"It's a business" blaaaaaaaaaah!

[desi-patsfan]

In my opinion, Adam and Willie will be loved by me forever. THey were both instrumental in us winning 3 superbowls. IF both of them feel that the time has come for them to go after the big bucks then by all means i wish they good luck. I hope they both come back but if they dont, i'll still root for them when they arnt facing the pats.

 

[sarge]

I commented on this before. Miguel pointed out that the offer the PATs
made and which you are refering to, did not have any guaranteed money.
Adam wants a muliple year deal with security .....guaranteed money.

BTW, making Adam the highest paid kicker does not mean they would
have to pay excessively.

What exactly then would you consider excessive?

 

[JR4]

What exactly then would you consider excessive?

That's the question isn't it? I am sure they have a top figure.
I seen some fans say they would pay Adam 4M some say 3M.
Everyone has their own concept of excessive (too much).
I would say anything in the 2M to less than 3M range is not too much.
But some can argue going 3M to 3.5M for the best money kicker in the
league is not excessive if you can afford it (CAP wise ).
I'll turn the tables and ask you,
If PATs loose a playoff game because of a missed FG , would 4M be
too excessive for the foot that would have made it?

 

[Pats726]

If PATs loose a playoff game because of a missed FG , would 4M be too excessive for the foot that would have made it?

That would depend on what players would NOT be there for that amount...you can not just look at it that way..take away a few players and they might not be in that position to even attempt a field goal...

 

[texpat]

It is a business and the job of the team is to put the best combination of players within the salary structure on the field each week.

It is cruel, nasty, unloyal and any other word you wish to use.

The teams that do this the best will win, the others won't.

The old baseball adage:

"It is always better to trade a player too early than too late."

IMO this applies even moreso with releasing or letting players go in football. It is a young man's game.

 

[smg93]

If PATs loose a playoff game because of a missed FG , would 4M be too excessive for the foot that would have made it?

That's really a tough hypothetical question to pose because someone might say we could have used the 1-2 Million saved by signing another kicker and spent it on a Javon Walker for instance who is only scheduled to make 1.15 milion for the 2006 season. If we had Javon in this hypothetical playoff game, maybe we wouldn't need a FG to win.

 

[PATSNUTme]

This horse is getting beaten over and over again.

 

[patsfan13]

I don't relish losing either Willie or Adam ...or Givins or Neil for that matter. How ever both the players and owners have agred to a set of rules that designates a certain amount of money for player salaries.

The team has to decide how to spread that pool of money among the players. IF they "overpay" for player A that leaves less money for player B. IF all players had the same value they would spread the $102M among the 53 players so a little under 2M/player. IF they give $4 mil to 1 player then that means 3 other players get $1M each.

The team had to decide how to spread that money among the players. AV turned down $2.5mil+, Willie would have cost ~$8mil. That's ~10% of the entire cap for the team. The FO feels that is too much. Given their track record I have no reanson to disagree. The Pats have had more $1M + players on their roster than ANY other team in the league, given the short span of NFL careers I think that is a good thing.

If the team weren't spending all the cap money they could on the players you'd have a legit complaint, however they spend up to the cap every year. The team has to decide what they can afford on each player, the player has to decide if that amount is what they want to take.

I hope we can keep these guys, but wish them the best if they determine going elsewhere is the right thing for them and their families. I would note that most Pats who have left via FA haven't had a lot of success on their new teams.

 

[Alk]

I think this is a perfect example of why none of us are running the organization. We can't seperate ourselves from the emotional aspect of it all. I couldn't cut any of these guys on my madden franchise while paying them $10 million a season let alone in real life. I can understand why it was done though. I'll still cheer for both of them no matter where they play but I'm a Patriots fan first.

 

[Ring 6]

So you are saying, cutting Willie and Adam
(who won two superbowls in final seconds) will some how help the PATs
win a superbowl this year????????????????????????????

I 'll go with what I know works ..... THANK YOU!

What is your point then?

It started that you were sad they were leaving.

It has turned into disagreeing with Belichicks decisions on the best way to win.

First, you say the Pats DECIDED to not resign AV. When? They have been negotiating with him.

IIf AV was asking 30mill a year, would you be plssed at the Pats for not giving it to him? Im sure you wouldnt.

By saying they are wrong to not give him whatever he wants (which is your impication) you are saying you disagree with BBs decision of how much money spent on AV gives him the best chance to win.

Perhaps that is what you are saying, that you disagree with BBs idea of building a team, but it isnt coming out that way.

Same with McGinest. If you think keeping him at an 8mill cap # gives us the best chance to win, you arent paying attention, IMO.

Your post seems to ignore that there is a salary cap. There is no such thing as a team keeping its fans happy at a higher cost, because the cost is FIXED by the cap. Its just a matter of how it is split up.

To be upset over this would have to mean one of 2 things:

1) You disagree that the decisions should be made with only winning in mind or
2) You disagree with BBs decision making to carry out #1

 

[Ring 6]

That's the question isn't it? I am sure they have a top figure.
I seen some fans say they would pay Adam 4M some say 3M.
Everyone has their own concept of excessive (too much).
I would say anything in the 2M to less than 3M range is not too much.
But some can argue going 3M to 3.5M for the best money kicker in the
league is not excessive if you can afford it (CAP wise ).
I'll turn the tables and ask you,
If PATs loose a playoff game because of a missed FG , would 4M be
too excessive for the foot that would have made it?

On the other hand if we pay 800,000 for a kicker and he doesnt miss that FG wasnt it smart?

