Is the all time Patriot team the best all time team? I think so.

[PatsFanInVa]

I'll take "what would have been@ for Rob Edwards, if any sample size is acceptable.

 

[Nehalem]

I\
WR - Even if the Pats count Moss their all time WR list as far as depth of stars pales in comparison to others. The Pats have had maybe 2 great WRs... maybe. Other teams have had 4 or 5.

30 year Moss was essentially uncoverable in the first half of the 2007 season. Prime Moss with Prime Brady...

You also left out Wes Welker. Who if not for missing most of 3 games in 2009 probably sets the record for most receptions in a season.

Pretty much Prime Moss + Prime Brady + Prime Welker + Prime Gronk, and you could put out Matthew Slater as the 3rd receiver and it wouldn't matter

 

[The_Riddler]

I think there is an argument. Depending on how many years you need to be here to be considered an all time Patriots a real argument.


QB - Brady
RB - Cunningham, Martin, Faulk (3rd down)
TE - Gronk, Coates
WR - Moss, Morgan, Fryer, Edelman
OL - Holloway Hannah Morris Mankins, Armstrong

DL - Seymour, Wilfork, Houston Antwine, Bob D, Jim Hunt
LB - Tippett, Buoniconti, Hightower, Bruschi, Nelson, McGinest(swing man)
CB - Haynes, Law, Butler
S - McCourty, Harrison, Milloy

K - Adam V.
All rounder for back up duty - Gino Cappelletti
Coach - BB

I didn't fill out a full 53 but the guys who would see the field the most and the reason so many DL and LBs was to have the 3-4 or 4-3 option.

We can debate guys over other guys but I am trying to imagine this team vs others.

Pats Edge

QB - advantage over any team period
TE - advantage over any team period

Those 2 spots are clear where the all time Pats have the edge with a devastating 1-2 combo in pass catching and run blocking TEs and the best QB. A big reason the Pats might be the best all time team is the fact I don't think any other all time team has the edge in 2 spots. That is huge.

In the mix with the best units.

DBs - as good as anyone - Maybe a few teams are as good but I don't know if I would consider any as having better DBs.
OL - as good as anyone - Maybe I would give all time Broncos or Dallas an edge but is is very close and close enough to put this group against the other elite squads.
K - Adam V is clutch within 50 but the distance means a few guys could be argued to be just as good. In certain situations he is the best. Kicking it out the back of the end zone? Nope. But as good as any kicker.

Lacking

WR - Even if the Pats count Moss their all time WR list as far as depth of stars pales in comparison to others. The Pats have had maybe 2 great WRs... maybe. Other teams have had 4 or 5.
RB - The Pats have had a lot of good RBs but no Jim Brown or Payton or Sanders transcendent player. They can't compete in that area.
LB - Tippett is a top 10 all time guy but other teams with 10 top guys have more talent behind them.
DL - The Pats have never been a team with amazing pass rushers. Their best is probably Tippett and that doesn't bode well.

STs? Who knows it is hard to say. But i like the Pats. They have had some good returners and coverage guys and punters. I will not go into all of that but the unit all time is fairly solid.

While other teams may boast more HOFers and some sexier names this all time Pats team might be the best particularly with modern NFL rules that make it a passing game.

Rodney Harrison's name should be FIRST in that safety list.

 

[supafly]

This team certainly has the potential to be one of the greatest, but they haven't even gone through TC yet, let alone played any games.

I will expect the usual 12-4 type of record as long as they're healthy, with a good shot at securing HFA and making a strong postseason push. For those expectations, I am insanely grateful.

 

[DarrylS]

Difficult to argue against this team, however it is interesting to note how many of the players are from the BB era.. prior to that a variety of nitwits "did the shopping" to the chagrin of many of us old timers..

 

[PatsFanInVa]

This team certainly has the potential to be one of the greatest, but they haven't even gone through TC yet, let alone played any games.

I will expect the usual 12-4 type of record as long as they're healthy, with a good shot at securing HFA and making a strong postseason push. For those expectations, I am insanely grateful.

2 things:
1 - read the opening post, the op is talking about whether greatest Pats all time would be the greatest team all time (multi years, multi eras)

2 - you said "the usual 12-4" above. Often in "predict our record" type threads I've said something like "12-4 because it's just hubris to take the over on 12-4."

Then I realized something... but check records, I am posting from phone and can't (not easily)

You'd have to check the median and mean seasons... depending which you use, it's possible that 12-4, benchmarking by last 10 yrs, would be a "down" year.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

I'm not sure about Edelman over Welker considering the rest of the WR corps. Obviously he had the better career and we'd probably take Edelman over Welker but I think we forget how lethal Wes was; his play out of the slot with Moss and Morgan would be insane. Wouldn't be opposed to Troy Brown either

 

[ivanvamp]

I can't speak to the offensive lines of some of the other teams, but there would be a lot of competition for the best all-franchise teams, IMO.

