IF 4-3 becomes the base defense, I like it

[Ring 6]

It's yet to be seen what BB has in mind for defensive scheme(s) this season, but count me in favor of all the 4-3 speculation. My guess is that BB will be running all kinds of hybrids and variations from 3-4 to 4-3 and beyond, but here is what I like about the 4-3: it's more aggressive. It's also more fun to watch from a fan standpoint vs. the contain-oriented "bend-but-don't-break" 3-4. It's comparatively high-risk/high-reward, but if it WORKS, we'll see more three-and-outs, shorter fields for our offense, and perhaps less need for elite speed at WR.

I'd be surprised if BB makes a radical change in the base defense effective day one, but you never know. Just imagine if Haynesworth really comes through and we add another beast to the mix like Tommie Harris. There might be an opportunity for the Patriots to field a truly dominating defense unlike any other we've seen in BB's tenure.

Why would you assume it would not be a 2gap 43?

 

[Ring 6]

I thought his issue was coverage, that is why there was reluctance in the past to put him on the outside???

He is fast, but not a cover guy.

Guyton struggles with shedding blockers, and is an abysmal pass rusher.

 

[Ring 6]

Well the 43 fits our personnel much better than the 34 did last season. Our DL is better suited to get to the QB then our OLB are.

The personell on the field wouldn't change in a 43 vs a 34.
What DL are yuo expecting to get to the QB? Only Wright, and to a lesser degree Haynesworth have had any success rushing the passer in the NFL.

 

[Ring 6]

The thing about changing to 4-3 is it requires a lot of re-tooling in technique and reads by the front seven especially. I think that's part of why Ty Warren was let go, because his physical skill set is geared more toward 3-4 play. Hard to tell how the holdover crop of linebackers would shake down in a new system. Suffice to say that the faster guys naturally will be on the outside and the MLB will have to be pretty stout. Also, it'll be interesting to see IF BB goes for linebacker in free agency, what kind of system he comes from.

Waren would be using the same techniques in a 34 or 43.
You are talking as if there IS a new system.
At this point all we have is Ty Warren making comments possibly to save face on his way out the door.

 

[Ring 6]

As long as we become an aggressive defense and not a 4-3 read and react.

We have spent 10 years not being an aggressive blitzing defense, and have won more games than any team in the NFL, more Championships than any team in the NFL, led the NFL in takeaways, and been 4th in fewest points allowed. That is a bad thing why?

 

[DarrylS]

Guyton struggles with shedding blockers, and is an abysmal pass rusher.

I also thought there were issues with his ability to cover tight ends..

 

[Tunescribe]

Why would you assume it would not be a 2gap 43?

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just hoping it's a blow-'em-up penetrating 4-3. That's the kind of player Haynesworth is, and the kind of player Tommie Harris was.

We have spent 10 years not being an aggressive blitzing defense, and have won more games than any team in the NFL, more Championships than any team in the NFL, led the NFL in takeaways, and been 4th in fewest points allowed. That is a bad thing why?

I didn't SAY it was a bad thing! But just because it has worked in the past doesn't mean it always will work, or that a change won't make things even better (re., the last two playoff performances and last season's third-down woes). If BB doesn't think he can get the players he needs to effectively execute his scheme, I applaud his POSSIBLE willingness to change schemes. Aside from that, an aggressive blitzing defense is much more fun to watch. And before you ask, no, I wouldn't want that at the expense of winning.

 

[VJCPatriot]

We have spent 10 years not being an aggressive blitzing defense, and have won more games than any team in the NFL, more Championships than any team in the NFL, led the NFL in takeaways, and been 4th in fewest points allowed. That is a bad thing why?

I think you're missing the point. The Pats haven't gotten to the Superbowl since 2007 and have had back to back 1st round exits. The rules of the game have CHANGED and BB is always tinkering with his defense to keep pace. Adding a 4-3 look does not surprise me at all. As PFK mentioned a hybrid 2gap/1gap 4-3 that accentuates the strengths of his players on D could be the ideal compromise. Wilfork could play the 2 gap role, with Haynesworth playing a 1 gap technique. Both need to be doubled regardless. Now you've got 2 players taking up 4 players. This opens up a lot for the rest of the defense.

When you further consider the Pats lack of depth at linebacker switching to the 4-3 makes sense as well. With Mayo taking over the Will, and Spikes playing the Sam, that means you only really need one other good starting quality OLB in such a scheme. Will the Pats flip back to the 3-4 at times to give different looks? I don't doubt it. But it also looks like from the way camp has been run that the 4-3 will be a major part of our defense this season.

