"It's a business" blaaaaaaaaaah!

[InBillITrust]

Frankly, there's only one untouchable player on this team, and that's Tom Brady. And even he won't be untouchable in 5 years. The whole philosophy of BB's Patriots have been a middle class team who fit within the Patriots schemes. The Patriots really dislike having the top paid player at a position, and other than AV, I don't know if they have any. Even TB took a hometown discount, and if AV also took a hometown discount, I'm sure the Pats would have signed him to a long term deal in an instant. I think the Pats want Willie back, but there's a lot of competition for Willie with all of the former Pats coaches out there. Willie might be worth more to teams like the Jets or Browns in order to give those teams veteran and winning leadership, so those teams will probably be willing to overpay him. As fans, we just gotta move on and trust Bill. He'll always have us competing for the championship.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Maybe a glass of water? Perhaps you should sit down if the strain is too much for you.

Your nose is running.

Let Givens and McGinest go if they have to, but Adam should retire a Patriot. Some people here remind me of Orwell 1984 zombies.

It's a business...it's a business...it's a business.

 

[DaBruinz]

So you are saying, cutting Willie and Adam
(who won two superbowls in final seconds) will some how help the PATs
win a superbowl this year????????????????????????????

I 'll go with what I know works ..... THANK YOU!

JR-
Why do you insist on blowing things out of proportion? And why is it that when you get all emotional, you distort facts?

1) This was a dummy year for Willie. He knew it. He has said he knew it. He has said he expected to be cut. He said that there is no animosity. Why are you all bent out of shape?

2) Adam wasn't cut. Adam sat on his arse and didn't replace his agent until the beginning of February after Cornich got suspended. How can the Pats have contract discussions with a player who doesn't have an agent, but insists on using one? Also, since you missed it. Adam had a pretty mediocre year by AV standards.

Why do you insist on putting the SOLE blame on Patriots management? Does it make you feel better? The Players have as much responsibility in this as management, yet you seem to give them a free pass.

 

[IcyPatriot]

If it's a business .... a business makes its customers happy or it pay the
consequence.

I think we should all use patriots feedback form and select receipient as
"front office".

Tell them if you are unhappy and what that means in business terms so they
undersatnd. We want Willie! We want Adam!

I would love to still be rooting for Stanley Morgan, Ted Johnson, Sam Bam Cunningham, John Hannah, Ty Law, Tippet, blah...blah...blah.

So now I get to root for Brady, Watson, Graham, Hobbs, Wilson, Seymour, Mankins and others. It's nice to have favorites and it's nice to have new ones.

It's also nice to see players like McGinest get a big fat paycheck after sacrificing money to win the team a SB. You may be mad at them leaving, it's your right...but it is also a bit selfish...these 2 players especially owe us nothing and have given more than expected.

Your assumption they are mad to leave is misguided. A fat paycheck playing back in California in front of old friends, if Willie goes to the Chargers would probably put a big smile on his face...a well deserved one at that.

 

[DaBruinz]

I can't believe what I am hearing from some of the fans here.

You guys seem to think if Willie and Adam are gone it's OK if the team keeps winning.
I can agree with that
If PATs had to pay excessively I could see letting them go.

But Pats can pay a resonable amout to get it done and can keep on winning
and make those of us fans who regard Willie and Adam as very special
parts of the PATs family also happy in the process.

Make excusses for letting these guys walk .... you guys who have this
attitude can sit there when team chemstry is shot to hell can cry in your
beer.

Maybe that's it. Winning superbowls now seems easy .... so easy that
fans forget that it was the Players that made it happen ... it was the
chemistry of team that was responsible.

By forgetting that many here think ... Adam and Willie ... are just expendable.

Once again ... if their skills were in decline ... I would have no argument
... that is not the case.

When these two guys who we have seen do it over and over are gone
I will be very unhappy. Unhappy because I will feel that
two very important parts of my team are gone.

JR -
What you are missing is that MANY MANY people are fans of the TEAM, not necessarily the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER.

Also, how do you know that Adam's skills are not in decline. He had a very mediocre year, all things consisdered.

What you are also forgetting is that the game is won by a TEAM effort. To field that team, the Patriots have to be able to field the best players possible for the salary cap. That means losing some players. And, no offense, but only 1 player that the Patriots have released since BB has been here has gone on to have any sort of success for another team. That was Ty Law, last year.

I love McGinest. He's THE MAN when it comes to the locker-room in Foxboro. However, even he isn't upset about being cut. WHY ARE YOU?

 

[pats1]

Do you want some more cheese with that whine? I'm surprised there are still Pats fans who still don't understand salary cap and putting talent together. The Patriots win because they spend every dollar wisely. Every year they try to field the best 53 person team. This means never over-paying for any player above his value. Also, how can you AGREE that all is well if the Pats keep winning, yet still try to defend your point?

