IMPORTANT Research! [Well, maybe not...]

[pats1]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

And the Wikipedia article referenced shows the "previous" season for upcoming 2009 (i.e. current 2008 franchise tag price), for the QBs to be $10.730 million. The new current 2009 season exclusive tag price WILL BE $14.7 million as Miguel projected.

If Asomugha is an exclusive franchise than he is the first of this year to use it. If you ACTUALLY READ the Wikipedia reference you will see the at the "Non Exclusive " tag was used for every single franchised player by any team in 2008. Freeny was an "Exclusive" tag in 2007 by the Colts, but the only one (see below from Wikipedia )....

2008 franchise-tagged players

• Arizona Cardinals - Karlos Dansby LB (Non-exclusive)[1]
• Baltimore Ravens - Terrell Suggs LB (Non-exclusive)[2]
• Carolina Panthers - Jordan Gross OL (Non-exclusive)[3]
• Cincinnati Bengals - Stacy Andrews OL (Non-exclusive)[4]
• Dallas Cowboys - Ken Hamlin SS (Non-exclusive)[5]
• Green Bay Packers - Corey Williams DT (Non-exclusive)[6]
• Indianapolis Colts - Dallas Clark TE (Non-exclusive)[7]
• Kansas City Chiefs - Jared Allen DE (Non-exclusive)[8]
• Oakland Raiders - Nnamdi Asomugha CB (Exclusive) [9]
• Philadelphia Eagles - L.J. Smith TE (Non-exclusive)[10]
• Seattle Seahawks - Marcus Trufant CB (Non-exclusive)[11]
• Tennessee Titans - Albert Haynesworth DT (Non-exclusive)[12]

[edit] 2008 exclusive franchise player costs by position

PositionCostQuarterback$10.730 millionOffensive Linemen (includes Offensive Tackle, Offensive Guard, Center)$7.455 millionDefensive End$8.879 millionWide Receiver$7.848 millionCornerback$9.465 millionSafety$4.396 millionLinebacker$8.065 millionRunning Back (includes all Fullbacks and Halfbacks)$6.538 millionDefensive Tackle$6.363 millionTight end$4.522 millionPunter or Kicker$2.514 million

[edit] 2007 franchise-tagged players ( Exclusive or non-exclusive)

• Chicago Bears - Lance Briggs LB (Non-exclusive)
• Cincinnati Bengals - Justin Smith DE (Non-exclusive)
• Detroit Lions - Cory Redding DT (Non-exclusive)
• Indianapolis Colts - Dwight Freeney DE (Exclusive)
• New England Patriots - Asante Samuel CB (Non-exclusive)
• New Orleans Saints - Charles Grant DE (Non-exclusive)
• Seattle Seahawks - Josh Brown PK (Non-exclusive)

So despite it all, I think that Micronin, & Wikipedia is correct.

If the Pats franchise Cassel as an "non-exclusive" tag, as the majority of Team always do, it will cost them $10.7 million, not $14 million plus. That would be the going 2009 price for an EXCLUSIVE tag.

The error here is that you are assuming the figures for the 2008 exclusive tags are the exact same as the figures for the 2009 non-exclusive tags. They are not. The former is calculated as of April, and the latter is calculated as of the end of the 2008 season.

As such, we won't know the 2009 exclusive numbers until this April. So saying it's $14M is impossible.

 

[Miguel]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

And the Wikipedia article referenced shows the "previous" season for upcoming 2009 (i.e. current 2008 franchise tag price), for the QBs to be $10.730 million. The new current 2009 season exclusive tag price WILL BE $14.7 million as Miguel projected.

I am projecting the non-exclusive tag.

I have posted how I came up with the number.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

Nate Burleson, actually.

Thanks Pats1.. I remembered it while I was looking at other WRs for the draft.. And then saw your post.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

And the Wikipedia article referenced shows the "previous" season for upcoming 2009 (i.e. current 2008 franchise tag price), for the QBs to be $10.730 million. The new current 2009 season exclusive tag price WILL BE $14.7 million as Miguel projected.

If Asomugha is an exclusive franchise than he is the first of this year to use it. If you ACTUALLY READ the Wikipedia reference you will see the at the "Non Exclusive " tag was used for every single franchised player by any team in 2008. Freeny was an "Exclusive" tag in 2007 by the Colts, but the only one (see below from Wikipedia )....

