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I think Stallworth met expectations.

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  1. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Remembering back to pre-season predictions (when I first raised the prospect of a perfect season, thank you very much!) I have to say that Stallworth has about met my expectations.

    He's got 43 catches with one game to go, averaging 15 ypc.

    In the preseason I was looking for about that number of catches, though I expected a higher YPC.

    But with Moss and Welker seeing so many passes going their way, I think you really have to factor that into Stallworth's numbers. I mean at any given moment there's a LOT of options for Brady - and Moss is the preferred deep option and that's allowed the coaches to use Stallworth in other situations - which explains the lower YPC I think.

    Those who are disappointed in Stallworth I think aren't factoring in the fact that Moss and Welker have taken opportunities away from Stallworth and that's STILL a very respectable total.

    The bottom line for me was that if he had a Philadelphia type season for us this year (I felt 45 catches would be enough) - serving in the role of a deep threat to keep DBs off the line of scrimmage - he'd be serving his role well.

    I never expected the outrageous numbers for Welker and Moss - and even Gaffney - that took away so many passes that would be thrown his way and have him STILL pick up that many passes. I actually think that's quite the feat.

    Now, none of that means he should be back next year at the salary he was signed to - but he's very good "Moss" Insurance and, as he did in Philly, I feel that if he needeed to, he could easilly play the role of deep go to WR.

    So basically until Moss inks a new contract, I expect Stallworth will remain on the team. Once Moss signs all bets are off - but I'm still cognizant of the need for a deep threat WR should Moss ever suffer an injury.
  2. pheenix11

    pheenix11 Rookie

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    I think Stallworth has been pretty good, its just that there are only so many balls to go around with Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Watson & Faulk.

    Gaffney has been great this year as well. The whole WR core is just amazing. I just wish Watson was healthy more often, I think he has the potential to be a top TE.
  3. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    It's funny though - most people are estatic with Gaffney and are disappointed with Stallworth.

    So much so you'd think that Gaffney has actually caught more passes than Stallworth when that's not the case
  4. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    Stallworth has been good, its just if Moss was not here he be the number 1 reciver.. Also I think Gaffney has gotten better has the yr has gone on..
  5. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree. And the significant thing is at just 27 he has remained healthy throughout and appears to be happy with his role. Take Moss out of the equation, even for 3-4 weeks, and Stallworth tops a thousand yards and adds half a dozen TD's and the beat goes on. Randy has also remained healthy, but a week or so after this upcoming Superbowl he turns 31...

    I like Gaffney too. The fact that they didn't extend him leads me to believe that they may well intend to roll the dice with Stallworth as the 1b to Moss' 1a rather than paying Jabar substantially more to be a servicable #2 to Moss. But considering we were the team who engineered his re-emergence as a legit WR, he may just want to stick around on a reasonable deal with makeable incentives for a backup #2 who gets his touches as a 4th WR in a Brady led offense.

    The key to cap management is not overpaying for marginal talent. Stallworth is legit, and the deal he's already signed to is not an overpayment for his talent in the present market. It's less than Branch is making in Seattle and perhaps more significantly a lot less than the deal Reggie Wayne signed two years ago to keep him along side Marvin Harrison in transition and as insurance. That deal has kept the Colts afloat absent Harrison virtually all season. I think Randy will stay for less than Harrison money, and if he and Stallworth remain I think Brady's extension through 2013 or so reflects his appreciation of that. Stallworth's contract can be managed in a way that his cap hits are those of a #2 for 2008 and 2009 and they increase to what will by 2010 still remain reasonable for a #1 who will only turn 30 midway through that season while Randy Moss will turn 34 just weeks after it ends.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  6. Frezo

    Frezo Rookie

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    Gaffney's numbers are good. 36 - 449 - 12.5 and 5 TDs. He certainly earned his paycheck and does have 2 more TDs than DS. It appears that letting Reche go was the right decision.
  7. PatsFanInVa

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    The premise of the thread is right on, since Stallworth was here before we hit the jackpot with Moss.

    But I think that fact changes how we think about him this off-season. I don't think both him and Randy stay (which you noted might be the case.) The only exception I can think of is if he just loves winning, and sees himself being Randy's "understudy" until Randy runs out of gas or good vibes, and getting paid accordingly.

    I think his value to the team is along that continuum. He hasn't stunk, he's just landed in a bad situation, were he to look at it selfishly. To his credit, knowing all the dynamics that have gone into the decisions this year, he hasn't been a dick about it at all.

    But I think he gets a restructure offer from the team this offseason.