If we followed your strategy, the Pats would never have let go of Chris Slade, Drew Bledsoe, Ty Law, Milloy, and a bunch of other players as well who were fan favorites. The Pats would never have stuck with an unknown QB named Tom Brady, or tried to replace Milloy with Rodney Harrison.

Also, I think your letter is premature. Free agency hasn't started yet, and I don't know what you're complaining about. The Pats HAD to cut Willie and even he knew it was a dummy year, and also Adam's contract ran out. The last time I checked, neither of them have signed elsewhere.

So let's wait a month before talking about this. Nothing has happened yet. I'll repeat that: nothing has even happened yet.

.

EXACTLY my sentiments.

 

[JR4]

JR -
What you are missing is that MANY MANY people are fans of the TEAM, not necessarily the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER.
I understand that


Also, how do you know that Adam's skills are not in decline. He had a very mediocre year, all things consisdered.

I don't. And if that is the case and if is the case with Willie then
I am completely wrong. I said that above somewhere is some post.


What you are also forgetting is that the game is won by a TEAM effort. To field that team, the Patriots have to be able to field the best players possible for the salary cap. That means losing some players. And, no offense, but only 1 player that the Patriots have released since BB has been here has gone on to have any sort of success for another team. That was Ty Law, last year.

what about Milloy, Andruzzi, Washington and Woody and there are
others that were starters for other teams. I guess it depends on what
you mean by "any sort of success"



I love McGinest. He's THE MAN when it comes to the locker-room in Foxboro. However, even he isn't upset about being cut. WHY ARE YOU?

whatever Willie truely feels may not be known as he may not spill
his guts in public and as others have said it is too early yet. He may still
sign with the PATs.
I'm just down because I think these two players still have good years
ahead. If they are in decline then, I have nothing to complain about.
Do you think they are in decline, not as good as they once were,
have lost a step?

..........................................

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't. And if that is the case and if is the case with Willie then
I am completely wrong. I said that above somewhere is some post.

what about Milloy, Andruzzi, Washington and Woody and there are
others that were starters for other teams. I guess it depends on what
you mean by "any sort of success"

The jury is still out on Andruzzi. However, I don't consider Milloy, Woody, or Washington to have had success since they left.

Washington was supposed to help solidify the Raiders defense. The Raiders have had one of the worst defenses in the league the last 2 years. Woody was supposed to help solidify the Lions O-line.

Woody has given up more sacks in each of his two years in Det than he ever did as a Patriots (other than his rookie year). Also, Running to the Middle and Right side were the worst places for Kevin Jones in terms of yardage.

Milloy was on one of the worst defenses last year. He was part of the problem, not the solution.

whatever Willie truely feels may not be known as he may not spill
his guts in public and as others have said it is too early yet. He may still
sign with the PATs.
I'm just down because I think these two players still have good years
ahead. If they are in decline then, I have nothing to complain about.
Do you think they are in decline, not as good as they once were,
have lost a step?

So, What you are saying is that you feel that Willie is LYING when he said on NATIONAL RADIO that he feels no animosity towards the Patriots and that he knew that it was a dummy year at the end of his contract and that the Patriots would cut him?

IMHO, you are down because you are emotionally attached to the players and you are ignoring the salary cap ramifications. As someone else pointed , as the contracts stood, the Pats would have had to commit almost 11 million to Willie and Adam for this season. That is not financially prudent.

 

[pats1]

JR4 - I think you're totally overreacting to his release.

By being cut, it doesn't mean the world is over as we know it. Just like with Troy last year, it's just all part of the process. Hell, even Artrell Hawkins was "cut" a few days before he re-signed. It's something that's mainly all planned out. I can assure you 100% that the Pats just didn't walk up to Willie and say "We're going to have to cut you. Have a great rest of your career."

This wasn't like Milloy's cut insofar as it was right before the season and the final piece to setting up the roster. The Pats would have "cut" Willie even if they were $100 mil. under the cap. His cap number was just simply too high for any non-Brady player. Does that mean the Pats are lending him happy trails because he's purely too expensive? Of course not. He's essentially going to be restructured, unless he asks for anything as lucrative as his previous cap number.

How would you feel if Willie and Adam were re-signed tomorrow? Again, it's not like the Patriots have, in Adam's case, let him walk, or in Willie's case, cut him and swallowed the key to any further negotiations. Their fates are ANYTHING BUT sealed. Am I saying there's little chance the Pats will just move on? No. That could still happen. Has it? No. The Pats have just begun their offseason work and are approaching it in a manner conducive to the longevity of the clubhouse chemistry, as well as to future AND immediate success.