Dallas would be absolutely awesome on both sides of the ball. So would San Francisco. Pittsburgh too but I think their QB situation isn't all-time great (no, I don't put Bradshaw in the same category as Brady and Montana, for example). Denver would be pretty loaded too. But I think the all-time Patriots team would be incredible for sure.

 

[BlacknGold77]

I'm not sure about Edelman over Welker considering the rest of the WR corps. Obviously he had the better career and we'd probably take Edelman over Welker but I think we forget how lethal Wes was; his play out of the slot with Moss and Morgan would be insane. Wouldn't be opposed to Troy Brown either

Im confused, are you saying Edelman has had a better career than Wes?

In 6 years here Wes had 672 receptions (franchise record) and 7,459 yards. Receptions per year were 112, 111, 123, 86 (in 11 games), 122, 118. In 10 less games as a Patriot, Wes has 230 more receptions and 2,200 more yards than Edelman. Wes had 5 100 rec seasons and 5 1000yd seasons here. Edelman has 1 100 rec season and 2 1000yd seasons.

Now, if we are talking about who you take in a playoff game? Sure, I'll take Edelman there (really would take Amendola over both of them)

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Im confused, are you saying Edelman has had a better career than Wes?

In 6 years here Wes had 672 receptions (franchise record) and 7,459 yards. Receptions per year were 112, 111, 123, 86 (in 11 games), 122, 118. In 10 less games as a Patriot, Wes has 230 more receptions and 2,200 more yards than Edelman. Wes had 5 100 rec seasons and 5 1000yd seasons here. Edelman has 1 100 rec season and 2 1000yd seasons.

Now, if we are talking about who you take in a playoff game? Sure, I'll take Edelman there (really would take Amendola over both of them)

I think in the sense of "Patriots lore" most fans would take Edelman over Welker, that's really what I meant. He's the Tom Brady to Welker's Peyton Manning when it comes to the playoffs, though that might be a bit harsh. Huge factor in many key wins like Baltimore in 2014. But in this specific composition of an all-time Patriots offense I would take Welker. Edelman seems a bit "redundant" compared to what Welker would bring with this hypothetical offense

 

[BTTA]

This raises the inevitable question of athletic generations. The guys playing now have a big advantage over the guys who played 20 years ago. You couldn't put a lot of the stars of the 1960's and 1970's on the field today; they'd get dominated. The 2017 Pats roster might be better than the all time Dallas or Pittsburgh roster of those decades.

 

[primetime]

Only if you include everyone who ever was on the Patriots.

QB - Brady
RB - Martin, Dillon, S.Jackson, Faulk
TE - Gronk, Coates, Francis
WR - Moss, Wayne, Holt, Welker, Morgan
OL - Armstrong, Hannah, Morris, Mankins, Light

DL - Seymour, Wilfork, McGinest, Washington
LB - Tippett, Buoniconti, Seau, Bruschi, Hightower
CB - Revis, Haynes, Law, Butler
S - Lynch, Harrison, A.Wilson

K - Vinatieri

 

[BlacknGold77]

Only if you include everyone who ever was on the Patriots.

QB - Brady
RB - Martin, Dillon, S.Jackson, Faulk
TE - Gronk, Coates, Francis
WR - Moss, Wayne, Holt, Welker, Morgan
OL - Armstrong, Hannah, Morris, Mankins, Light

DL - Seymour, Wilfork, McGinest, Washington
LB - Tippett, Buoniconti, Seau, Bruschi, Hightower
CB - Haynes, Law, Butler
S - Lynch, Harrison, A.Wilson

K - Vinatieri

going with your rules, Revis over Butler and it isnt remotely close

 

[primetime]

going with your rules, Revis over Butler and it isnt remotely close

Oh yeah, didn't even think of that. Revis over Haynes and Law, even, and that's no skin to those guys.

 

[ivanvamp]

Think about the corners that the Patriots have had over the years. Literally some of the best ever.

Haynes
Revis (one year only but a total stud and they won the SB with him as their #1 CB)
Clayborn
Law
Butler
Samuel

Imagine being able to match up with another team's 5 WR set a CB group of Haynes, Revis, Clayborn, Law, and Butler? Good grief.

 

[BobDigital]

Well there are different rules to build your all time Pats team but I would personally feel you need to be a player who considers yourself more of a "Patriot first" if you were with other teams and also you only get to be as good as you were when you were here.

That is just my feeling on it. That is why I put Moss as a Patriot (and the shortest tendered one) cause he was great here for a time and also when you see him on TV these days he seems to talk more about being a Patriot and roots for the Patriots more than the Vikings which gives me the feel he would rather go in the Pats HOF than Vikings HOF. If he truly considers himself a Viking I don't think you can include him but i honestly feel that is not the case with him even though he had 7 years there and 3 here (which is weird but maybe he never liked it there).

