Is anyone else concerned about our lack of pass rush?

[BradyManny]

I felt our lack of pass rush has KILLED us the past couple of years. Not only that, but strong pass rushing against us has hurt us. You'd think Belichick would be stacking us with pass rushers...

In a game where disrupting the quarterback has become one of the keys to victory, we seem to have gotten WEAKER, not stronger there. We've lost Vrabel and gained no one better.

So what's the plan? Let opposing quarterbacks stand back there for 5 minutes and complete yet another 3rd-and-15?

Shore up the coverage in the middle first. It was baby steps for Guyton and Mayo last season and sometimes AD had to be the babysitter in terms of picking up the slack in coverage. If Guyton & Mayo can prove more effective in coverage, they can be more aggressive in their pass rushing, especially w AD.

Plus, it would help if Guyton and Mayo hone some pass rushing skills. Whether we are in a 3-3 nickel or 2-4 nickel, having all the linebackers on the field w the ability to cover and pass rush will make a huge difference.

 

[rbkgoalr]

Picking up Jason Taylor would be a great asset to our pass rush. Perhaps Derrick Brooks also???

 

[cstjohn17]

No becasue we are signing Jason Taylor, Suggs and Peppers...

BradyManny had a good point about coverage in the middle of the field. This has been a sore spot for a while. The Safeties were forced to help the LBs and babysit the corners.

TEs have ripped the defense, this is generally a LBs responsibility. At least initially, better coverage = more sacks.

In 2003 you heard the term, coverage sack an awful lot. The past couple years all you heard was 'he was wide open'.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Yes I am thats why I say trade Seymour for Peppers

So you'd give up 8.5 sacks a year,l ots of interior pass rush presures, forcing the pocket to close, so the OLBs can get the QB without him stepping up. Seymour is also the key to the run defense.

You give up all that for a guy who you are not sure could make a conversion to DE/OLB?

BB didn't just fall off a turnip truck.

 

[DaBruinz]

I felt our lack of pass rush has KILLED us the past couple of years. Not only that, but strong pass rushing against us has hurt us. You'd think Belichick would be stacking us with pass rushers...

In a game where disrupting the quarterback has become one of the keys to victory, we seem to have gotten WEAKER, not stronger there. We've lost Vrabel and gained no one better.

So what's the plan? Let opposing quarterbacks stand back there for 5 minutes and complete yet another 3rd-and-15?

How do you know the Pats haven't gained anyone better than Vrabel? Can you see the future and know how Woods and Mayo and Crable are going to perform?

People who think that only ONE player is going to improve the Pats pass rush are showing they don't understand how the Pats bring their pressure and what the Pats did when they were most successful.

In 2003 and 2004, the Pats pass rush was so good because they could rush the passer from any of the 4 LB positions. It wasn't just having McGinest and Vrabel. You had to account for Bruschi and Johnson as well. If you didn't, they were the ones getting the sack or applying the pressure.

Last year, the Pats did not rush Bruschi hardly at all because he just can't get through the trash anymore. The Pats also didn't rush Mayo hardly at all, instead preferring him to sit back in the zone and become familiar with how to play the Pats ILB position. Vrabel played all last year with a shoulder injury. And they lost Thomas and then Woods to injuries.
When you are only rushing the same 2 players every down, it becomes easier to block you and your pass rush isn't as effective. This leads to your pass coverage being less effective. Which we saw.

The Pats need to improve at the ILB position next to Mayo. I'm not sure if that is Guyton or not. Probably not. However, improving that position so they can get a pass rush from either Mayo or the other ILB will go a long way to improving the pass rush over-all. The Pats do need someone to step up opposite Thomas. Whether its Woods, TBC, Redd, Craig, a draft pick or a free agent.

Its not just the OLB position that the Pats need improvement at for the pass rush. Its both the OLB and ILB positions.

 

[DarrylS]

Now that we have some corners who can cover the QB will have to hang on to the ball longer and that improves our pass rush. Also, it enables us to blitz more often as the coaches gain confidence in the coverage, freeing up guys like Mayo and Guyton who have good speed. Getting AD back will help. Finally, I fully expect help in the draft. Even though an OLB will not start, being a designated rusher on pass downs is something we have done for a while. No worries.

Have pretty much said this from the onset.. as much as there is a love affair with Vrabel he has lost a step and expect us to get younger in this area.. people want something different from Seymour.. see shiny bead mentality.. in reality he gets the job done...

Thought our D backfield was more of the issue than our D line... this coupled with some untimely LB injuries have effected us adversely..

 

[WhiZa]

Picking up Jason Taylor would be a great asset to our pass rush. Perhaps Derrick Brooks also???

I see Taylor as an upgraded TBC. A good 3rd down guy that wouldn't offer much as a starter.