To think any and all emotional attachments between team and player have been severed as a result of the cut is a ludicrous assumption, as is thinking the Patriots are totally business and could care less about keeping these great players.

Although, on that note, I do think people need to remember that one negative side to so much success out of what was, to many, the bottom of the free agent barrel 4 years ago renders certain players which have built success simply too expensive to retain. The same goes with some Patriots draft picks that have overachieved on their slim contracts and should be replaced with more cost-effective, less proven alternatives.

The only thing I'll care about is the 53 (45) players who will take the field September 10th.

 

[Pats67]

Let Givens and McGinest go if they have to, but Adam should retire a Patriot. Some people here remind me of Orwell 1984 zombies.

It's a business...it's a business...it's a business.

Its professional sports....it's professional sports....its professional sports.....as they have been for 30+ years. Which makes it all the more confounding when some people act like they're still running down to the news stand to get the latest Sport Magazine for a quarter, and reading about what Bill Mazeroski is going to do with that sweet Corvette he won for being MVP. I'm sure there were a few Oakland A's fans who thought Catfish Hunter should have retired an A. That is simply not the way professional sports work anymore, and they haven't for a very long time.

The easiest cheapest shot to take is the 1984 business. Nobody's a zombie here. The Patriots just have to prove to me that their way of assembling a football team doesn't work, before I go all hysterical on them. I'd rather take that position instead of the position that acts as though these guys don't know what they're doing, regardless of the evidence otherwise.

 

[Pats67]

The only thing I'll care about is the 53 (45) players who will take the field September 10th.

Amen. Bless you.

 

[primetime]

Sure, but he also went too far by unloading Rice and Lott much too early. Even 49er loyalists (if there are any left) will say that.

He slipped up after five Super Bowls. I'll take that.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I don't know why everyone is so upset. So we'll probably lose a Hall of Fame kicker who has made a million clutch kicks in his career and we might lose Willie who is still very productive and a fan favorite.

But on the bright side we've re-signed Hawkins, so turn that frown upside down !

(sarcasm)

 

[maverick4]

re:

I'll give an example:

Brett Favre is beloved in Green Bay. He has been an icon for over a decade, and brought that city a championship, as well as several MVP seasons.

However, it is clear to everyone that Favre is over the hill. Going with another QB is the right move, but it is harder to do that than just let him keep playing. It would be very unpopular, because the fans love still Favre. The bottom line is, the GM up there doesn't have the balls to keep re-loading and fielding a championship-caliber team.

I feel this is a similar situation, in that fans are letting their emotions get in the way of what is most important - to keep reloading and collecting as much value as possible while spending all the way to the cap limit.

I will be the first to say that Willie and Adam still have a few years left in the tank, so it's not exactly the same situation, but my argument about sentimental values vs. business still applies (not paying any cost necessary to keep a player).

If we look back in one month, I expect Willie to re-up for a smaller amount, and give a 50/50 chance Adam ends up signing here. If either player goes, though, I fully expect the Pats to sign a younger, cheaper player to fill those spots (analagous to Coco Crisp - Johnny Damon).


.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I'll give an example:

Brett Favre is beloved in Green Bay. He has been an icon for over a decade, and brought that city a championship, as well as several MVP seasons.

However, it is clear to everyone that Favre is over the hill. Going with another QB is the right move, but it is harder to do that than just let him keep playing. It would be very unpopular, because the fans love still Favre. The bottom line is, the GM up there doesn't have the balls to keep re-loading and fielding a championship-caliber team.

I feel this is a similar situation, in that fans are letting their emotions get in the way of what is most important - to keep reloading and collecting as much value as possible while spending all the way to the cap limit.

I will be the first to say that Willie and Adam still have a few years left in the tank, so it's not exactly the same situation, but my argument about sentimental values vs. business still applies.

If we look back in one month, I expect Willie to re-up for a smaller amount, and give a 50/50 chance Adam ends up signing here. If either player goes, though, I fully expect the Pats to sign a younger, cheaper player to fill those spots (analagous to Coco Crisp - Johnny Damon).


.

Good post. I think Willie will be back, but I do worry about Parcells making a run at him for no other reason than to spite BB and Kraft. Adam is dunzo in NE in my opinion. The first true Hall of Fame free agent we've lost in the BB era. I don't think we can minimize that. It's HUGE.

As for the emotion, I think that's a big part of sports and that's obviously going to be reflected on a message board during times like this.

There are fans on this board and others who show no emotion, have no favorite players and care just as much or more about the business end of the team as they do about what actually happens on the field.

In a way that's sort of weird and unfortunate because emotion, the highs and lows, are what make being a fan a great experience. It's so much more rewarding than being robotic and really not caring at all if a HOF kicker or beloved player like Willie leaves the team. But to each their own. I guess we all have our own way of looking at it.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I don't know why everyone is so upset. So we'll probably lose a Hall of Fame kicker who has made a million clutch kicks in his career and we might lose Willie who is still very productive and a fan favorite.