2008 franchise-tagged players

• Arizona Cardinals - Karlos Dansby LB (Non-exclusive)[1]
• Baltimore Ravens - Terrell Suggs LB (Non-exclusive)[2]
• Carolina Panthers - Jordan Gross OL (Non-exclusive)[3]
• Cincinnati Bengals - Stacy Andrews OL (Non-exclusive)[4]
• Dallas Cowboys - Ken Hamlin SS (Non-exclusive)[5]
• Green Bay Packers - Corey Williams DT (Non-exclusive)[6]
• Indianapolis Colts - Dallas Clark TE (Non-exclusive)[7]
• Kansas City Chiefs - Jared Allen DE (Non-exclusive)[8]
• Oakland Raiders - Nnamdi Asomugha CB (Exclusive) [9]
• Philadelphia Eagles - L.J. Smith TE (Non-exclusive)[10]
• Seattle Seahawks - Marcus Trufant CB (Non-exclusive)[11]
• Tennessee Titans - Albert Haynesworth DT (Non-exclusive)[12]

[edit] 2008 exclusive franchise player costs by position

PositionCostQuarterback$10.730 millionOffensive Linemen (includes Offensive Tackle, Offensive Guard, Center)$7.455 millionDefensive End$8.879 millionWide Receiver$7.848 millionCornerback$9.465 millionSafety$4.396 millionLinebacker$8.065 millionRunning Back (includes all Fullbacks and Halfbacks)$6.538 millionDefensive Tackle$6.363 millionTight end$4.522 millionPunter or Kicker$2.514 million

[edit] 2007 franchise-tagged players ( Exclusive or non-exclusive)

• Chicago Bears - Lance Briggs LB (Non-exclusive)
• Cincinnati Bengals - Justin Smith DE (Non-exclusive)
• Detroit Lions - Cory Redding DT (Non-exclusive)
• Indianapolis Colts - Dwight Freeney DE (Exclusive)
• New England Patriots - Asante Samuel CB (Non-exclusive)
• New Orleans Saints - Charles Grant DE (Non-exclusive)
• Seattle Seahawks - Josh Brown PK (Non-exclusive)

So despite it all, I think that Micronin, & Wikipedia is correct.

If the Pats franchise Cassel as an "non-exclusive" tag, as the majority of Team always do, it will cost them $10.7 million, not $14 million plus. That would be the going 2009 price for an EXCLUSIVE tag.

AZPatsfan - When it comes to having the Franchise tag values, the only people I trust more than Miguel is the actual NFL Accountants.

The numbers listed on Wikipedia were for the 2008 free agency period which started on March 1st 2008 and ended in July of 2008. Those are not the numbers for the 2009 free agency period. You are getting confused by what the NFL means by "previous year". The salaries that will be used to figured out the 2009 Franchise numbers will be the salaries of the top 5 highest paid QBs for the 2008 season. So, it will be the 14.7 million Miguel is saying and NOT the 10.7 million you are suggesting.

The EXCLUSIVE franchise tag number would be even HIGHER since it takes into consideration who the highest 5 players would be for 2009. And it can actually go UP as people are signed.

Also, Asomugha had the exclusive franchise tag put on for the 2008 season. Meaning that his salary was determined by the top 5 salaries for CBs as of April something 2008. Not the top 5 salaries from 2007.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

Thank you DaBruinz, for claryfying the three possible tags. But see my other clarifying answer. Miguel may be correct. If he is (and he usually is), then the Wikipedia article is wrong. But if you read it, it certainly looks authoritative.

AzPatsfan - your clarifying answer is incorrect because your interpretation of what is being said is incorrect. Miguel is correct for 2009. The Wikipedia is correct for 2008.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

that is not true Oakland Raiders - Nnamdi Asomugha CB (Exclusive)

But there is no reason for the Patriots to use the exclusive on MC. If your goal is tag and trade and another team grabs him you have basically traded him for 2 first round draft picks. Which is more than anyone realistically predicts he would be worth in trade.

Thanks. I stand corrected. The ONLY franchise tags in 2007 and 2008 were oen each for Freeney in 2007 and Asomugha in 2008. All the others were non-exclusive...

If the price is only $10.7 million it easier to tag and keep for the 2009 season until Brady's health situation is clear. Please recall that The Patriots paid that much for Ty Law and Asante Samuel when the cap was consideraby lower. Having at least one starting QB is much more important.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

If the price is only $10.7 million

First you complain that no one did the research to come up with the $14+ mil number, and then you toss out an unsubstantiated $10.7 repeatedly.

Just post the five QBs you are using for the top five, and what their numbers are.

 

[pats1]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

Thanks. I stand corrected. The ONLY franchise tags in 2007 and 2008 were oen each for Freeney in 2007 and Asomugha in 2008. All the others were non-exclusive...

If the price is only $10.7 million it easier to tag and keep for the 2009 season until Brady's health situation is clear. Please recall that The Patriots paid that much for Ty Law and Asante Samuel when the cap was consideraby lower. Having at least one starting QB is much more important.

But it's not $10.7M.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: IMPORTANT Research!

Thanks. I stand corrected. The ONLY franchise tags in 2007 and 2008 were oen each for Freeney in 2007 and Asomugha in 2008. All the others were non-exclusive...