    PFnV
  8. ShrewBeer

    ShrewBeer Rookie

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    mark my words, imo, donte will be a KILLER in the playoffs! everyone will be going nuts about how to keep him
  9. bruinator

    bruinator Rookie

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    After Moss and Welker, Gafney has gotten the most playing time amoung receivers the last few games. STALLWORTH AND wASHINGTON ARE GONE IN THE OFF SEASON, JMO.
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are some things they could do in restructure that he might not mind, like paying some money sooner against scrapping some later. But they really don't have to. His cap hit once his option bonus and even roster bonus money is converted to signing bonus drops exponentially. If he's a $3.5-4M cap hit for 2008 and 2009, and then a $7-8M cap hit in 2010-2012, that's not necessarily unworkable. Moss is 4 years older than Donte and could easily be gone or wearing down substantially by 2010. And the AAV cap for #1 WR's by then will likely be double digits and a new TV deal will be looming. I'm just not sure you want to walk away from a 27 year old legit #1 signed to a reasonable deal for 5 more years and put all your eggs into the 31 year old Moss basket. Brady can do more with less, but the more you give him the more he can do, too. Can take substantial heat off a transitioning defense, too.
  11. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    Between Gaffney and Donte we have at least solid #2 potential so I really don't think either of them will be the 'must have' guy as long as we keep one.

    Donte has more upside for a future #1, but Gaffney may just be getting the job done better at this point.

    I think the Gaffney versus Donte debate will build steam this offseason, while we leave the real decisions to the Bioli braintrust. :D

    I did not have any particular expectations for Donte at the beginning of the season because we were loaded at WR. I knew Welker would be our next Troy Brown. I liked the Moss trade from the moment the news broke. Donte was more of a enigma to me, and he still is. Why is he not playing more than Gaffney? I think he may have some focus and concentration issues.
  12. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    if we let gaffney go, it would be a shame....i like donte, but i had rather have gaffney fro 3/4 mil a yr rather then stallworht at 9mil for next season...
  13. FibSeq13478

    FibSeq13478 Rookie

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    I think his performance met expectations for the most part but I expected that chemistry between Stallworth and Brady to have improved towards the end of the season that he would trust him more on 3rd downs and other clutch situations. It seems to me that Brady has more trust in Gaffney being at the right place at the right time in those situations than Stallworth.

    By the way, there are some interesting stats regarding wide receiver performance on footballoutsiders.com at http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

    One reason Gaffney's playing time has gone up recently may be due to his higher completion percentage (72%) compared to Stallworth (61%).
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  14. WhiZa

    WhiZa Rookie

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    I don't think there is anyone that is disappointed with Stallworth. It's just those of us who are skeptical of his cap number next year. He definitely earned his paycheck this year tho.
  15. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If that were the case you might have a point. But Stallworth isn't $9M next season, he's $6M and that could easily be restructured without his giving up a cent of the contract to a $3.5M cap hit. Gaffney will not be 3/4 of a million next year either. More likely he would require a 4 year $13M+ deal like Crayton's if not more from some receiver desperate team like the one that overpaid Givens, and his isn't already built in to the 2008-2012 Patriots cap as Stallworth's is because Gaffney is a FA.
  16. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Don't know what will be available in the "sooner" category, but of course he wouldn't mind getting it sooner than later. Of course we all have our eyes on the magic number 2010... but any one individual can be "written around" for a year or two.

    Two compelling things about your case: He could be a young Moss in training. Sorta. I don't think he ever reaches that level of athleticism, and his hands aren't as good. But would he be the best deep threat we've ever had, if we never met Moss? Probably. Anyway the point is the youth -- 4 more years of comparable downfield menace? Yeah, very nice to have. And meanwhile, if Chad is ever to see the field, he can be getting the spot duty in preparation to make the same segue again down the road. Of course, I don't see this happening, from all I've heard about CJ. Hope it's all bull, but there's a distinctly Bethelian feel to the CJ pick, if rumors are to be believed. (In fairness, last year was a tad early to necessarily expect much of a contribution, and this year he's under an avalanche of talent.)

    Right, that was thing one, the fact that Stallworth is comparatively young, and nice to have around.

    Thing 2 is that we don't know Stallworth's frame of mind. He seems to be pretty damn cool with the whole arrangement... in the offseason, if asked to restructure, we'll see.

    Nah, I don't want to ditch him. He hasn't proven in any way undesireable. But the cap is the cap - some names, some depth, some something has to give to accomodate the stars starting to fill the Pats' roster.

    PFnV
  17. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    In some ways he did. He runs great after the catch but doesn't seem able to use his speed the way I had hoped. Lately I cut all the wr's slack because it appears Brady has been force feeding Moss and disregarding wide open players.

