Is Cassel's future determined already?

[tuckeverlasting]

I'm really curious to see if Cassell can play when he doesn't have 4 seconds in the pocket and two of the best recievers in the NFL. I really think he's an unknown at this point. I will give him props for the job he did this year. Considering the circumstances he played very well.

But Cassell beat the Chiefs, Jets, Fins, Bills, Bills, Rams, Seahawks, Cardinals (they didn't even show up), 49ers, Broncos, and Broncos.

He lost to the Chargers, Jets, Fins, Colts and Steelers.

The three good teams the Pats actually played this year the Chargers, Colts and Steelers they lost.

Cassel might turn out to be a good qb but based on this year he's drastically overrated. I'm sure as Pats fans that what you want so you can get as much for him as possible.

i know this isn't saying much, but he proved to be a better qb option than anything the jets had on their roster last year. they would love to get cassel, which will never happen.

 

[Mangold74]

How the hell can anyone claim he's overrated when nobody has any idea of how coaches have him rated?

Well all the media talking heads are saying that he's worth multilpe draft picks and most patsfans think he's a great qb.

 

[Mangold74]

i know this isn't saying much, but he proved to be a better qb option than anything the jets had on their roster last year. they would love to get cassel, which will never happen.

I wasn't comparing him to the Jets options at qb. The Jets know he isn't an option and I don't think they really want him.

 

[JSn]

Presumably every team thinks they have good receivers. If Pioli doesn't he's going to fix it. I saw Cassel scramble and make plays, and I saw hit receivers who weren't Moss or Welker. And I saw Moss make a few potentially game-changing drops.

If Pioli feels his O-Line isn't up to snuff, he'll fix it.

It's a silly argument to say "how would he do without good receivers or a solid O-Line"? No team is going to look for a QB that make a completely sucky offense look good. Brady might be the ONLY QB who can. Even Peyton has always had weapons.

Every team expects to be competing at the same level as the Pats. Saying "we're not them so he won't be good" is not the attitude of a good coach/gm.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well all the media talking heads are saying that he's worth multilpe draft picks and most patsfans think he's a great qb.

Great. Jaworski loves him. So, your argument then becomes that you know better than Jaws? Well, most opposing fan bases are claiming that he's just a product of the system, and that's been a question that media people have put forth, too.

As I said, nobody knows how the guy is rated (other than those in charge of doing the rating, one should be able to safely assume), so calling him underrated, overrated or "just right" is just a waste of time.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

I wasn't comparing him to the Jets options at qb. The Jets know he isn't an option and I don't think they really want him.

why not? that's a team that needs a qb.

 

[DW Toys]

Your thinking of Thigpen...

If I am Pioli I would probably draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd and go with Thigpen for a year or two because the kid has a big arm and give him time and he may develope into a nice QB and they don't have to give up picks for him.


Even if Pioli decided he wants Cassel that would not mean Cassels future is determined because that would still leave Pioli having to pay the pyper and if he isn't willing to part with his one he may not be the high bidder and his one may just be a little to high to use in the deal.

Might I disagree with Thigpen. It has been stated that he is NOT the future QB in the plans of K.C. Remember, they have Croyle who was a high pick. Croyle has been a flop. Thigpen was thrust into service because of injuries but his QB rating is poor. It never moved during the season even as he got more experience. The Cassel progression was extraordinary. I was not a believer either.

Here is my take. The comfort zone that Pioli has with Cassel is an important issue. He is young, has a big arm, is mobile and destined to be a starter for some team. As we all know, Bill and Scott agreed on all personnel decisions and they stuck to their guns with Cassel when the world doubted inluding me. That means that Pioli had as much faith as Bill did. Hell, he drafted Cassel. Pioli knows his strengths and weaknesses. I think a trade is possible. It's a security blanket for Pioli to build from.

You cannot compare Thigpen to Cassel. They virtually started with a clean sheet of paper and Cassel was a clear winner. Yes there is Welker and Moss. But on K.C.'s side they has 96 catches from Gonzales and Bowe developed nicely and is ten years younger than Randy. They also had a premier running back who missed some games but even starting only 12 games still had almost 900 yards and a 4.5 yard per carry average. Cassel had a good running game but by committee.

Here is my thoughts, or at least an idea that benefits both teams and Pioli, who needs O-Line help and defense, can still keep a first rounder. He is also $30m under CAP so he can dive into the FA pool. How about Pioli gets a few more of his draft choices of the Pats to add to Cassel? They are younger and under Shanny they should flourish. I send Cassel, Maroney (with Shanny's blocking schemes as a plus for his style! He is also from that area) and Dave Thomas to K.C. for a swap of first rounders (our #23 for their #3), and the K.C. second round #34 pick, plus L.J. and Gonzales. They wanted a third for Gonzales last fall and L.J. wants out and he is only 29.

That being said, I am not clear about the CAP requirements for L.J. It might have to be juggled, but Gonzales has a three year contract that is supposedly CAP friendly. I would take a flyer on L.J. next year especially if Jordan does not resign. You would have L.J. Morris and the law firm with KF. Niot bad! Worse case scenario, we swap L.J. for picks. You know BB trades out of #3 for added picks as well.

