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Is anyone else concerned about our lack of pass rush?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Snarf, Mar 16, 2009.

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  1. Snarf

    Snarf Rookie

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    I felt our lack of pass rush has KILLED us the past couple of years. Not only that, but strong pass rushing against us has hurt us. You'd think Belichick would be stacking us with pass rushers...

    In a game where disrupting the quarterback has become one of the keys to victory, we seem to have gotten WEAKER, not stronger there. We've lost Vrabel and gained no one better.

    So what's the plan? Let opposing quarterbacks stand back there for 5 minutes and complete yet another 3rd-and-15?
  2. P4E*

    P4E* Banned

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    Speed kills.
  3. APatrioticVirginian

    APatrioticVirginian Banned

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    Yes I am thats why I say trade Seymour for Peppers
  4. P4E*

    P4E* Banned

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    Jason Taylor would be an ideal fit. even if it's only for 3rd down situations. Peppers for Seymour in a trade would never happen.
  5. Mosi Moose

    Mosi Moose Rookie

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    I'm also concerned, but really believe that BB will address it (combination of 2 of the following 3 things: the draft, signing of Taylor, or he knows / believes in something with Crable). However, if we don't use #23 on a pass rusher, then I'll really start to get worried.
  6. Rossmci90

    Rossmci90 Rookie

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    Im very concerned, if there is still a lack of pass rush then i imagine we'll see 3rd and longs continuing to be converted as last year.
  7. Adam Seward

    Adam Seward Rookie

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    I hope he pulls the trigger on Matthews and/or English in the draft.
  8. Mack Herron

    Mack Herron Rookie

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    Now that we have some corners who can cover the QB will have to hang on to the ball longer and that improves our pass rush. Also, it enables us to blitz more often as the coaches gain confidence in the coverage, freeing up guys like Mayo and Guyton who have good speed. Getting AD back will help. Finally, I fully expect help in the draft. Even though an OLB will not start, being a designated rusher on pass downs is something we have done for a while. No worries.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  9. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, I think it's fair to say everyone is concerned. There are still options in FA and the draft - Jason Taylor (possible), Julius Peppers (unlikely), or 1-2 rookies (Connor Barwin, Robert Ayers, Larry English, Aaron Maybin, Clay Matthews, etc.). I think it's reasonable to assume that this hasn't gone unnoticed by the FO, and that given their maniacal attention to plugging all of our other holes, they probably have a plan in mind for this area as well.
  10. satz

    satz Rookie

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    I think you are looking at this in the wrong way. we could not cover anyone in the middle of the field and hence go lighter keep dropping an extra person.

    so when we rush 3 or 4 person lets be honest their is going be 5 OL abd 1 RB?TE so effectively negating any rush.

    peppers i do not think will help if a gaurd and tackle double him everydown. all the big plays he makes is in single blocker scenario.Put him in the bad coverage situation asking him to sack against 2 OL he will be not be effective.seymour 12.5 sacks double teams all the time is anamoly i wish AD played on his side more so we could have seen seymour hit 15-16 sacks at that rate.

    I do not think any rookie is going to contribute in the OLB spot this year .again a realistic approach even though everyone assume BB cheats by putting players on IR and training them illegally i for one do not.
    do crabel will have TC to develop and learn. He might be working out in a gym but i am sure he is not training in gillette or being trained by patriots coachs to play .
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  11. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    concerned is not a word I would use when discussing pro football

    but I do believe the pats do not have a pass rush at this time
  12. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Dude, math is your friend, though.

    Seymour requires a double team. Wilfork requires a double team. Warren requires some serious OL attention. Opposing offenses don't have enough guys to the pocket clean enough against that line-up on passing downs.
  13. Nestapats

    Nestapats Rookie

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    Maybe i'm wrong about this, but i got a feeling during the year that the lack of pressure had to do with Vrabel's decline in production and of course the injury to AD. This is why i felt pretty comfortable with the Vrabes trade, cause i felt it was the right thing to do, move on.

    I don't agree with a lack of pressure the last couple of years, but just last season. 2 seasons ago we had about the most sacks in the league. I'm positive that we'll select a pass rushing OLB with either the 23rd or 34th pick. I don't see Taylor coming anymore due to cap-space we're going to need to sign our guys.
  14. PatsFaninAZ

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    I think it's an issue. We were below average in sacks last year, after being 2d and 5th in the two years prior. That's a pretty big decline. We had no points on defense last year either, and I think QB rushes are instrumental to pick 6s. Getting points out of your defense is huge.

    So, pash rush is something to think about.