Im not devaluing AV, but you simply cannot take something that has an 80% success rate and say the guy with the 80% success rate will succeed and anyone you replace him with will fail.

Here is another scenario. A key player gets injured. If we did not resign AV we would have used the money possibly for depth at that position. Whatif its a back up QB for 4 mill a year? If we kept AV, and didnt have depth, he would never get the chance to kick a playoff FG.

The reality is that AV has earned a lot of respect here. But kickers typically dont win games. They may be the guy who kicks the gamewinning FG, but the other 52 players had to get him there. When its an 80% success rate, how much worth is there in the guy making the kick COMPARED TO strengthening the team on offense and defense?
Kickers dont lose games either.

Sure, it is great to have him IF we need a super-clutch kicker. But when have we? Sure, the snow bowl. But the SB kicks were pretty routine, but for pressure. He did his job. Why would we assume the next best guy we can find cant do his job?

 

[primetime]

Willie has said he was NOT expecting the 8M.

Well, uh, if they didn't cut him he was getting it...

Bill Walsh created a dynasty in the 80's by not getting attached to players and being willing to unload fan favorites.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You may have a point on Adam but consider this. The more they offered him the more they raised his eventual market - because Adam seemed to be a guy determined to test the market and possibly set the market for kickers once he did get the opportunity to be a FA. He's been unable to test that market for 10 years because of the franchise tag. Unless they tagged him again or blew him away with a precedent setting offer, he was going to. Period.

In Willie's case while I'm sure his teamates want to see him stay, human nature being what it is there would be a few noses out of joint if he were staying at $7M in salary and $8M+ on the cap - and a different level of expectation from them going forward as a result. Bruschi and Vrabel together take up less than $6M on the cap, as does Colvin. Bruschi and Vrabel together will earn just over half of what Willie would have, as will Colvin. Keeping Willie at the current numbers would have thrown the LB salary structure out the window and would have set a horrible precedent going forward. And that is the business end of football. Ignore it at your own peril. I'm sure both sides discussed a reasonable compromise but apparently couldn't reach a concensus on what that was prior to yesterday. It's likely better for both sides at this point to get the bonus + salary = $8M+ cap out of the way and start from scratch.

I still think there is a good chance both players will be back at deals they and the team can live with. If not then I'm, glad they were here when they were. If the team lowballs them I'll be annoyed, and if they chase every last dollar I'll feel the same way about them.

 

[smg93]

Sure, it is great to have him IF we need a super-clutch kicker. But when have we? Sure, the snow bowl.

I agree with your post but truth be told, with the number of close games we won throughout the last few seasons, it was great to have him as our kicker. But that's exactly why the PATS made him the highest paid kicker for a number of years now and were willing to keep doing so if reports of that pre free agency offer were true.

 

[jimleehunt]

JR4=freakin spoiled whiner

Posted by jr4:
I want two of my favorite players back and I am having a hard time
understanding why they have to go. I am not happy about it.[/QUOTE]

awww-youre not happy about it. too freakin bad. take your sorry arse to indy and be a colts fan. I am sick of whiners like you who dont appreciate what they have-or have any understanding of how the pats got where they are to begin with.

 

[JR4]

What is your point then?
......
1) You disagree that the decisions should be made with only winning in mind or
2) You disagree with BBs decision making to carry out #1

Amazing twisting and turning and re-wording.

Whatever AJ.

I am simply not happy that AV and McGinest may not be part of the PATs
next year.

I do not think an offer to AV without guaranteed money is the way you say
thanks Adam ... and we still want you .... you're one of our most important
players.

It's like saying
1. AV you are still good enough that we want you.
2. We will pay you more than any other Kicker because you are worth it
and we have the CAP space to do it.
3. However, none of it is guaranteed money because we want to cut you
without penality if we so desire.

How is that gotcha, #3 above,
"a decision made with only winning in mind" ?

Perhaps it is and perhaps they should do it to all contracts .... no guaranteed
money for any player over 32. How's that for a philosophy carried to
an extreme?

Maybe BB/SP think AV and Willie have slipped and are on the decline.
If so then I am all wrong. But then why offer top dollar if that is the case?
Willie sure didn't seem to decline last year.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Well, uh, if they didn't cut him he was getting it...

Bill Walsh created a dynasty in the 80's by not getting attached to players and being willing to unload fan favorites.

Sure, but he also went too far by unloading Rice and Lott much too early. Even 49er loyalists (if there are any left) will say that.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

This has to be the worst thread topic ever! Wow. It is a business, and the Patriots' business is winning. We all have favorite players. But, the bottom line is that I would much rather watch the Patriots as a team hoist another Lombardi trophy in February than watch a team of favorite players lose in round 1 or earlier. The Patriots would absolutely LOVE to keep these guys, but they are smart enough not to overpay for them. That is the sign that they are doing things right. You don't want to buy a hat because of it? That's cool. I'll buy three. Division Champs. AFC Champs. Super Bowl Champs.

What if the player on the bubble is named Tom Brady?

I agree with JR4 with regard to Vinatieri. I mean, even Parcells said he can be Orr, Havlicek, Yaz in New England. Maybe not quite up with those guys because he's "only a kicker", but the 45 yarder in the snow vs. Oakland to tie it is up there with any single Celtics, Red Sox or Patriots play in history. You have to retire a guy like that as a Patriot.

 

[Pats67]

Can I get you a tissue?

 

[Pats67]

Maybe a glass of water? Perhaps you should sit down if the strain is too much for you.

Your nose is running.