 

[strngplyr]

I think you're missing the point. The Pats haven't gotten to the Superbowl since 2007 and have had back to back 1st round exits. The rules of the game have CHANGED and BB is always tinkering with his defense to keep pace. Adding a 4-3 look does not surprise me at all. As PFK mentioned a hybrid 2gap/1gap 4-3 that accentuates the strengths of his players on D could be the ideal compromise. Wilfork could play the 2 gap role, with Haynesworth playing a 1 gap technique. Both need to be doubled regardless. Now you've got 2 players taking up 4 players. This opens up a lot for the rest of the defense.

When you further consider the Pats lack of depth at linebacker switching to the 4-3 makes sense as well. With Mayo taking over the Will, and Spikes playing the Sam, that means you only really need one other good starting quality OLB in such a scheme. Will the Pats flip back to the 3-4 at times to give different looks? I don't doubt it. But it also looks like from the way camp has been run that the 4-3 will be a major part of our defense this season.

Spikes won't play outside, he'll be the Mike.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Spikes won't play outside, he'll be the Mike.

Thanks for the catch, I meant Spikes at the Mike. That's why I said we'd only need one good OLB after mentioning Mayo and Spikes.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

Our 3rd down defense has been embarrassing lately, yet we went 14-2. Our offense is staying the same/getting better and our defense has no where to go but up. So I'd say I'm pretty excited about what Bill is doing defensively.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Maybe BB is acknowledging that acquiring the proper talent to run the 3-4 is becoming more difficult with half the league running it. Adding a mediocre Matt Roth or a mediocre Manny Lawson to an already mediocre OLB corp isn't going to help that much.

Cunningham/Moore-Haynesworth-Wilfork-Wright on the line and Mayo-Spikes-Fletcher at linebacker doesn't sound too bad to me and I've always preferred the 3-4 defense to the 4-3. Cunningham/Ninkovich isn't exactly Tippett/Blackmon or Mcginest/Vrabel.

 

[italia44]

I think some of us are kinda underestimating what we have here,if BB goes 4-3.

First off is the "Haynesworth" factor,this affects 2 things,imo:

1.TE's and RB's:The new "fashionista" around the league is the smaller,faster TE,who can break off the line into the middle-deep of the def secondary.The problem here,now,is 3 players we already have....

Cunningham at RDE:I think we already have Osi in a 3-point stance and we don't have to give up a high draft choice to get him...THIS is the guy and he's going to be a stud.

Mike Wright at LDE:Always liked him,just too light in the 3-4.High motor....gets downhill to the QB,potential sack leader,imo.

Eric Moore:I really like what I saw from this kid.Good size,fast.....Has that fire-in-the eyes factor,when rushing the QB.

The AH factor to me is:stunts,stunts and more stunts.This is a smart football player.....They WILL use him to stunt thru the center gap,with someone like Spikes ,delaying behind him.Baltimore uses Ngata on a center stunt and it makes you..."cry for your mama" to see him run free...not the Center gap,but the FULDA gap..OUCH!

This is where we get to the opposing RB's:hesitation,hesitation,hesitation.If you're going to put TE into the pattern,then the recognition problem falls on the running back.This is actually.the biggest thing the jets did to us.It's not that BJE and Woodhead are too small,its the recognition factor.........whether to release,draw...and "where the heck is Brady?".
It's the nanoseconds,that kill you,not the seconds.

Next:Whether a one-gap or 2-gap,4-3,The DL slightly rises in importance and conversely,the 3 LB's are slightly less.You need them to be a little faster....side-to-side and better tacklers.Spikes,Mayo and Ninko/Fletcher will do it for me.Not Guyton....he has the speed,but not the recognition or tackling skills.

Now,I'll get to the BB Hybrid/Disguise 4-3:He'll put Chung or Barrett into the box,giving a possible 3-4 look to the offensive line(remember the stunts).Chung has the speed and Barrett at 225lbs will definately give a linebacker look to the offense....Not James Sanders...smart,but too slow and doesn't move well,side-to-side.They will play zone,behind this,but not Tampa-2(it would waste the skills of Bodden and McCourty.
If they go 3-wide,the pats will counter with bigger/fasterowling/Butler.

Sorry about the long post,it's usually not my style.I'm just so excited this week.....my peabrain will just not shut down.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

It is going to be interesting to see how the JESTS stand up to our 4 -3 this year...

 

[Sciz]

Sorry about the long post,it's usually not my style.I'm just so excited this week.....my peabrain will just not shut down.

No need to apologize. You've had a few of these long informative posts, and I thoroughly enjoy every word!

 

[Ring 6]

Our 3rd down defense has been embarrassing lately, yet we went 14-2. Our offense is staying the same/getting better and our defense has no where to go but up. So I'd say I'm pretty excited about what Bill is doing defensively.

We were something like 3rd in the league in points allowed the last 12 weeks of the season. Hard to accept there is nowhere to go but up from that.

 

[Tunescribe]

We were something like 3rd in the league in points allowed the last 12 weeks of the season. Hard to accept there is nowhere to go but up from that.

