It's all up to Gagne now

[mangenious]

The real question is exactly what the lead needs to be for the Yankmee trolls to feel sufficiently emboldened?

And the answer is: 4 games.

I actually only see the AL East as a bonus, just get me the wid card and a spot in the postseason and you can have the A East

 

[Real World]

Not sure how valid these are, but take a look, both are pre-luxury tax.

Sox = 143 million:
http://www.sportscity.com/MLB/Boston-Red-Sox-Salaries


Yankees = 212 million:
http://www.sportscity.com/MLB/New-York-Yankees-Salaries

Personally, I'm not exactly enamored with the Sox ever-growing salary, particularly as it hasn't turned into results. I think it's moderately embarrassing for either of these teams if they don't make it to the playoffs in a given year, but much more so for the Yankees.

Even with their bloated payroll, the Sox are still 70 mill behind the Yanks. Teams like the Twins, Orioles, Jays, etc., hover around that 70 million payroll as is. It's just such a huge advantage.

If the Sox had that 70 million to spend, that could buy you (2006 salaries of) Albert Pujols, Carlos Beltran, Vlad Guerrero, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt & Johan Santana. Just gives you a little perspectve on the kind of advantage the Yankees have, and what a joke it is that their team fails to win the world series with their payroll.

It all depends on where you look.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=nyy

1. NY Yankees 195,229,045
2. Boston 143,123,714

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/salaries

1. New York Yankees $ 189,639,045
2. Boston Red Sox $ 143,026,214

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/teamSalary?categoryId=71588

1 Yankees $191,238,122
2 Red Sox $149,426,214


These figures don't include the posting fees either team paid for imports. Obviously few teams can afford to offer $51+, and $26 million dollar posting fees for players who've hadn't had a single days experience in the majors. It goes without saying that the Yankees have an advantage with repsect to payroll versus the Sox. However, the Sox are hardly victims of payroll impropriety.

 

[Real World]

I actually only see the AL East as a bonus, just get me the wid card and a spot in the postseason and you can have the A East

Same here. I just want to get in. That being said, the Yankees will have a tougher time in the playoffs where pitching matters more than hitting. They're built for the regular season, and not so much the post season.

 

[BradyManny]

It all depends on where you look.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=nyy

1. NY Yankees 195,229,045
2. Boston 143,123,714

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/salaries

1. New York Yankees $ 189,639,045
2. Boston Red Sox $ 143,026,214

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/teamSalary?categoryId=71588

1 Yankees $191,238,122
2 Red Sox $149,426,214


These figures don't include the posting fees either team paid for imports. Obviously few teams can afford to offer $51+, and $26 million dollar posting fees for players who've hadn't had a single days experience in the majors. It goes without saying that the Yankees have an advantage with repsect to payroll versus the Sox. However, the Sox are hardly victims of payroll impropriety.

FYI, I think the ESPN/Fox numbers were missing Clemens, which prorates to 18 mill. The other numbers were 06, so I think something over 200 mill is accurate for NYY in 07, although exact #s are never out until after the season.

 

[BradyManny]

Relavant to this conversation, spotted on SOSH.com...

http://www.projectprospect.com/top-75-rankings-8607/

NYY:

1. Hughes
8. Chamberlain
32. Kennedy
36. Tabata
75. Cervelli

BOS:
4. Buccholz
19. Anderson
31. Ellsbury
45. Masterson
46. Bowden

It should be exciting - and revitalize the rivalry a little - over the next few years, particualrly with the arms like Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Buccholz, Masterson, Bowden...

 

[sdaniels7114]

Ok, that was better tonight(8-14.) Certainly not the lights out guy we were told to expect; but not what we had over the weekend either.

Tremendous win over all though.

 

[Double G]

Mangenious,
My point is listening to Yankee fans, you'd think the Yankees are the little train that could, ie, comments like "Isn't this great they are battling for the lead in the division now, that scrappy bunch?"

With their payroll, THEY SHOULD have been right there all along, not 14 games out.

