Is Cassel's future determined already?

[ctpatsfan77]

After the top 2 QB's go quickly in this draft, which they will, if Childress doesn't pick up the phone for Cassel either then or before then, because he's banking on TJackson, then he can kiss his tail good-bye.

I don't know that such a trade would even be possible on draft day. After all, he'd have to come to terms with Cassel and the Pats.

I expect that Cassel will be traded before the draft.

 

[tombonneau]

Look, I like Cassel, I think he's an excellent QB, but I also know that if he didn't have Moss and ESPECIALLY Wes Welker in this offense, not to mention the tudorship of a great OC in McDaniels (Never underestimate that), then he clearly would not have had the kind of success he had this season. If you put Cassel in that KC offense, without a McDaniels and a Moss and a Welker, you will get different results my friend, I don't see how you could say you wouldn't.

I think people here are underestimating the KC offense. Gonzo is still a top 3 TE with probably 2 seasons in him. Bowe is one of the better up-and-coming WRs in the league. Mark Bradley is a decent #2 WR. And LJ, while not the stud of 2 years ago, is still an above-average RB. To top it off, they drafted a LT who looks very promising.

They are a few OL, a complementary RB and NFL QB away from having a very good offense.

If I were Pioli, I'd make a move for Cassel and sign one of Sproles or Leon Washington to complement LJ. Then work my magic in the draft to find a few quality OL which he always seemed to do in NE.

 

[Synovia]

They are a few OL, a complementary RB and NFL QB away from having a very good offense.

So, basically, they're at the same place as Detroit: Not even close.

 

[Synovia]

IMO the Chiefs need more than just a QB and would be better served using their first and even second on some Talent other than QB and go with Thigpen for a year or two giving him a chance and giving the orginization time to find a better one while also improving the whole roster. .

QBs have long careers. Most other positions don't. You find the QB first, and then you build around it, because otherwise, you'll never get the QB.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

"rating" and "value" are two different things. Minnesota and Kansas City could have equal "rating"; it's the "value" the guy can bring for future success.

This board is correct in that Minnesota is the ideal location. If Cassel could do a 18-25/210-250 yards/ 20-25 touchdowns per year; his "value" is much higher since the Vikings are in the game.

Those same stats in KC may get them to 4 wins. With LJ under a long term expensive contract, better value would be in drafting offensive lineman.

There is also the question of KC's run defense.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Look, I like Cassel, I think he's an excellent QB, but I also know that if he didn't have Moss and ESPECIALLY Wes Welker in this offense, not to mention the tudorship of a great OC in McDaniels (Never underestimate that), then he clearly would not have had the kind of success he had this season. If you put Cassel in that KC offense, without a McDaniels and a Moss and a Welker, you will get different results my friend, I don't see how you could say you wouldn't.

This is not to bash Cassel at all. It's just that I think Pioli would rather pay much less money to a Mark Sanchez who he could develop in a 2-3 years as the rest of the team develops and leave enough FA cash to help build the team while Sanchez grows. KC is 3 years away at this point. Cassel is a guy who can help a team "right now", those teams being Minn, SF and Tampa. Pioli doesn't need this fixed right now like 4-eyes over in Minnesota does or else he's out. After the top 2 QB's go quickly in this draft, which they will, if Childress doesn't pick up the phone for Cassel either then or before then, because he's banking on TJackson, then he can kiss his tail good-bye.

You forget who Pioli's father in law is....the guy who took the 1 and 15 Fins to the playoffs in one year.....by acquiring a good QB who has won in the league Chad P. In the NFL you have to win now and with the rash of coaching changes you are not given much time to turn things around. Pioli wants to win next season and with a quality draft last year guys like Albert, Dorsey and Flowers will be even better their second year in the league. I think that Pioli could trade TG to us with their second round pick and a conditional pick in 2010 depending on how well Cassel does in KC. That would give KC a QB with two back-up with game experience. They could use their top pick on one of the best OT (Smith, Oher). I think Pioli will address the defense in FA but just like his father in law Bill Parcells he will want to win now.

 

[Synovia]

This is not to bash Cassel at all. It's just that I think Pioli would rather pay much less money to a Mark Sanchez who he could develop in a 2-3 years as the rest of the team develops and leave enough FA cash to help build the team while Sanchez grows.

Sanchez is not going to get "much less money". Ryan got 74 Million over 6. Sanchez will get more than that.


That being said, Cassel's ceiling, IMO, is just as high as Sanchez's, and his floor is a lot higher.


Sanchez has only started 17 games in his college career. Take a look at the QBs drafted in the first round with anywhere near that few. They're ALL busts.


17 Starts is not enough times for Scouts to find all the flaws in a player's game. You want players who started 40ish games, like Manning 1, Rivers, etc.


HEre's the list of QBs with under 30 starts drafted in the first round: Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Alex Smith. Sanchez would have the least of all of them.

 

[upstater1]

Sanchez is not going to get "much less money". Ryan got 74 Million over 6. Sanchez will get more than that.


That being said, Cassel's ceiling, IMO, is just as high as Sanchez's, and his floor is a lot higher.


