about the addition of a solid bullpen arm, but wouldn't it have made more sense to go after something they need as opposed to just strengthening something that was already the best in baseball? A decent bench bat or two should have been more of a priority than another reliever. And getting someone like Reggie Sanders or Xavier Nady or even rolling the dice on Morgan Ensberg wouldn't have cost all that much.

the pen was great for most of the year this is true.but they needed pen help more than a bat.donnelly announced after the deal he was done for the year [sox knew this before the trade ]timlin is old hurt and cant be counted on.and okejema has already pitched more this year than any year in japan .then you've got pap that needs to be monitored. this was the perfect move to make and it was made out of necessity.

 

[rbkgoalr]

Papelbon is and will be our closer. Gagne will be an outstanding setup man and will also be great to take save opportunities when Papelbon is unavailable. Next year, I see us signing Gagne back and making Papelbon a starter, although I would not like to see Papelbon in the rotation.

 

[Foley]

the pen was great for most of the year this is true.but they needed pen help more than a bat.donnelly announced after the deal he was done for the year [sox knew this before the trade ]timlin is old hurt and cant be counted on.and okejema has already pitched more this year than any year in japan .then you've got pap that needs to be monitored. this was the perfect move to make and it was made out of necessity.

The move makes a lot more sense to me since hearing the Donnelly news. I expected him to be an important piece in the second half so having him go down does make Gagne more of a necessity than a luxury.

That still doesn't mean they couldn't have made a move to upgrade the bench, but at least now it makes sense why it wasn't priority number one.

 

[Patti37]

Thoughts on the trade:

I'm sick of the notion that Texas required top talent from the Yankees while settling for less from the Sox. Yes Texas asked for Hughes or Chamberlain. They also asked for Ellsbury, Lester, or Buchholz. The Sox said no and negotiated using lesser players. The Yankees had the same option and chose to not do so. The fact that the Yankees attached the "untouchable" label to everyone in their entire system was the reason why they didn't get Gagne.

The Yankees couldn't make this trade because they refused to trade their version of Murphy (Melky, who is basically Murphy but proven that he can cut it as a ML 4th OF) and they don't have a guy like Gabbard (and if they did, they'd need him). You have to either trade useful-now-but-low-ceiling guys or prospects. The Yankees don't have many of the former and refused to trade any of the latter.

You always need more bullpen arms. When Lopez and Timlin see fewer innings in the playoffs this deal will prove how valuable it is.

Okajima needs some rest, and I hope this move allows it. I fear it won't have any effect since Francona is set in his ways and his current Okajima usage pattern is set to "always."

The first thought I had was "they should have just signed him in the offseason." They brought in a bunch of bullpen arms and Gagne was the one they didn't. It just turns out that he turned out well while Piniero didn't. You make moves looking forward, not backward.

As for Beltre, you don't hold up a deal like this for a toolsy 17 year old. There's a tiny chance he's a future all-star, a small chance he's a regular starter, and a good chance he's a 4th OF or never even makes it to the majors.

I like Gabbard and hope he has some success, but I'm thrilled with the Sox selling high. If he were as good as he has pitched in the majors he'd have a minor league track record which indicates future success. He doesn't.

I like deals where both teams win. Murphy doesn't offer much to a team like Boston that can buy a 20M left fielder and a 14M right fielder. He's good filler on a team like Texas and might be able to hold down a starting job through his peak years. Gabbard's groundball tendencies will fit in well in Texas.

It's spelled Buchholz. B - U - C - H - H - O - L - Z. It's not Buccholz, Bucholz, or any other variation. I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm trying to spread the word.

This deal is nice Delcarmen insurance. I hope he doesn't wilt under the pressure of a pennant race or playoffs, but if he does he's suddenly less important to the success of the team.

I'm sick of the notion that the Sox pick a guy up to prevent the Yankees from getting him. They got Daisuke because they really wanted Daisuke. They got Gagne because they wanted Gagne. When the Yankees got Contreras it wasn't to keep him from the Sox.

Expounding on the blocking theory, the Yankees should have beat the Sox offer, forcing Boston to trade a young arm to block the Yankees. Stupid Yankees.

Joba is blowing away minor leaguers and I'd love the Sox to have a prospect with his k rate, but this is his first year of pro ball. Maybe he'll dominate ML hitters. Maybe he'll be exposed as not-yet-ready-for-primetime. Maybe he'll just be average. Counting on him to anchor the pen and bragging about his impending dominance is silly.

The Sox made a solid offer for Dye. The ChiSox wanted more (which is perfectly within their rights). I'm glad Boston didn't give in. Unless acquiring Dye meant the Sox were going to put Ortiz or Drew on the DL it just didn't make any sense. Where was he going to play? And the Sox would have been trading for the 2007 Dye, not the 2006 version.

Paps is probably a closer for good. I was psyched to see him start this year and thought he was wasted as a closer last year. I think they've past the point of no return on him. He seems to really dig the role. Maybe they'll look at his shoulder in the offseason and decide he won't hold up long-term as a closer, or maybe he and his agent will decide that he wants to start because starters make more money. The Sox have quite a few starter prospects and a solution as closer in Paps. They should probably just be happy with that.

The Sox made an offer for Dye and you are correct that the White Sox wanted too much. I don't think they should have overpaid for him. Interesting comment made by Theo was that all teams had inflated prices this year...but

I definitely think the Sox need another bat...Dye would have filled the bill. Sounded like they were willing to make accomodations such that he would have played five days a week. Ortiz isn't physically himself this year...there are injuries this year. It never hurts to give Manny a rest from playing the field. If JD Drew's bat never gets going, there is always the possibility of a platoon.

 

[patriotspride]

The move makes a lot more sense to me since hearing the Donnelly news. I expected him to be an important piece in the second half so having him go down does make Gagne more of a necessity than a luxury.

That still doesn't mean they couldn't have made a move to upgrade the bench, but at least now it makes sense why it wasn't priority number one.

what do you give up to get a guy like dye?ya they could have made a move to upgrade the bench.but the question is should they have.i say no the white sox wanted to much .

 

[Foley]

I was talking about someone for the bench, not someone like Dye who would be starting almost every day. It would not have cost a lot to get someone like Ty Wigginton, or Xavier Nady, or Sammy Sosa, or Rob Mackowiak, or Mike Piazza; someone who is not an easy out when a regular is given the day off. But now they either stick with a poor bench or hope for a waiver deal and sign guys like Bobby Keilty and Junior Spivey.