    I also don't understand why we never talk about the o-line. That's where I tend to focus. It let us down in our one loss in the 18-1 season, and it was not great last year. Cassel is more mobile than Brady and he lead the league in times sacked. We all learned pretty well last year that every time a guy gets through it is a potential season ending situation.
  15. satz

    satz Rookie

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    seymour does not draw double team all the down so does vince ,but having AD means a gaurd and tackle always will have help on that side so if sey or ad are having good effect you can see 1 blocker move that side.

    Ty was injured and also for some reason our weak side had trouble as when so much attention is drawn by the Left side , vrabel and ty should have all pro years. Last season you saw that from vrabel[12.5 sacks]. You need pressure so a RB/TE is kept into block .But we kept running nickel to cover the middle forcing an OLB in coverage. so now you are rushing 4 against 5 OL... that 1 blocker can be moved to which ever player sey ,ad,vince or ty who is being effective that day.

    this year we dropped our OLB all time in coverage which frees up blockers even more and that is when you have issues as now the TE and RB are being released for pass catching .No big LB is going to cover a 50 lb less RB or TE which was horrible to watch.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    With our version of the 3-4 and our DL, we should be able to tie up at least four OL's (you say five) with the DL with NO PASS RUSH FROM THE LINE. Obviously, if the offense doesn't double team Wilfork and Seymour they will have their share of sacks.

    IMHO, sacks should come from the edges: OLB's, corner blitzes and safety blitzes. ILB's need to plug the line, the DL won't do everything. The ILB's also need to cover anyone coming across the center. The ILB's (as the DL) will have occasional sacks when blocks aren't held.

    The open question is why we haven't seen sacks and pressure from our OLB's. Some of the reason is that the OLB's can't trust their secondary to do their job. Our secondary needs to be able to cover better and then be more available for run and pass blitzes.

    SOLUTIONS
    1) Improve the secondary, so linebackers don't have to be defensive backs. This has been accomplished. Bodden and Springs will replace O'Neal and Lew Sanders.
    2) Maintain our DL. With the Wright re-signing, we will have the same line as last year, with some improvement as Wright and LeKevin get more experience.
    3) Transition to the OLB's of the future to replace Vrabel and Thomas with reasonable depth. I expect that Thomas will be here as long as he is a top performer. His salaries are $4.9M for 2010 and $5.9M for 2011. The salaries are set up so that decisions will need to be made. We've drafted Crable. I would add two OLB's this year, one who is ready to contribure some this year.
    4) Plug the hole for 2009. We have tendered Woods and will bring him back, presumably to start. We also have brough back Banta-Cain for passing downs. The combination may be our OLB opposit Thomas for at the first part of the year (presuming that we don't sign Taylor).

    BOTTOM LINE
    OLB is the ONE issue that MUST be addressed in this draft. Given that, the issue WILL be solved. The question is whether we add one or two players. This depends partly on Belichick's evaluation and future plans for Crable, Banta-Cain, Woods and Redd.

  17. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    I can understand concern over our pass rush as last year it was not great and we have lost one of our best rushers...

    But we are getting back one of our best rushers in AD and at this point he is better than Vrabel.Warren's groin significantly limited his ability to rush. Green was hurt too. Not to mention Woods got hurt, we never saw Crable, and we had guys off the street by the end. Thats what we get back from our team that was missing last year as far as pass rush....

    Also we bring back Tully who was a pass rush specialist with us before and add a couple of guys to the secondary who should cover longer.

    We aren't done yet either there still could be a Jason Taylor or something or we could add a OLB thru the draft.

    Eitherway I think our pass rush will be better than last year and since our secondary should be better and since Tom should be back it is another area where an 11-5 team improves...
  18. KY Pats Fan

    KY Pats Fan Rookie

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    I certainly am. The lack of pass rush has exposed the weaknesses in the secondary. The 3-4 scheme is designed so that the pass rush is normally generated by a blitzing LB and the Pats just haven't had anyone on the outside with explosive speed. I'm hoping Crable and Guyton can fill that roll. (Even though Guyton is an ILB).
  19. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    You sound like iapatsfan.

    Our defense for the last couple of years was rated 4th and 10th in the league. We went 27-5 over the past couple of years. How is that "KILLED us?"

    You guys who became fans in 2007 need to understand that teams, even the Patriots, do not go undefeated year after year. This is like 2005, when all the bandwagoners who became fans in the three-out-our-four years thought we sucked and tried to pinpoint the "problem" because we were so "bad" as to not make the superbowl. Unrealistic expectations from bandwagon fans.

    Every team can use improvement, including the Pats. But to say our defense sucks is to show a lack of balance and comprehension about the basic game of football.
  20. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    Thanks crime!!!!

    I guess the only way our defense could be good is if they pitch 16 shutouts and have every defensive play end in yardage lost.

    With a full offseason and the young kids we have, why would somebody be worried?