Sanchez has only started 17 games in his college career. Take a look at the QBs drafted in the first round with anywhere near that few. They're ALL busts.


17 Starts is not enough times for Scouts to find all the flaws in a player's game. You want players who started 40ish games, like Manning 1, Rivers, etc.


HEre's the list of QBs with under 30 starts drafted in the first round: Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Alex Smith. Sanchez would have the least of all of them.

Miguel has a thread on here showing Matt Ryan's real money is much less than that, about a third.

If I'm Pioli, I don't take the risk of trading a top pick for Cassel, so I can pay him tons of money, while one of the rookie QBs becomes Carson Palmer.

 

[BradyManny]

It's a silly argument to say "how would he do without good receivers or a solid O-Line"? No team is going to look for a QB that make a completely sucky offense look good. Brady might be the ONLY QB who can. Even Peyton has always had weapons.

It's not silly. The 2007 Patriots offense was the greatest offense in history. Matt Cassel will not be taking over for another offense that can say it is the greatest offense in history. The team scored 32 less touchdowns (thats 2 touchdowns a game) with him at QB against a much weaker schedule. I'm sorry, but you have to take the context around Cassel into the equation when evaluating him. There's no doubt he passes the eyeball test - he was accurate, mentally tough, and made great decisions.

But there are questions around him. But yes, if I'm another GM, and I'm sitting at #20 in the draft and looking at trading for Cassel or drafting Sanchez, its a no brainer, its Cassel. There is no doubt Cassel is a much safer pick than the rookie QBs. That's why we'll probably get a day 1 pick for him. But he's no sure thing either and I doubt he's going to light it up at his next destination. He'll probably put up solid numbers, but I warn you that your expectations (and evaluations) of him are way too high.

 

[BradyManny]

Miguel has a thread on here showing Matt Ryan's real money is much less than that, about a third.

If I'm Pioli, I don't take the risk of trading a top pick for Cassel, so I can pay him tons of money, while one of the rookie QBs becomes Carson Palmer.

For every Carson Palmer, there are at least 3 1st round QBs that bust. I would never spend a first on Sanchez. Cassel is a safer pick, albeit with less upside, and still the possibility of bust - although less a possibility. For a team that is on the cusp of being good, going with a guy like Cassel makes sense.

 

[JoeShmoe]

If were calling it im going to say SF 2009 no.2 and a 2010 conditional. He'd be a great fit there

We wont get a 1st for Cassel. Said it before and I'll stand by it

 

[Synovia]

Miguel has a thread on here showing Matt Ryan's real money is much less than that, about a third.

If I'm Pioli, I don't take the risk of trading a top pick for Cassel, so I can pay him tons of money, while one of the rookie QBs becomes Carson Palmer.

Matt Ryan's money is 34M guaranteed, and he has already hit several escalators. He wont make 74, but the least he'll hit is in the 60 range.


Jamarcus Russel is an absolute bust, and hes already guaranteed he gets 40+ at this point. Miguels argument in that thread is extremely stubborn and silly. He won't count Ryan's Log Bonus as part of the "guaranteed" money because Ryan won't get it if he gets killed in a plane crash.


The absolute minimum you're going to end up paying out a complete and utter bust of a high first round QB is in the 40M range.

 

[Synovia]

For every Carson Palmer, there are at least 3 1st round QBs that bust. I would never spend a first on Sanchez. Cassel is a safer pick, albeit with less upside, and still the possibility of bust - although less a possibility. For a team that is on the cusp of being good, going with a guy like Cassel makes sense.

Whats the argument that Cassel has less upside? The kid put up a 63% 21/11 3700 line his first year as a starter. Very similar to Brady's first year as a starter, except while Cassel had better receivers, Brady had a much better defense. Cassel's first year was better than Romo's with similar receivers.

The chance of Sanchez EVER having a season like that is remote.

 

[tombonneau]

It's not silly. The 2007 Patriots offense was the greatest offense in history. Matt Cassel will not be taking over for another offense that can say it is the greatest offense in history. The team scored 32 less touchdowns (thats 2 touchdowns a game) with him at QB against a much weaker schedule. I'm sorry, but you have to take the context around Cassel into the equation when evaluating him. There's no doubt he passes the eyeball test - he was accurate, mentally tough, and made great decisions.

But there are questions around him. But yes, if I'm another GM, and I'm sitting at #20 in the draft and looking at trading for Cassel or drafting Sanchez, its a no brainer, its Cassel. There is no doubt Cassel is a much safer pick than the rookie QBs. That's why we'll probably get a day 1 pick for him. But he's no sure thing either and I doubt he's going to light it up at his next destination. He'll probably put up solid numbers, but I warn you that your expectations (and evaluations) of him are way too high.

I see what you are saying, but look at it another way: I see a tale of two seasons. For one half, you have a kid who hasn't played since high school. In the other half, you have a kid with a half season of NFL action under his belt.