Derrick Brooks is too small imo., but would be a classic BB pickup

 

[JoeShmoe]

I think you are looking at this in the wrong way. we could not cover anyone in the middle of the field and hence go lighter keep dropping an extra person.

Thank gawd someone else sees this. People seem to expect that you have 4 LB's in a 3-4 system who always rush the passer. That just isnt true. We hardly called any blitzes or rushes last year primarily I believe because we had a poor secondary and rookies in Mayo and Guyton playing coverage and we called defensive plays to play coverage. There were hardly any corner or safety blitzes (although towards the end we called a few and Merriweather did very well). Vrabel had a down year and AD isnt a natural OLB anyway. If anything our DL didnt get enough pressure up front

This year we have a much improved secondary .. and can therefore leave fewer players in coverage. I hope we see Mayo start to rush more often and see more production off the edge from AD and Woods (supposedly a good rusher and will likely start at OLB unless we get Peppers or Taylor). Ditto a fully fit DL with Green and Wright in rotation should be getting more penetration

Thankfully BB is smarter than the lot of us and im not sure he sees OLB as key as some people here do .. guess we find out at draft time

 

[P4E*]

If we had a dwight freeney type player we would be ok. Sey seems way too slow and so does Warren. Losing Vrable wasn't a loss at all. AD can do a job and hopefully Crabble can come good next year. Signing JT would be a ideal.

 

[DaBruinz]

I see Taylor as an upgraded TBC. A good 3rd down guy that wouldn't offer much as a starter.

Derrick Brooks is too small imo., but would be a classic BB pickup

Taylor is more than just an upgraded TBC. A healthy Taylor can play all 3 downs...

 

[DaBruinz]

If we had a dwight freeney type player we would be ok. Sey seems way too slow and so does Warren. Losing Vrable wasn't a loss at all. AD can do a job and hopefully Crabble can come good next year. Signing JT would be a ideal.

WRONG. If the Pats had a Dwight Freeeney type player, they'd suck because Freeney is horrible against the run.

Seymour had 8.5 sacks last year. He's also a 300 lb defensive lineman who's primary job is to tie up Offensive Linemen. Say with Warren.

Your statements lead me to believe that you don't know much, if anything, about the Patriots 3-4 2 Gap base defense.

 

[AzPatsFan]

You sound like iapatsfan.

Our defense for the last couple of years was rated 4th and 10th in the league. We went 27-5 over the past couple of years. How is that "KILLED us?"

You guys who became fans in 2007 need to understand that teams, even the Patriots, do not go undefeated year after year. This is like 2005, when all the bandwagoners who became fans in the three-out-our-four years thought we sucked and tried to pinpoint the "problem" because we were so "bad" as to not make the superbowl. Unrealistic expectations from bandwagon fans.

Every team can use improvement, including the Pats. But to say our defense sucks is to show a lack of balance and comprehension about the basic game of football.

I have been saying that for a long time now. The glass is 3/4 or more full. The sack production numbers fell way off from the 40s to the low 20s, due to injuries, to AD, Jarvis, Ty W, and maybe Mike V. Much more was due to raw youngsters playing the short middle. And perhaps a little over-the-hillitis from Mike Vrabel. There is already pass rushing talent on this team and more will be added in the draft. Do you really think it will be as bad as it was in 2008 when we were ONLY 11-5.

Add some perspective guys. 11-5 was the best Record the Patriots ever had, before Belichick came to town. It was also good enough to get to three of the Pat's six SB visits.

 

[DaBruinz]

Thank gawd someone else sees this. People seem to expect that you have 4 LB's in a 3-4 system who always rush the passer. That just isnt true. We hardly called any blitzes or rushes last year primarily I believe because we had a poor secondary and rookies in Mayo and Guyton playing coverage and we called defensive plays to play coverage. There were hardly any corner or safety blitzes (although towards the end we called a few and Merriweather did very well). Vrabel had a down year and AD isnt a natural OLB anyway[. If anything our DL didnt get enough pressure up front

Sorry, gotta disagree here. In the Pats 3-4 2-gap, you have 3-4 LBers who have the ability to rush the passer. It doesn't mean that they do it all the time. The secondary, while an issue, wasn't as big as you'd like people to believe.

Also, Adalius Thomas IS a natural 3-4 OLB / 4-3 DE. I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.

Also, how do you figure that the DL didn't get enough pressure on the QB when it was the D-line who accounted for most of the sacks that the Pats got and most of the pressure that was put on opposing QBs. If anything, last year showed the fundamental breakdown of the pass rush by not having enough ILBs who could effectively rush the passer.