Give them credit for coming back, but with that bloated payroll, they never should have been in the position they are in.

I also agree it means jack who wins the division, as long as they get to the playoffs. This ain't 1978, ie, no wildcard.

My opinion is the Red Sox, if they make the playoffs, are one and done. Take today for example; they trot out Dice K, who has been just about the best pitcher in baseball since June and Tampa throws some @#$%ing stiff out there, 1-8 and he throws a two hitter through six innings and it's 6-0 Tampa. Haven't seen the final score yet and aside from some miracle comeback, the Red Sox scored a grand total of five runs in three games at home vs friggin TAMPA.

The Red Sox have been limping along playing mediocre baseball for close to three months. Which team are they really, the one that got off to the great start or the current version. Manny and David are not doing it this year, David is hurt, cannot get down and turn on that inside fastball that he normally murders. Manny is on the wrong side of 30 and maybe father time is catching up to him, he looks like a complete bonehead on the basepaths to boot.

September 9th can't come fast enough.............

 

[mangenious]

Mangenious,
My point is listening to Yankee fans, you'd think the Yankees are the little train that could, ie, comments like "Isn't this great they are battling for the lead in the division now, that scrappy bunch?"

With their payroll, THEY SHOULD have been right there all along, not 14 games out.

Give them credit for coming back, but with that bloated payroll, they never should have been in the position they are in.

I also agree it means jack who wins the division, as long as they get to the playoffs. This ain't 1978, ie, no wildcard.

My opinion is the Red Sox, if they make the playoffs, are one and done. Take today for example; they trot out Dice K, who has been just about the best pitcher in baseball since June and Tampa throws some @#$%ing stiff out there, 1-8 and he throws a two hitter through six innings and it's 6-0 Tampa. Haven't seen the final score yet and aside from some miracle comeback, the Red Sox scored a grand total of five runs in three games at home vs friggin TAMPA.

The Red Sox have been limping along playing mediocre baseball for close to three months. Which team are they really, the one that got off to the great start or the current version. Manny and David are not doing it this year, David is hurt, cannot get down and turn on that inside fastball that he normally murders. Manny is on the wrong side of 30 and maybe father time is catching up to him, he looks like a complete bonehead on the basepaths to boot.

September 9th can't come fast enough.............

fair enough, I agree with a lot of what you say. I dont like to say the little engine that could but think its awesome to see young home grown guys like duncan, melky, cano, hughes, chamberlain and wang with a role of a playoff contender team.

 

[patriotspride]

Mangenious,
My point is listening to Yankee fans, you'd think the Yankees are the little train that could, ie, comments like "Isn't this great they are battling for the lead in the division now, that scrappy bunch?"

With their payroll, THEY SHOULD have been right there all along, not 14 games out.

Give them credit for coming back, but with that bloated payroll, they never should have been in the position they are in.

I also agree it means jack who wins the division, as long as they get to the playoffs. This ain't 1978, ie, no wildcard.

My opinion is the Red Sox, if they make the playoffs, are one and done. Take today for example; they trot out Dice K, who has been just about the best pitcher in baseball since June and Tampa throws some @#$%ing stiff out there, 1-8 and he throws a two hitter through six innings and it's 6-0 Tampa. Haven't seen the final score yet and aside from some miracle comeback, the Red Sox scored a grand total of five runs in three games at home vs friggin TAMPA.

The Red Sox have been limping along playing mediocre baseball for close to three months. Which team are they really, the one that got off to the great start or the current version. Manny and David are not doing it this year, David is hurt, cannot get down and turn on that inside fastball that he normally murders. Manny is on the wrong side of 30 and maybe father time is catching up to him, he looks like a complete bonehead on the basepaths to boot.