Looking at Weeks 9 through 16 (I think we can all agree that Week 17 in windy Buffalo was an outlier), Cassel had the following stats:

32 points per game
292 yards per game
2 TDs per game
14 tds to 4 ints
60% completions
150 rushing yards total
QB rating probably over 100 (4 100+ games, 2 80+ games, one stinker vs. Pitt of 39)

If this QB took over the Patriots in 2009, I'd expect them to score 500+ points. (Granted, he "only" averaged 2 TDs per game, so he might only throw a meager 32 TD passes.)

 

[Synovia]

I see what you are saying, but look at it another way: I see a tale of two seasons. For one half, you have a kid who hasn't played since high school. In the other half, you have a kid with a half season of NFL action under his belt.

Its even more drastic than that though: Brady and Cassel have different talents. Even if you replaced Brady with P. Manning, or In-his-prime Joe Montana, I'd expect a decline in the offense simply because there'd be retooling that needed to be done, and you'd have changes in scheme, and that takes a couple games.


In addition to this, up until week 2 of the season, Cassel was only getting 15% or so of the snaps in practice. Synching up a new QB takes time.


Yes, Cassel was a downgrade from Brady, but the system was built for Brady.

 

[VJCPatriot]

We wont get a 1st for Cassel. Said it before and I'll stand by it

Did you make the same argument for Drew Bledsoe? We all know how that turned out...

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I see what you are saying, but look at it another way: I see a tale of two seasons. For one half, you have a kid who hasn't played since high school. In the other half, you have a kid with a half season of NFL action under his belt.

Looking at Weeks 10 through 16 (I think we can all agree that Week 17 in windy Buffalo was an outlier), Cassel had the following stats:

32 points per game
292 yards per game
2 TDs per game
14 tds to 4 ints
60% completions
150 rushing yards total
QB rating of about 95 (4 100+ games, 2 80+ games, one stinker vs. Pitt of 39)

Just fixing the #s, but your points are spot-on. And let's not forget that he played at least three of those games (PIT, OAK, ARI, + the excluded BUF) in rather unfriendly conditions.

 

[Synovia]

I see what you are saying, but look at it another way: I see a tale of two seasons. For one half, you have a kid who hasn't played since high school. In the other half, you have a kid with a half season of NFL action under his belt.

Its even more drastic than that though: Brady and Cassel have different talents. Even if you replaced Brady with P. Manning, or In-his-prime Joe Montana, I'd expect a decline in the offense simply because there'd be retooling that needed to be done, and you'd have changes in scheme, and that takes a couple games.


In addition to this, up until week 2 of the season, Cassel was only getting 15% or so of the snaps in practice. Synching up a new QB takes time.


Yes, Cassel was a downgrade from Brady, but the system was built for Brady.


In Comparison, Brady's last 7 games of 2007 (after the bye), vs Cassel's last 7 games (not counting the windstorm in Buf)


Brady:17 TD, 4 INT, 179/279 (64%), 2120 yds (302p/g)

Cassel:14 TD, 4 INT, 165/275 (60%), 2049 yds (292)



Those are pretty damn similar.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Breaking News!!

ESPN - The Kansas City Chiefs are expected to announce they will be retaining Head Coach Herman Edwards for the 2009 season. Edwards is taking a lateral move to coach the Chiefs demoralized cheerleading unit.

"I was impressed with Coach Edwards' rebuilding plan for the cheerleading squad," said Kansas City's new General Manager Scott Pioli. "The unit is in serious need of an upgrade and Coach Edwards communicated a realistic vision for regaining Kansas City's leadership in corn-fed goodness along the sidelines."

Media observers had commented on Coach Edwards noticeable absence in the stands at this year's Senior Bowl. The usually flamboyent Edwards is always noticable amidst the reversed hoodies in the Senior Bowl stands, but ESPN's Chris Mortenson is now reporting Coach Edwards is in Norman, Oklahoma this week visiting one of the NCAA's more competitive cheerleading programs.

In other Kansas City news, long time sportswriter Jason Whitlock is reported to be recovering quietly at Kansas City General Hospital while awaiting transfer to the Betty Ford Center following his sudden collapse while awaiting the Kansas City press conference.

 

[Clonamery]

Breaking News!!

ESPN - The Kansas City Chiefs are expected to announce they will be retaining Head Coach Herman Edwards for the 2009 season. Edwards is taking a lateral move to coach the Chiefs demoralized cheerleading unit.

"I was impressed with Coach Edwards' rebuilding plan for the cheerleading squad," said Kansas City's new General Manager Scott Pioli. "The unit is in serious need of an upgrade and Coach Edwards communicated a realistic vision for regaining Kansas City's leadership in corn-fed goodness along the sidelines."

Media observers had commented on Coach Edwards noticeable absence in the stands at this year's Senior Bowl. The usually flamboyent Edwards is always noticable amidst the reversed hoodies in the Senior Bowl stands, but ESPN's Chris Mortenson is now reporting Coach Edwards is in Norman, Oklahoma this week visiting one of the NCAA's more competitive cheerleading programs.

In other Kansas City news, long time sportswriter Jason Whitlock is reported to be recovering quietly at Kansas City General Hospital while awaiting transfer to the Betty Ford Center following his sudden collapse while awaiting the Kansas City press conference.

Dastardly sinister, Snidely Whiplash!