This year we have a much improved secondary .. and can therefore leave fewer players in coverage. I hope we see Mayo start to rush more often and see more production off the edge from AD and Woods (supposedly a good rusher and will likely start at OLB unless we get Peppers or Taylor). Ditto a fully fit DL with Green and Wright in rotation should be getting more penetration

Thankfully BB is smarter than the lot of us and im not sure he sees OLB as key as some people here do .. guess we find out at draft time

The secondary isn't much improved, yet. It should be with the additions of Springs and Bodden and the return of a healthy Wheatley. But only time will tell.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Sorry, gotta disagree here. In the Pats 3-4 2-gap, you have 3-4 LBers who have the ability to rush the passer. It doesn't mean that they do it all the time. The secondary, while an issue, wasn't as big as you'd like people to believe.

I guess what im saying is that we just didnt have the personnel to play that way last year, primarily IMHO because of the poor secondary and lack of experience from ILB. We werent rushing the ILB's at all. Im struggling to recalls games where they sent Mayo through the gaps?

Also, how do you figure that the DL didn't get enough pressure on the QB when it was the D-line who accounted for most of the sacks that the Pats got and most of the pressure that was put on opposing QBs. If anything, last year showed the fundamental breakdown of the pass rush by not having enough ILBs who could effectively rush the passer.

Fair point

The secondary isn't much improved, yet. It should be with the additions of Springs and Bodden and the return of a healthy Wheatley. But only time will tell.

I think it looks in way better shape even at this stage.. we do need to see if Bodden and Springs do well in camp and can start straight away ... and also if can get Harrison back in some hybrid LB/SS capacity. Im also hopeful that Wheatley really comes on this year and replaces Hobbs by mid season

 

[Ring 6]

With our version of the 3-4 and our DL, we should be able to tie up at least four OL's (you say five) with the DL with NO PASS RUSH FROM THE LINE. Obviously, if the offense doesn't double team Wilfork and Seymour they will have their share of sacks.

IMHO, sacks should come from the edges: OLB's, corner blitzes and safety blitzes. ILB's need to plug the line, the DL won't do everything. The ILB's also need to cover anyone coming across the center. The ILB's (as the DL) will have occasional sacks when blocks aren't held.

The open question is why we haven't seen sacks and pressure from our OLB's. Some of the reason is that the OLB's can't trust their secondary to do their job. Our secondary needs to be able to cover better and then be more available for run and pass blitzes.

SOLUTIONS
1) Improve the secondary, so linebackers don't have to be defensive backs. This has been accomplished. Bodden and Springs will replace O'Neal and Lew Sanders.
2) Maintain our DL. With the Wright re-signing, we will have the same line as last year, with some improvement as Wright and LeKevin get more experience.
3) Transition to the OLB's of the future to replace Vrabel and Thomas with reasonable depth. I expect that Thomas will be here as long as he is a top performer. His salaries are $4.9M for 2010 and $5.9M for 2011. The salaries are set up so that decisions will need to be made. We've drafted Crable. I would add two OLB's this year, one who is ready to contribure some this year.
4) Plug the hole for 2009. We have tendered Woods and will bring him back, presumably to start. We also have brough back Banta-Cain for passing downs. The combination may be our OLB opposit Thomas for at the first part of the year (presuming that we don't sign Taylor).

BOTTOM LINE
OLB is the ONE issue that MUST be addressed in this draft. Given that, the issue WILL be solved. The question is whether we add one or two players. This depends partly on Belichick's evaluation and future plans for Crable, Banta-Cain, Woods and Redd.

We need to look a lot deeper than that. (ILBS are resposnible for the qB and crossing routes on the same play, among other things)

The reality that no one here has ever happily accepted is that outside of 3rd down, we will never be a dominating pass rush.
In our base defense we sacrifice the pass rush to be consistent, conservative, and prevent the big play. There is no debate about this its a fact. We ask our front 7 to play 2gap defense. This means they are responsible for both gaps on either side of 'their OL'. MOst times this means they must ENGAGE the blocker and play off the block, before reading the play.
If Dwight Freeney and the rest of the Colts(among other teams) are told to come off the ball rushing the passer, and try to find the RB on the way to the QB if its a run, and our DL are told to engage the blocker, read, then react, how in the world would you expect pass rush to be a priority for us?
We willingly sacrifice the pass rush to play conservative, consistent, big-play limiting team defense.
In obvious passing downs its all equal, but our personel is entirely different. DEs in the 34 become the DTs on 3rd down, and OLBS in the 34 become the DEs.

I think that last season we struggled rushing the passer, but to categorize it as we are a team that has consistently struggled in pass rushing is wrong, unless you refuse to accept that we are a team that puts less priority on selling out to rush the QB, and expect us to rush the QB like teams that have an entirely different, super-aggressive philosophy.