    However I'm not sure of his ability to get open. And I'm also not sure the coaches use his speed as a decoy for Welker and Moss. I'm also not sure of his hands and if this another reason Gaffney seems to have upended him.

    I guess I'm just naive and just can't read the guy on the field. I know what the other 3 Wr's are all about. Stallworth? Talented at times and non existent at others. Design? I don't know, But I'd like to see him back next season at the right price.
  18. FrontSeven

    FrontSeven Rookie

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    I am happy with both guys.

    I'll tell you what Stallworth does better than any of the others. Think of those situations where (Colts) where they have stopped Moss and Welker and you need a WR screen play in the hands of somebody with moves and speed. That's Donte. Moss can do it too, but assuming you want Moss as a decoy, it's Donte that is dangerous with the ball in his hands. He's a play maker who can catch a 2 yard pass and make magic happen.
  19. primetime

    primetime Rookie

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    If Moss wasn't here, he'd have been a 90-100 catch guy, no problem. I still think Stallworth is going to explode in the playoffs. He's been good, great at times... but I think the best is yet to come.
  20. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    I am not at all sure if that is true. Why isn't he playing more now?

    If he explodes in the playoffs, like Gaffney kinda did last year, than that changes things. But as of today, he is more talented than Gaffney but not better utilized.

    It could be that he took time to learn the system, and if we see a lot of him in the playoffs, that would be the biggest sign (for us fans anyway) that he will be a bigger priority than Gaffney in the offseason.

    Bioli may not view Donte as a legitimate #1 waiting in the wings unless he really possesses the intangibles and intelligence of a Moss or any true #1. Donte could price himself off this team, especially if he thinks he is being kept from producing his numbers due to coaching/other WRs. We have seen this scenario over and over lately. He has a contract on paper, but both sides will have to agree to honor it, as we have seen go wrong before.

    I think we should sign Gaffney for the $2 million team 'middle class' yearly average if possible, and then work on what Donte is worth. Or at least try to secure Gaffney's services first. Then we can take at least some of Gaffney's salary out of Donte's yearly figure with creative re-structuring. Obviously, we aren't going to break the bank for Gaffney but he may be willing to deal with the team that has saved his career.

    The wild card is really what Randy is going to cost in the equation. I'll take a couple more years of Moss over keeping both Donte and Gaffney, personally...
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  21. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Regardless of how Stallworth sees himself, he stays unless the Pats say otherwise. He has a five-year contract.

    What choice does Stallworth have?
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  22. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Front Office has guaranteed that 2006 will not be repeated. We will never have another year without even one quality wide receiver. Stallworth and Welker are signed long-term. They are stars and the base for the future.
    I see absolutely no reason to tear up Stallworth's contract because we were able to add Moss. Stallworth's contract is a fine contract. He can be one of our top receivers for many years. Stallworth has done everything asked of him, and then some. And yes, he is all-pro, who can add yards after the catch.

    We COULD ask Washington to take a major cut or leave. I wouldn't. Washington also has done everything asked of him and is a PERFECT #5 receiver, a player who could step in as needed, but be a top special teamer when not needed as a receiver. We haven't needed him this year as a receiver. He hasn't whined. He has just done his job. This is just the kind of player that we should want to build our team around.

    So we have a base of Stallworth, Welker and Washington for the next four years. That is AWESOME! The wide receiver position will NOT be a weakness for Brady again.

    There are many unknowns. But these challenges make a solid group into a great receiving group. There is no reason to give up the base, just because we add quality. Moss may or not be re-signed, and who knows how many years he will play. Ditto for Gaffney. Jackson may give us value in 2008 and/or 2009, or not. The point is that we do not need rely on any of this. The Front Office saw the light, saw the gaping hole in the 2006 team, and solved it for the next several years!

    For the handwringers with regard to the cap, please understand that the patriots are one of two teams who understand the cap better than anyone on the inside or outside (well expect for Miguel and Adam).

    Please repeat after me. "We are not in cap trouble. We have not been in cap trouble since before the 2003 season, and we will not be in cap trouble for the foreseeable future." This is Kraft's promise to you. Please believe and understand that this is a constant, the constant that will guarantee competitive teams, teams with a shot at the playoffs and Super Bowl, every year that Kraft owns the team. I am not saying that we should discuss the cap and cap effects. Surely, I enjoying doing so. But, in the end, I know that this will never be a worry.

  23. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Stallworth is an all around WR - if the team needs him as a deep threat he can average 19 ypc like last season. If they have a deep threat he can be a jack of all trades like this season and 15 ypc.