    It's hard to blame Tyree's miracle catch on a lack of pass rush.
  21. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Shore up the coverage in the middle first. It was baby steps for Guyton and Mayo last season and sometimes AD had to be the babysitter in terms of picking up the slack in coverage. If Guyton & Mayo can prove more effective in coverage, they can be more aggressive in their pass rushing, especially w AD.

    Plus, it would help if Guyton and Mayo hone some pass rushing skills. Whether we are in a 3-3 nickel or 2-4 nickel, having all the linebackers on the field w the ability to cover and pass rush will make a huge difference.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  22. rbkgoalr

    rbkgoalr Rookie

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    Picking up Jason Taylor would be a great asset to our pass rush. Perhaps Derrick Brooks also???
  23. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No becasue we are signing Jason Taylor, Suggs and Peppers...

    BradyManny had a good point about coverage in the middle of the field. This has been a sore spot for a while. The Safeties were forced to help the LBs and babysit the corners.

    TEs have ripped the defense, this is generally a LBs responsibility. At least initially, better coverage = more sacks.

    In 2003 you heard the term, coverage sack an awful lot. The past couple years all you heard was 'he was wide open'.
  24. AzPatsFan

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    So you'd give up 8.5 sacks a year,l ots of interior pass rush presures, forcing the pocket to close, so the OLBs can get the QB without him stepping up. Seymour is also the key to the run defense.

    You give up all that for a guy who you are not sure could make a conversion to DE/OLB?

    BB didn't just fall off a turnip truck.;)
  25. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How do you know the Pats haven't gained anyone better than Vrabel? Can you see the future and know how Woods and Mayo and Crable are going to perform?

    People who think that only ONE player is going to improve the Pats pass rush are showing they don't understand how the Pats bring their pressure and what the Pats did when they were most successful.

    In 2003 and 2004, the Pats pass rush was so good because they could rush the passer from any of the 4 LB positions. It wasn't just having McGinest and Vrabel. You had to account for Bruschi and Johnson as well. If you didn't, they were the ones getting the sack or applying the pressure.

    Last year, the Pats did not rush Bruschi hardly at all because he just can't get through the trash anymore. The Pats also didn't rush Mayo hardly at all, instead preferring him to sit back in the zone and become familiar with how to play the Pats ILB position. Vrabel played all last year with a shoulder injury. And they lost Thomas and then Woods to injuries.
    When you are only rushing the same 2 players every down, it becomes easier to block you and your pass rush isn't as effective. This leads to your pass coverage being less effective. Which we saw.

    The Pats need to improve at the ILB position next to Mayo. I'm not sure if that is Guyton or not. Probably not. However, improving that position so they can get a pass rush from either Mayo or the other ILB will go a long way to improving the pass rush over-all. The Pats do need someone to step up opposite Thomas. Whether its Woods, TBC, Redd, Craig, a draft pick or a free agent.

    Its not just the OLB position that the Pats need improvement at for the pass rush. Its both the OLB and ILB positions.
  26. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Have pretty much said this from the onset.. as much as there is a love affair with Vrabel he has lost a step and expect us to get younger in this area.. people want something different from Seymour.. see shiny bead mentality.. in reality he gets the job done...

    Thought our D backfield was more of the issue than our D line... this coupled with some untimely LB injuries have effected us adversely..
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  27. WhiZa

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    I see Taylor as an upgraded TBC. A good 3rd down guy that wouldn't offer much as a starter.

    Derrick Brooks is too small imo., but would be a classic BB pickup
  28. JoeShmoe

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    Thank gawd someone else sees this. People seem to expect that you have 4 LB's in a 3-4 system who always rush the passer. That just isnt true. We hardly called any blitzes or rushes last year primarily I believe because we had a poor secondary and rookies in Mayo and Guyton playing coverage and we called defensive plays to play coverage. There were hardly any corner or safety blitzes (although towards the end we called a few and Merriweather did very well). Vrabel had a down year and AD isnt a natural OLB anyway. If anything our DL didnt get enough pressure up front

    This year we have a much improved secondary .. and can therefore leave fewer players in coverage. I hope we see Mayo start to rush more often and see more production off the edge from AD and Woods (supposedly a good rusher and will likely start at OLB unless we get Peppers or Taylor). Ditto a fully fit DL with Green and Wright in rotation should be getting more penetration

    Thankfully BB is smarter than the lot of us and im not sure he sees OLB as key as some people here do .. guess we find out at draft time
  29. P4E*

    P4E* Banned

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    If we had a dwight freeney type player we would be ok. Sey seems way too slow and so does Warren. Losing Vrable wasn't a loss at all. AD can do a job and hopefully Crabble can come good next year. Signing JT would be a ideal.
  30. DaBruinz

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    Taylor is more than just an upgraded TBC. A healthy Taylor can play all 3 downs...
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