September 9th can't come fast enough.............

everything you say is right on.but keep in mind who won the world series last year .a team with 82 wins .you just never know in the playoffs

 

[frankiesfly]

Gagne is a mess right now. When the Sox got Gagne i actually laughed. I was wondering why? Why would you bring in Gagne a known closer into an already good bull pen to be a setup type guy. I have friends that are big Boston fans and not one of them thought Gagne was a good idea. Its not just Gagne its most cloers. When you try to break there role that they had for years its hard for them to adjust. Gagne will never be good at the role he has in Boston. The Sox are actually in a situation where they really don't have a choice but to play him. Thats scary. This isn't the end of Gagne's troubles. The best thing to do for Gagne to get better is put him in games when Boston is only losing in close games That will help with the pressure and get him used to doing something else. When he starts keeping leads form widening and keeping the team in the game, start working him back into the setup role. If not he will continue to hurt instaed of help.

 

[Foley]

Its not just Gagne its most cloers. When you try to break there role that they had for years its hard for them to adjust.

Really? Most closers? Find me another example of a closer struggling in a setup role. K-Rod and Rivera setup with great success before they were closers, Randy Myers setup in 1991 after being a closer the previous 3 years, Akinori Otsuka setup just fine this year after being a closer last year, Roberto Hernandez has had several decent seasons as a setup guy since being a closer, Jose Mesa was better in 2006 as a setup man than he was as a closer in 2005, and Troy Percival is doing a pretty good job of it right now. Closers may struggle when coming in the game just to get work when there is a big lead, but there is no precedent to suggest that a closer cannot setup. And there is a lot that suggests the contrary.

I think he is more likely injured than unable to adapt to the setup role. He had a 5.65ERA in his last 8 appearances for Texas, so its not as though this started up the second he got to Boston. Its gotten a whole lot worse of course, but he showed signs of it before.

 

[frankiesfly]

Really? Most closers? Find me another example of a closer struggling in a setup role. K-Rod and Rivera setup with great success before they were closers, Randy Myers setup in 1991 after being a closer the previous 3 years, Akinori Otsuka setup just fine this year after being a closer last year, Roberto Hernandez has had several decent seasons as a setup guy since being a closer, Jose Mesa was better in 2006 as a setup man than he was as a closer in 2005, and Troy Percival is doing a pretty good job of it right now. Closers may struggle when coming in the game just to get work when there is a big lead, but there is no precedent to suggest that a closer cannot setup. And there is a lot that suggests the contrary.

I think he is more likely injured than unable to adapt to the setup role. He had a 5.65ERA in his last 8 appearances for Texas, so its not as though this started up the second he got to Boston. Its gotten a whole lot worse of course, but he showed signs of it before.

I'm sure those pitchers went through a time of adjustment. Thats what i was saying right? I was saying its hard for them to adjust. I didin't say He or others can't be succesful. In most cases pitchers get into a comfort zone. When you take them out of there comort zone, it effects their pitchng.( the point i was trying to make) Gagne is not injured. You think Francona would be using Gagne in close games if he was, especially with the Yanks hot on their assess. Hell no.

 

[Foley]

I didin't say He or others can't be succesful.

Oh?

Gagne will never be good at the role he has in Boston.

I'm sure there may have been a time of adjustment for some of the guys I mentioned, but there is a difference between adjusting and being completely unable to pitch. Giving up 10 runs in 6IP is more than an adjustment.

And while I would hope Francona wouldn't pitch Gagne if he was injured, I would also hope Francona wouldn't pitch Gagne in a close game when it is clear he isn't pitching very well. Obviously thats not the case. And even if hes not injured, it could very likely be possible he has just worn down. 39.1IP is a lot of innings for Gagne since he pitched only 15.1IP the past 2 seasons combine. A full season of work may be more than he can handle considering the light workloads of 2005-06.