Our offense with Gonzales alone is upgraded even more than it ever was and a good welcome home present as I have said for TB. I think TG has a couple more good years left and a SB ring is a good target. Can any team in the NFL double Welker, Moss and Gonzales and let L.J. free to roam?

This is not a pie in the sky trade. It makes sense.

I say a good trade for all sides. We don't get two ones for Cassel it's true, but I would do this deal in a minute. Pioli knows Cassel. Maroney and Thomas and they can be his core on offense to build on. He drafted them. Plus these guys know each other too. Plus Pioli keeps that desirable first round choice and there are a lot of quality numbers in OL draft this year. He saves a little bit of money by moving down. This has been always a BB/Pioli creed.

DW Toys

 

[Mangold74]

why not? that's a team that needs a qb.

But he's not an option for the Jets. If you franchise him, he has zero chance of going to the Jets. And the Jets are being held hostage by lord Favre at the moment. I'm hoping we've seen the last of Favre or Pennington as the Jets qb. Favre in the last four decembers has killed his team and Pennington has a glass cieling.

 

[patchick]

And second - to some extent, Pioli might not value Cassel to the same level as other GMs. I'm sure Pioli has the inside knowledge just to how much Cassel owes some of his success to Moss/Welker/Brady/McD/BB/the offense and all the other factors involved, whereas other GMs would not know, and may be more apt to ignore those issues and ship us more picks to obtain Cassel's services.

Here's a problem with that argument...you can use the same line of reasoning to argue exactly the opposite and it makes just as much sense. Check it out:

And second - to some extent, Pioli might value Cassel at a higher level than other GMs. I'm sure Pioli has the inside knowledge on how much Cassel contributed to his own success rather than just being a product of Moss/Welker/Brady/McD/BB/the offense and all the other factors involved, whereas other GMs would not know, and may be less apt to ignore those issues and ship us more picks to obtain Cassel's services.

In other words, IF Cassel is "just a system QB," Pioli should know it. And IF Cassel is a genuine rising talent, Pioli should know it. So this really isn't about Pioli so much as it is about Cassel.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here's a problem with that argument...you can use the same line of reasoning to argue exactly the opposite and it makes just as much sense. Check it out:

And second - to some extent, Pioli might value Cassel at a higher level than other GMs. I'm sure Pioli has the inside knowledge on how much Cassel contributed to his own success rather than just being a product of Moss/Welker/Brady/McD/BB/the offense and all the other factors involved, whereas other GMs would not know, and may be less apt to ignore those issues and ship us more picks to obtain Cassel's services.

In other words, IF Cassel is "just a system QB," Pioli should know it. And IF Cassel is a genuine rising talent, Pioli should know it. So this really isn't about Pioli so much as it is about Cassel.

Bingo! And it's all about the "if". That's why the "underrated/overrated" thing makes no sense right now.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

But he's not an option for the Jets. If you franchise him, he has zero chance of going to the Jets. And the Jets are being held hostage by lord Favre at the moment. I'm hoping we've seen the last of Favre or Pennington as the Jets qb. Favre in the last four decembers has killed his team and Pennington has a glass cieling.

Be honest--deep down, you knew that this was coming, didn't you?

 

[Mangold74]

Be honest--deep down, you knew that this was coming, didn't you?[/QUOTE

Yeah we knew it was coming. After years of Chad Pennington getting Favre sounds exciting. With the good Favre also comes the bad favre. I believe he has already decided to retire and will get an answer after the superbowl. But of course I'm sure he will make some big story out of it. At least we are rid of Pennington and his glass ceiling.

 

[signbabybrady]

You cannot compare Thigpen to Cassel. They virtually started with a clean sheet of paper and Cassel was a clear winner. Yes there is Welker and Moss. But on K.C.'s side they has 96 catches from Gonzales and Bowe developed nicely and is ten years younger than Randy. They also had a premier running back who missed some games but even starting only 12 games still had almost 900 yards and a 4.5 yard per carry average. Cassel had a good running game but by committee.

You are probably right that it is not fair to compare Cassel to Thigpen and I agree Cassel is the clear winner but what you need to compare is Cassel minus multiple picks to Thigpen and those picks. IMO the Chiefs need more than just a QB and would be better served using their first and even second on some Talent other than QB and go with Thigpen for a year or two giving him a chance and giving the orginization time to find a better one while also improving the whole roster.

I send Cassel, Maroney (with Shanny's blocking schemes as a plus for his style! He is also from that area) and Dave Thomas to K.C. for a swap of first rounders (our #23 for their #3), and the K.C. second round #34 pick, plus L.J. and Gonzales. They wanted a third for Gonzales last fall and L.J. wants out and he is only 29.

If we are so quick to get rid of Maroney and Thomas why would Pioli not admit his mistake as well and not want these guys?