    No disrespect to Gaffney - he's made some GREAT CLUTCH catches - but he's a 10-13 ypc guy. I almost look at him as a TE in terms of production.

    The MAIN DIFFERENCE between choosing between one or the other on the team is this:

    What happens if Moss gets injured?

    Who will step in to be the deep threat to keep defenses honest. Gaffney? Exceptionally doubtful.

    If you could have only one on your team the choice is obvious - its Stallworth. Otherwise you're going back to last season with no deep threat and defenses stacking the line. Gaffney might as well be Caldwell if we have no deep threat.
  24. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have been very happy with Stallworth's ability to run after the catch, and much less so with his ability to catch the ball. Having said that, as people look to next year and discuss Stallworth vs. Gaffney, there's another receiver being overlooked. Chad Jackson will be another year removed from his injury. The team will, no doubt, assess his game and try to figure out where he'll fit in. It may be that Belioli determines that C.J. is the next Bethel, it may be that C.J. will be the next Gaffney, and it may be that C.J. will be the next Donte. I think his progress and perceived NFL skill set will be a vital part of the decision making process.
  25. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I'm not disagreeing - we'll see what happens with Jackson. But they key for Stallworth will be whether there's a new deal with Moss.

    They will do their best to lock up Moss before they have to pay Stallworth another installment in his contract. If they don't sign Moss, Stallworth stays. If they sign Moss Stallworth restructures or gets let go probably.

    I like having them both but I'm not sure we can afford both contracts.
  26. satz

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    stallworth took a market deal when he signed. he took less than deion branch a year later. Just because he played for less does not mean he will be told "sucker" by biolli and good luck.

    At 27 both wes and stallworth are going to be here with brady.With moss age he can be more of a marvin harrison with more skils then reggie wayne.
    remember wayne came on his own at 27 on his own after playing with manning for 4 yrs so give stallworth 1 more year.

    also from preseason c.j jones is going to be in the squad next year then chad jackson .jones was fast and also he has returned punts/kickoff to TD in college and actualy wll be a awesome addition to spl teams to spell wes welker.jones is thesame size as welker but is very fast.
  27. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let's say for the sake of argument, that Stallworth believes he should be paid the money he is due for the upcoming year.

    Let's say the front office tells him, well, here's the thing, Donte, when we figured on you being worth 30 Mill, with 18 M by the end of next year, well, we were thinking we didnt have Randy Moss. So if you don't want to re-do that deal, it breaks our hearts but we have to cut you.

    Of course it would be couched in different terms, but that's the bottom of it all - there might be a looming question of "Have you really shown you're worth that cash, to this team?"

    Well, I'm not in the FO, but I also don't think we pay the amount due NOW for a guy with under 50 catches, who we figure is being retained mainly as insurance. I know he's cheap for a #1, but not so much for a #2. And #2 for the Pats isn't all that. We have a slot guy putting up the #2 numbers.

    You really sure we insist on the deal as it stands for 5 years? Or is he maybe trade bait?

    PFnV
  28. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    All of that assumes Moss is signed, correct? Otherwise the negotations are VERY different.

    And I don't doubt Stallworth could be worth that contract on another team.

    At the time we signed him we didn't have Moss and I don't have a doubt he would have earned that salary now and moving forward. Double that production WITHOUT Moss on the team isn't a stretch of the imagination.

    I think the deal is structured so that we could trade him and not have an adverse cap hit, no? I think he might need to restructure slightly for another team though - they might not be keen on guaranteeing him $6 million or so next year and beyond.
  29. satz

    satz Rookie

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    joe the problem is we offerred a contract where a bar of performance was [only biolli knows] if met he gets the money and the contract he wanted if not we cut him. i do not think they will trade him trades are rare in NFL and also no other talent would ask for a prove it contract .He left money on the table in maimi to come to new england with a confidence that he can achieve his money.Now the question is it worth 2 million dollars to loose FA in the future never taking such a offer ?

    he wanted a contract and it was offerred so he is not going to turn around and say i believe i am worth more. it is funny how the fans prepective has changed with moss wanting to stay and in his goodness of heart will take a good deal but stallworth has become bad and thinks he is all that and bad for the team...so it fits the story line,
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007
  30. JoeSixPat

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    No - I think it's public knowledge when his next bonus kicks in after the season. Effectively he's on a one year deal with OUR option for next year and beyond.

    What I'm unclear on is whether those count as "likely to be earned" roster bonuses that impact our cap if we cut or trade him.

    I don't think they do but I could be wrong.

    All this is academic until we have Moss signed. Stallworth wouldn't be cut until then.
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