 

[Real World]

Gagne is a mess right now. When the Sox got Gagne i actually laughed. I was wondering why? Why would you bring in Gagne a known closer into an already good bull pen to be a setup type guy. I have friends that are big Boston fans and not one of them thought Gagne was a good idea. Its not just Gagne its most cloers. When you try to break there role that they had for years its hard for them to adjust. Gagne will never be good at the role he has in Boston. The Sox are actually in a situation where they really don't have a choice but to play him. Thats scary. This isn't the end of Gagne's troubles. The best thing to do for Gagne to get better is put him in games when Boston is only losing in close games That will help with the pressure and get him used to doing something else. When he starts keeping leads form widening and keeping the team in the game, start working him back into the setup role. If not he will continue to hurt instaed of help.

It's interesting cuz I remember the Pirates had a closer named Mike Williams a few years ago, and while his era was over 5.00, he closed games at a 90+% rate. People used to say that some guys are simply better is closing situations, whereas some are not. Mike Timlin is a guy who was never comfortable as a closer, despite always having terrific stuff. Maybe it is mental for some of these players.

 

[BelichickFan]

It's interesting cuz I remember the Pirates had a closer named Mike Williams a few years ago, and while his era was over 5.00, he closed games at a 90+% rate.

Look at Joe Borowski in Cleveland - ERA of 5.44 but 34/38 in save chances.

 

[frankiesfly]

Oh?

I'm sure there may have been a time of adjustment for some of the guys I mentioned, but there is a difference between adjusting and being completely unable to pitch. Giving up 10 runs in 6IP is more than an adjustment.

And while I would hope Francona wouldn't pitch Gagne if he was injured, I would also hope Francona wouldn't pitch Gagne in a close game when it is clear he isn't pitching very well. Obviously thats not the case. And even if hes not injured, it could very likely be possible he has just worn down. 39.1IP is a lot of innings for Gagne since he pitched only 15.1IP the past 2 seasons combine. A full season of work may be more than he can handle considering the light workloads of 2005-06.

This is what i saw today. I was watching baseball tonight the sunday afternoon addition. One of the topics was Gagne. They were saying that its his pitch selection. With 2 strikes they were saying that he was throwing his secondary pitches( change up, curve ball) like 60% of the time in Texas. Now here in Boston he is throwing the fastball more with two strikes. They were saying if Gagne went back to his secondary pitches with 2 strikes he will have more success. I guess we'll wait and see.
I agree. Maybe he is worn down. Those are some interesting stats. Pitchers get something called tired arm, where they need some time to just rest. That could definetly be the case.

 

[Foley]

This is what i saw today. I was watching baseball tonight the sunday afternoon addition. One of the topics was Gagne. They were saying that its his pitch selection. With 2 strikes they were saying that he was throwing his secondary pitches( change up, curve ball) like 60% of the time in Texas. Now here in Boston he is throwing the fastball more with two strikes. They were saying if Gagne went back to his secondary pitches with 2 strikes he will have more success. I guess we'll wait and see.

I saw that too. And as much as I hate to agree with Steve Phillips, it did make a lot more sense than any of the other reasons that have been hypothesized. Whether this is an issue with Varitek calling too many fastballs or Gagne shaking Varitek off too much, if this is the problem it should be pretty easy to fix.

 

[Real World]

Look at Joe Borowski in Cleveland - ERA of 5.44 but 34/38 in save chances.

Exactly. People talk about it all the time. How some, or most closers era jumps from save situations, to non-save situations. I guess the adreniline doesn't run as high in a tie, or losing game, which makes them lose their edge.

 

[Foley]

Exactly. People talk about it all the time. How some, or most closers era jumps from save situations, to non-save situations. I guess the adreniline doesn't run as high in a tie, or losing game, which makes them lose their edge.

The idea that closers pitch much worse in non-save situations is just another baseball myth that will never die no matter how many times it is debunked. It is the case for a rare few like Borowski (as is the opposite true for others), but there is barely much of a difference league wide.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7134422

 

[Real World]

The idea that closers pitch much worse in non-save situations is just another baseball myth that will never die no matter how many times it is debunked. It is the case for a rare few like Borowski (as is the opposite true for others), but there is barely much of a difference league wide.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7134422

I guess you missed where I said "some or most" closers. I wasn't saying they were all that way.