I'll forward this to the Pats defensive coaching staff and let them know you think all this 4-3 nonsense is unnecessary. Do you want them to drop Haynesworth and tell Tommie Harris not to bother? :singing:

 

[Ring 6]

I think you're missing the point.

What point? That the team has been the most successful in the league for the last 10 years with a conservative defensive philosophy?

The Pats haven't gotten to the Superbowl since 2007 and have had back to back 1st round exits.

Being one of the 27 teams that werent in the last 3 SBs is not the makings of abandoning a successful philiosphy.

The rules of the game have CHANGED and BB is always tinkering with his defense to keep pace.

We aren't talking about tinkering here, we are talking about a 180 degree philosophical change.

Adding a 4-3 look does not surprise me at all. As PFK mentioned a hybrid 2gap/1gap 4-3 that accentuates the strengths of his players on D could be the ideal compromise.

Who is BB compromising with? Playing 4-3 vs 3-4 is a minor change IMO. Abandoning 2 gap discipline in the base to play aggressive 1 gap style is changing the basis of everything BB believes about defense.

Wilfork could play the 2 gap role, with Haynesworth playing a 1 gap technique. Both need to be doubled regardless. Now you've got 2 players taking up 4 players. This opens up a lot for the rest of the defense.

I'm thinking you don't get the concept of 2 gap and 1 gap. You can't really play some guys 2 gap and other guys 1 gap, because the point is team defense and all players meshing together.
There will not be a play all season long when both of these players are doubleteamed. TRUE doubleteams are very rare. Sure, they may require help, but no offense would ever tie up 4 blockers on 2 guys. It would cause the play to fail before it started.

When you further consider the Pats lack of depth at linebacker switching to the 4-3 makes sense as well.

Not at all, because you are taking at least one OLB and making him a DE. You will have LESS depth at LB in a 43 than a 34.

With Mayo taking over the Will, and Spikes playing the Sam, that means you only really need one other good starting quality OLB in such a scheme.

Only because one will be playing DE. You have the same 7 guys on the field in a 34 or 43, the difference is what you call Cunningham. (or Moore or whichever 34 OLB/43 DE you have on the field.

Will the Pats flip back to the 3-4 at times to give different looks? I don't doubt it. But it also looks like from the way camp has been run that the 4-3 will be a major part of our defense this season.

Camp so far tells us nothing because more years than not they play 43 at the begininng of camp and still end up in a 34.
As I said, I don't really care whether its 34 or 43, but it would be mind boggling for BB to abandon the 2 gap philosophy he has preached for 30 years.

 

[Ring 6]

I'll forward this to the Pats defensive coaching staff and let them know you think all this 4-3 nonsense is unnecessary. Do you want them to drop Haynesworth and tell Tommie Harris not to bother? :singing:

Dude, no reason to get all offended because someone disagrees with you.
As I have said, 34 or 43, doesn't really matter, you will have the same guys playing mostly the same techniques. Haynesworth and Harris work just as well at DE in the 34 as they do at DT in the 43.
My contention is that after 30 years of coaching 2 gap, you are going to have to show me more than a Ty Warren parting shot to get me to believe BB has abandoned his most basic philosophy of defensive football.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just hoping it's a blow-'em-up penetrating 4-3. That's the kind of player Haynesworth is, and the kind of player Tommie Harris was.

That is not what BB has ever utilized, and his success speaks for itself.
I think you will find that both of those players would do very well as 2gap 34 DEs, moving inside to rush the passer in sub packages.
It doesnt really matter how good you are at penetrating when you play 1 gap 50% of the time you take yourself out of the play. BB has always preached playing run defense by assinging 2 players to each gap to control the line of scrimmage rather than shooting gaps and hoping for a tackle in the backfield at the expense of big runs.

I didn't SAY it was a bad thing! But just because it has worked in the past doesn't mean it always will work, or that a change won't make things even better (re., the last two playoff performances and last season's third-down woes).

If your philosophy makes you the best team long term, the chance of change making it better is not real good.
What do 3rd down 'woes' have to do with how we should play base defense? What did defensive base scheme have to do with the last 2 playoff losses?

If BB doesn't think he can get the players he needs to effectively execute his scheme, I applaud his POSSIBLE willingness to change schemes. Aside from that, an aggressive blitzing defense is much more fun to watch. And before you ask, no, I wouldn't want that at the expense of winning.

I would disdain BB abandoning his philosophy. Willingness to change is a good quality in someone who's philiosophy has led to failure.
I understand it seems like it would be fun to see aggressive defense, but how fun was 2005 when we were allowing all of those big plays? Aggressive defense results in big plays in both directions, and not all are fun. We have been the most successful franchise in the league with a coach who is the most conservative in the game (even the risks he takes, like going for it on 4th down, are really conservative moves because he is playing the odds) Therefore, I hope we do not become 'aggressive' because I believe in BBs philopsophy, not its antithesis.