Also why would Pioli make his first move be to get rid of Gonzo the Face of the Chiefs the last ten years. I know Gonzo wanted out last year and many thought/think it will happen this year but I don't Pioli would want to get rid of him and would do everything he can to keep him happy and in KC. So that leaves LJ and the picks in this discussion and I don't think that matches up as a fair deal.

 

[tombonneau]

I'm really curious to see if Cassell can play when he doesn't have 4 seconds in the pocket and two of the best recievers in the NFL. I really think he's an unknown at this point. I will give him props for the job he did this year. Considering the circumstances he played very well.

I've said this before, but how did Brad Johnson & Brooks Bollinger look with that great Dallas OL and All Pro WR, TE & RB?

Getting behind the wheel of a race car doesn't make you a race car driver.

 

[The_Riddler]

Pioli has the following decision to make:

A. Rome wasn't built in a day and KC is going to be a long term project, with that said, I take Mark Sanchez and his upside at #3 and use that 2cond round pick on the BPA

B. Sink serious money into the quicker fix in Cassel yet not having enough building blocks around him, aka, making the urgency now instead of later.

To be honest, I don't see Pioli going after Cassel, I think Scott views Cassel as more of a product of the system with (Moss/Welker) vs a guy that can carry an offense only having the likes of Dwayne Bowe and an unestablished offensive system like in NE. Scott isn't this foolish. He'll draft Sanchez and build his defense, I guarantee it.

Our best bet is that those 2 top QB's go in the top 5 and go quick, making the likes of SF, Minny, TB scrambling for an answer, aka Matty.......

 

[Lampshade]

I've said this before, but how did Brad Johnson & Brooks Bollinger look with that great Dallas OL and All Pro WR, TE & RB?

Getting behind the wheel of a race car doesn't make you a race car driver.

To go with that, I don't recall Cassel getting 4 seconds in the pocket all that often, either.

 

[TruthSeeker]

To go with that, I don't recall Cassel getting 4 seconds in the pocket all that often, either.

Yes, the claim that we have a great OL was a bit of a stretch considering the Patriots gave up 47 or 48 sacks this year.

 

[JSn]

To be honest, I don't see Pioli going after Cassel, I think Scott views Cassel as more of a product of the system with (Moss/Welker) vs a guy that can carry an offense only having the likes of Dwayne Bowe and an unestablished offensive system like in NE. Scott isn't this foolish.

Ok, if I was unkind I'd say unkind things about this statement.

The reality is, how do you call a guy who constantly won the back-up to Brady job despite fans calling for his head, who then had to assert himself in that role and did it very effectively and acclimated quickly a system QB?

I think a product of the system QB is a guy with growing, long-term success. I doubt he jumps out of the gate running (and doing well as quickly as he did is more about him as a QB than him as a system guy).

If it's just the system, why did they cut Gutz instead of Cassel? I don't buy it and I don't think BB and Pioli saw it that way when they kept him as the #2 guy every year after camps, meetings and drafts.

It's true, a poorly run team could ruin a solid QB, but I don't think a good team makes a crappy QB good.

Take Favre for example. He was Green Bay Favre in New York too. Lucky, sometimes impressive, always chaotic. Cassel is a level guy and I think he'll lobby for a team that suits his skill-set and mind-set. The parties will all work together.

Mark this: if Cassel ends up working for Pioli, he will still be a very good QB in this league.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Well, the Chiefs board has news/rumors backing up the Shanahan half of your equation:

Chiefs Jack Harry says it's Shanarat - ChiefsPlanet

Chiefs Shanahan's son: Mike will sign with the Chiefs - ChiefsPlanet

Time will tell on that, and it would definitely make things interesting in that division.

Well Shannahan loved Maroney the year he was drafted?
Maroney & Cassell for their 2nd round pick in 2009 & 2010 & Larry Johnson (If Johnson will take a pay cut).

 

[The_Riddler]

The reality is, how do you call a guy who constantly won the back-up to Brady job despite fans calling for his head, who then had to assert himself in that role and did it very effectively and acclimated quickly a system QB?

Look, I like Cassel, I think he's an excellent QB, but I also know that if he didn't have Moss and ESPECIALLY Wes Welker in this offense, not to mention the tudorship of a great OC in McDaniels (Never underestimate that), then he clearly would not have had the kind of success he had this season. If you put Cassel in that KC offense, without a McDaniels and a Moss and a Welker, you will get different results my friend, I don't see how you could say you wouldn't.

This is not to bash Cassel at all. It's just that I think Pioli would rather pay much less money to a Mark Sanchez who he could develop in a 2-3 years as the rest of the team develops and leave enough FA cash to help build the team while Sanchez grows. KC is 3 years away at this point. Cassel is a guy who can help a team "right now", those teams being Minn, SF and Tampa. Pioli doesn't need this fixed right now like 4-eyes over in Minnesota does or else he's out. After the top 2 QB's go quickly in this draft, which they will, if Childress doesn't pick up the phone for Cassel either then or before then, because he's banking on TJackson, then he can kiss his tail good-bye.