If the price is only $10.7 million it easier to tag and keep for the 2009 season until Brady's health situation is clear. Please recall that The Patriots paid that much for Ty Law and Asante Samuel when the cap was consideraby lower. Having at least one starting QB is much more important.

AZPatsFan - I am going to be nice this one last time and then I'll let the monster out. The 10.7 million franchise tag number was for the 2008 free agency period. The 10.7 million is NOT the number for the 2009 free agency period. YOU and only YOU are the person who is confused on this point and don't seem to understand how the system works.

What makes it even more dumbfounding is that Miguel SHOWED YOU the players actual salaries from 2008 and how he got the number for 2009.

The 14.7 million number that Miguel is using is probably withing 1% of what the actual number will be to place the NON-EXCLUSIVE Franchise tag on Matt Cassel.

 

[ayjackson]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ssel-impact-salary-cap-page4.html#post1178363

I stand by my research.

Just curious Miguel, whether your opinion on Cassel's worth in trade has changed at all since that post on November 24?

 

[Miguel]

Just curious Miguel, whether your opinion on Cassel's worth in trade has changed at all since that post on November 24?

What was my opinion then???

 

[DaBruinz]

What was my opinion then???

Miguel - You didn't post your opinion then. You just corrected people on their misconceptions. However, just because you didn't state your opinion then, doesn't mean you didn't have one.

And AYJackson wanted to know if your opinion on Cassel's worth in trade has changed since Thanksgiving...

So, I'll ask.

Miguel, what is your opinion on Cassel's worth in trade and has it changed since the long thread on 11/24?

 

[Miguel]

Personally, I would not trade higher than a 2nd round pick for Cassel. I think that he benefited from
1.) the Patriots playing one of the easiest schedules based on 2007 records
2.) the Patriots playing one of the easiest schedules based on 2008 records.
3.) Moss and Welker
4.) taking over a 18-1 team
5.) being in the Patriots system for 3 years
6.) playing 12 games against the bottom half of passing defenses.

If one includes sacks, his YPA is rather pedestrian.

My opinion of Cassel has not changed.

Do I think that the Patriots could get more than a 2nd round pick for Cassel??Yes but I just do not think that he is worth it.

 

[ayjackson]

What was my opinion then???

Sorry, Miguel. I looked back at the thread and it was not your opinion that I was reading. And thanks for answering DB's question anyways.

 

[Miguel]

Sorry, Miguel. I looked back at the thread and it was not your opinion that I was reading. And thanks for answering DB's question anyways.

Not a problem. I did not think that I ever posted an opinion on Cassel's worth.

 

[Miguel]

Not that it matters this is my guesstimate at the 2009 exclusive franchise tag number. These numbers are the players' 2009 cap numbers.

Peyton Manning Indianapolis $21,199,998
Carson Palmer Cincinnati $15,730,000
Tom Brady New England $14,620,000
Drew Brees New Orleans $14,000,000
Big Ben Pittsburgh $13,220,000


$15,754,000

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Not that it matters this is my guesstimate at the 2009 exclusive franchise tag number. These numbers are the players' 2009 cap numbers.

Peyton Manning Indianapolis $21,199,998
Carson Palmer Cincinnati $15,730,000
Tom Brady New England $14,620,000
Drew Brees New Orleans $14,000,000
Big Ben Pittsburgh $13,220,000


$15,754,000

Timing question. Let's say the Colts rework Peyton's contract sometime soon. When does the franchise tag # get 'set'? If it's early on might the Colts, knowing the Pats situation with franchising on the table just wait past that date to redo Peyton for cap purposes?

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Timing question. Let's say the Colts rework Peyton's contract sometime soon. When does the franchise tag # get 'set'? If it's early on might the Colts, knowing the Pats situation with franchising on the table just wait past that date to redo Peyton for cap purposes?

Wouldn't that change the exclusive number, but not the non-exclusive number.

 

[DaBruinz]

Timing question. Let's say the Colts rework Peyton's contract sometime soon. When does the franchise tag # get 'set'? If it's early on might the Colts, knowing the Pats situation with franchising on the table just wait past that date to redo Peyton for cap purposes?

As GIGH rightly points out, the Colts changing Manning's contract would have no affect on the Pats putting the "Non-Exclusive" Franchise tag on Cassel. It would only affect Cassel and the Patriots if it was the "Exclusive" Tag.

The Exclusive Franchise tag number is set in April sometime, if I remember correctly.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Personally, I would not trade higher than a 2nd round pick for Cassel. I think that he benefited from
1.) the Patriots playing one of the easiest schedules based on 2007 records
2.) the Patriots playing one of the easiest schedules based on 2008 records.

It was in the third quartile, but it wasn't one of the easiest.

On the flip side, you could also argue that he suffered from a fairly impressive number of incompletions/INTs that were mostly the receivers' fault.