As for other all time teams Dallas and SF and GB and Denver I think would be the teams right there with the Pats. Also I will say again I consider how these teams would play in the modern NFL.

Dallas all-stars led by Staubach be deadly. SF all stars lead by Montana or Young be deadly. GB all stars led by Starr or Rodgers be deadly. Denver all stars led by Elway be deadly.

Steelers? Loaded but QB imo be Roethlisberger who even in his prime is barely HOF worthy and not super scary.

Miami? Don't trust Marino. What can i say? He is great but something about him leads me to believe that wouldn't work for them. Also their D be amazing but their O would be one of the worst all time offenses oddly enough even with him.

Giants? Be interesting but the QB situation is iffy. I don't think Tarkenton is a Giant really and Tittle really isn't either. So they will be headed by Eli? As stacked as they might be it make them less scary than other teams that are also loaded but with elite QBs.

Personally I feel when it comes to all time teams it is Pats/SF/GB/Dallas is tier 1 with the Pats being the best. While they don't have the depth of HOF talent other teams do they certainly have some all time players that can compete particularly in a pass first league.

However I will add in a more 1970s style NF L game the Pats would be at a disadvantage.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Wow Bob. chock-full of football argument fodder... the big ring-bearer for Dallas (Aikman) is no Staubach... well, he was more "special" but I don't know what I even mean by that. At lunch, can't do stats, but I'm sure we're end up with the other argument fodder... the era vs. era stats problem...

Good point about "what's a Patriot"

Would be great to put together a "Peak Patriots" team using the broadest possibly definitions, and counting the "peak" year of a given player. But then again... what's Peak Brady?

We have 5 postseasons to choose from. Can we use Peak Brady (regular season) and Peak Brady (post season) at QB?

 

[patchick]

This Cowboys team would be mighty tough. Is there any position besides QB and TE where the Patriots have the clear edge?

QB: Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman
RB: Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith
WR: Michael Irvin, Drew Pearson, Bob Hayes, Dez Bryant
TE: Jason Witten, Jay Novacek
OL: Rayfield Wright, Larry Allen, Mark Stepnowski, Nate Newton, Ralph Neely

DT: Randy White, Bob Lilly, Charles Haley, Harvey Martin, Too Tall Jones
LB: DeMarcus Ware, Chuck Howley, Lee Roy Jordan, Ken Norton Jr.
CB: Deion Sanders, Everson Walls, Mel Renfro
S: Darren Woodson, Cliff Harris

 

[BobDigital]

This Cowboys team would be mighty tough. Is there any position besides QB and TE where the Patriots have the clear edge?

QB: Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman
RB: Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith
WR: Michael Irvin, Drew Pearson, Bob Hayes, Dez Bryant
TE: Jason Witten, Jay Novacek
OL: Rayfield Wright, Larry Allen, Mark Stepnowski, Nate Newton, Ralph Neely

DT: Randy White, Bob Lilly, Charles Haley, Harvey Martin, Too Tall Jones
LB: DeMarcus Ware, Chuck Howley, Lee Roy Jordan, Ken Norton Jr.
CB: Deion Sanders, Everson Walls, Mel Renfro
S: Darren Woodson, Cliff Harris

They'd be tough for sure.

I would say

QB: Pats
RB: Cowboys
WR: Depends (if we count Moss... Pats if not Dallas)
TE: Pats
OL: Cowboys (close)

DL: Cowboys
LB: Pats (kind of surprising Dallas doesn't have a better LB history)
CB: Cowboys (close)
S: Pats (close)

Coaching: Pats

I think it be a great game.

We need to remember though the starters will play most of the snaps so these rosters are top heavy. When you look at just starters and a few key backups the Pats are up there with Dallas and if it gets into a passing game have the edge. Great job putting that list of players together by the way.

 

[BlacknGold77]

They'd be tough for sure.

I would say

QB: Pats
RB: Cowboys
WR: Depends (if we count Moss... Pats if not Dallas)
TE: Pats
OL: Cowboys (close)

DL: Cowboys
LB: Pats (kind of surprising Dallas doesn't have a better LB history)
CB: Cowboys (close)
S: Pats (close)

Coaching: Pats

I think it be a great game.

We need to remember though the starters will play most of the snaps so these rosters are top heavy. When you look at just starters and a few key backups the Pats are up there with Dallas and if it gets into a passing game have the edge. Great job putting that list of players together by the way.

question is who coaches Dallas? Jimmie or Landry.

If it's Landry, thats a razor thin coaching matchup with Belichick.

Landry invented the 4-3 defense, was 270-178-6, over 16 years went to 12 NFCCG, 3 SB and won 2