 

[ALP]

as u say, rushing hte passer is important, and hence expensive...

in case u havnt kept up, the pats are alittle tight at the moment in that category, and hence avoided taking pass rushers in FA, however, they will take them at a smaller price tag through the draft, and hope that works

i dont see why it wouldnt

 

[AzPatsFan]

We need to look a lot deeper than that. (ILBS are resposnible for the qB and crossing routes on the same play, among other things)

The reality that no one here has ever happily accepted is that outside of 3rd down, we will never be a dominating pass rush.
In our base defense we sacrifice the pass rush to be consistent, conservative, and prevent the big play. There is no debate about this its a fact. We ask our front 7 to play 2gap defense. This means they are responsible for both gaps on either side of 'their OL'. MOst times this means they must ENGAGE the blocker and play off the block, before reading the play.
If Dwight Freeney and the rest of the Colts(among other teams) are told to come off the ball rushing the passer, and try to find the RB on the way to the QB if its a run, and our DL are told to engage the blocker, read, then react, how in the world would you expect pass rush to be a priority for us?
We willingly sacrifice the pass rush to play conservative, consistent, big-play limiting team defense.
In obvious passing downs its all equal, but our personel is entirely different. DEs in the 34 become the DTs on 3rd down, and OLBS in the 34 become the DEs.

I think that last season we struggled rushing the passer, but to categorize it as we are a team that has consistently struggled in pass rushing is wrong, unless you refuse to accept that we are a team that puts less priority on selling out to rush the QB, and expect us to rush the QB like teams that have an entirely different, super-aggressive philosophy.

Well said.

Despite that, Seymour who all too many here denigrate, had 8.5 sacks and 16 pressures, while all the other defensive linenmen only added 3 more, if I recall correctly.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with all your analysis. I certainly do not believe that the team has consistently struggled in our pass rush. We bend and don't break.

Last year, I believe that, due to injuries, we had weak links at ILB, OLB and at CB. I am somewhat aghast at those who think that there is no pass rush problem because we went 7-1 against the West last year (and 4-4 against the rest).

Also, I believe that we can suceed on offense with any particular unit being the weak link. However, it a bit more difficult to be a Super Bowl favorite with two or three weak links. I do believe that the corners will be much improved; all five should should be better than their equivalent last year.

But what about the linebackers. Has Guyton improved enough to make up for Bruschi's inevitable slowing down? Will Thomas-Woods-BantaCain be able to do the job? We've come a long way from the time that Manning voted for all four of our linebackers on his probowl ballot. We may be one player away. If Belichick see Orapko or another as this year's Mayo, then we'll be in great shape. If not, we may struggle again this year at linebacker. In any case, we need a replacement for Vrabel's production and a future replacement for Thomas three years in the future.

I think that last season we struggled rushing the passer, but to categorize it as we are a team that has consistently struggled in pass rushing is wrong, unless you refuse to accept that we are a team that puts less priority on selling out to rush the QB, and expect us to rush the QB like teams that have an entirely different, super-aggressive philosophy.

 

[WhiZa]

Taylor is more than just an upgraded TBC. A healthy Taylor can play all 3 downs...

He's not much of a run stuffer. As far as numbers go, when comparing him to Thomas/Vrabel, he is 20-30 lbs lighter, and has 20-30 less tackles a year. I don't see him getting much better at his age so to me that says 3rd down guy.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I think that last season we struggled rushing the passer, but to categorize it as we are a team that has consistently struggled in pass rushing is wrong, unless you refuse to accept that we are a team that puts less priority on selling out to rush the QB, and expect us to rush the QB like teams that have an entirely different, super-aggressive philosophy.

We didn't have the talent in 2008 to rush the QB. Our olbs were either too long in the tooth (Vrabel) or had to make up for the deficiency of others (Thomas). That's why the sack numbers were down. Don't blame the system. And it's not sack numbers alone that we should look at, it's overall QB pressures. Sacks are just one indicator. The pressure wasn't there in 2008. Let's look at the numbers over the years.

2008 31 sacks 14th 11-5, Missed playoffs
2007 47 sacks 2nd 16-0, Lost Superbowl
2006 44 sacks 5th 12-4, Lost AFC title game to Colts
2005 33 sacks 23rd 10-6, Lost to Denver in playoffs
2004 45 sacks 3rd Superbowl Champions
2003 41 sacks 6th Superbowl Champions
2002 34 sacks 20th Missed Playoffs
2001 41 sacks 13th Superbowl Champions

As you can see, there appears to be a direct correlation to how good the New England pass rush is, to how well they do in the playoffs. Now I'm not saying that the sacks are the only thing to look at, I think that the number of QB pressures will be higher in those successful years as well. But if you look at the numbers, improving the passrush has got to be priority #1 for the Pats in the upcoming draft. Can we say Connor Barwin?

Sack stats courtesy of NFL.com:
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