But on the bright side we've re-signed Hawkins, so turn that frown upside down !

(sarcasm)

I don't think that you needed to add "sarcasm'. Even someone as slow as me got the point.

Anyway, I have complete trust in BB and Scott. These guy are all about winning championships. Anything less is a failure to them.

Once I came to back to the propective, I've become very calm about both Adam and Wille. Hate to lose them, but that is professional sports today.

 

[maverick4]

There are fans on this board and others who show no emotion, have no favorite players and care just as much or more about the business end of the team as they do about what actually happens on the field.

In a way that's sort of weird and unfortunate because emotion, the highs and lows, are what make being a fan a great experience. It's so much more rewarding than being robotic and really not caring at all if a HOF kicker or beloved player like Willie leaves the team. But to each their own. I guess we all have our own way of looking at it.

Hey, I'm one of those guys who has every single Pats DVD and watches them on a semi-weekly basis just for kicks. Don't get me wrong - I love these Patriots players (in a strictly heterosexual way; not that there's anything wrong with that hehe). Big Willie and Adam are two of my favorite Boston athletes.

But I realize that I love championships more than any specific player (except for Tom Brady). I think the reason I feel this way is I was a big Bledsoe fan and thought he did a great deal to legitimize the franchise since he was drafted, and that he took the Pats to a superbowl. I was also a huge Nomar fan, having followed him all the way back when he was in the minors. But when the Pats and Sox won those championships, I realized that THOSE were the emotional highs and lows that I loved. I loved the snow game (greatest kick in history), the improbable superbowl win (Ty Law interception TD!!), the 3 down 4 straight comeback in the ALCS (Dave Roberts steal), all those experiences of rooting for a TEAM, more than any individual player.

If the Pats end up signing younger versions of Willie and Adam and those players end up doing great things next year, it will feel weird for you initially, but you will know what I am talking about regarding loyalty to players.

.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Hey, I'm one of those guys who has every single Pats DVD and watches them on a semi-weekly basis just for kicks. Don't get me wrong - I love these Patsriot players (in a strictly heterosexual way; not that there's anything wrong with that hehe). Big Willie and Adam are two of my favorite Boston athletes.

But I realize that I love championships more than any specific player (except for Tom Brady). I think the reason I feel this way is I was a big Bledsoe fan and thought he did a great deal to legitimize the franchise since he was drafted, and that he took the Pats to a superbowl. I was also a huge Nomar fan, having followed him all the way back when he was in the minors. But when the Pats and Sox won those championships, I realized that THOSE were the emotional highs and lows that I loved. I loved the snow game (greatest kick in history), the improbably superbowl win (Ty Law interception TD!!), the 3 down 4 straight comeback in the ALCS (Dave Roberts steal), all those experiences of rooting for a TEAM, more than any individual player.

If the Pats end up signing younger versions of Willie and Adam and those players end up doing great things next year, it will feel weird for you initially, but you will know what I am talking about regarding loyalty to players.

.

I wasn't talking about you Maverick. If you think for a minute the people Im talking about should be pretty obvious. There's about 2 or 3 regular posters that fit that bill. And for the record, that's their business. It's just another way of viewing the team and to each their own.

As for Willie, this one cuts deep for me. His jersey is the only Pats jersey I have ever owned or will ever own. It's going to be agonizing to watch to see if he comes back. I understand the business aspect of it completely. But like you, I've developed favorites over the years and to people who have actual blood running through their veins, and enjoy particular players, it is, at least for the moment, troubling to watch their future with the team hang in the balance.

But really, Adam will be the bigger loss. As I said earlier we've lost FAs before under BB -- guys like Woody, Andruzzi and Law. But AV is the only probable HOFer we've lost during that time. I don't think we should over pay for him, nor do I think his potential loss should be marginalized like some have done.

 

[maverick4]

re

Point taken.

It does suck, I completely agree.

Let's hope both of them don't chase top dollar and come back, like Troy Brown did, so they can retire as Patriots.

.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

It absolutely does suck, but in a way it's also part of the experience. I just try to strike a balance, realizing business sometimes gets in the way of things.

I would also add that the posters who care about the business end do drive me nuts in one area. If anyone expresses even a shred of remorse about losing a favorite player their standard reply is "so you care more about so and so than you do about winning SBs?"

On a much smaller level, that's the same line of thinking/debate we as a country went through at the start of the Iraq war. To the pro-war crowd, if you didn't like us going to war you hated America and wanted the terrorists to win. On the flip side, the anti-war folks would say everyone who was in favor of the war were jingonistic douchebags.

It really doesn't have to be an either/or, black and white thing.