How much does this SB loss damage Peyton Manning's legacy?

[Deus Irae]

I'm sorry, I'm getting frustrated reading some of these threads...sure winning may have helped his legacy but losing didn't hurt it.

Why are we enfatuated with calling Manning a regular season quarterback. The guy has had fantastic regular seasons, but let's not forget that he DID win a Super Bowl. Not only that, he's now been to three!

I feel like it's the media's job to continuously look at a QBs career and for some reason try to downgrade him because "he didn't win one more." After all, Marino never won one and I bet he wishes SO SO badly he did. But instead, we look and say "oh, poor day, but he NEVER got it done." That is true, but for Peyton he does have one but we're still like "oh, but he doesn't have two." And even with Brady, some are like "oh, he's losing it b/c he doesn't have his fourth by now." C'mon, if Brady gets a fourth taht would be terrific but it shouldn't be expected, just like with Manning.

He is a great QB. That's the fact. Yes, his record in the playoffs isn't nearly as good as his regular season record, but neither is Brady's. It's a given fact that you play better teams and only one team can win. Once you lose, there is no chance at redemption like the regular season.

While I enjoyed the Manning beatdown the other night, I will in no way try to downgrade how great of a QB he has been and what he has meant to the league.

He's largely skated by when things have been tough for him because the media has been too busy ballwashing him to take a critical look at what's actually happened.

He's not the greatest QB of all time.
He's not the greatest regular season QB of all time.
He's not better than Tom Brady.

He's the second best QB of his era.
He may well be the worst 'big time' QB in NFL playoff history.
Without the Patriots defense getting worn down by illness/injury in the second half of the AFCCG (and a bad PI call), and Rex Grossman in the Sb, he'd be Dan Marino with a bigger forehead.





And he's a choking dog who's getting a fair amount of heat now, because he finally gagged in a way that was too big for even the media to cover over.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

He's largely skated by when things have been tough for him because the media has been too busy ballwashing him to take a critical look at what's actually happened.

He's not the greatest QB of all time.
He's not the greatest regular season QB of all time.
He's not better than Tom Brady.

He's the second best QB of his era.
He may well be the worst 'big time' QB in NFL playoff history.
Without the Patriots defense getting worn down by illness/injury in the second half of the AFCCG (and a bad PI call), and Rex Grossman in the Sb, he'd be Dan Marino with a bigger forehead.





And he's a choking dog who's getting a fair amount of heat now, because he finally gagged in a way that was too big for even the media to cover over.

This all this so much. He's essentially had Brett Favre's career but with far better weapons and a much better offensive line, and nobody calls Favre the best quarterback ever.

The entire argument for Manning as Greatest Quarterback is based on statistics, but not average year statistics (where he and Brady are nearly identical), but rather cumulative ones. If your argument is based solely on cumulative statistics, than that would mean that you would have to believe that Fran Tarkenton, Dan Marino and Brett Favre were all at one point the greatest quarterback of all time.

He is simply not better than Tom Brady, at all, and there's really no argument to be made that he is. Yet this argument gets made all the time, by people who are just spewing stupidity.

And that damn faceguarding penalty will never be ok by me. They called a penalty that was no longer a penalty! That was not pass interference and completely let the Colts back in to that game. Manning's entire postseason run during his winning the Super Bowl was based on him playing like trash and getting bailed out by luck, bad calls, Rex Grossman, and defensive backs falling down.

 

[Wheelman]

And he's a choking dog who's getting a fair amount of heat now, because he finally gagged in a way that was too big for even the media to cover over.

You're right here, but the media is still covering it up no matter how obvious it is...:bricks:

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

He's largely skated by when things have been tough for him because the media has been too busy ballwashing him to take a critical look at what's actually happened.

He's not the greatest QB of all time.
He's not the greatest regular season QB of all time.
He's not better than Tom Brady.

He's the second best QB of his era.
He may well be the worst 'big time' QB in NFL playoff history.
Without the Patriots defense getting worn down by illness/injury in the second half of the AFCCG (and a bad PI call), and Rex Grossman in the Sb, he'd be Dan Marino with a bigger forehead.





And he's a choking dog who's getting a fair amount of heat now, because he finally gagged in a way that was too big for even the media to cover over.

Brady goes from 0.770 to 0.696 and Manning goes from 0.696 to 0.478. So Brady goes from Brady to Manning while Manning goes from Manning to Schaub. Their individual stats are slightly more comparable, but Brady has a pretty clear edge there; which is pretty amazing considering that Manning has been on far more offensive power house teams.

The NFL doesn't award style points, but public opinion certainly does. Manning's team gave up in the Super Bowl... if that doesn't tarnish someones opinion of him... I don't even know.

 

[patsinthesnow]

It sucks how there is no way to prove this, but just picture Brady his whole career:

-in a dome
-in the AFC South
-Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark

Questions:

1. Career qbr over 105?
2. #1 seed every season?
3. Dynasty with the Colts?

I'm with Deus, Brady probably is the greatest regular season QB as well.

 

[Ivan]

I actually think that the way history is going to treat this season will benefit Brady. I think the narrative will be that Brady took a team that was decimated by injuries and completely reliant upon inexperienced players and led them to within a game of the Super Bowl, and that Manning took the "Greatest Offense of all Time" and season long Super Bowl favorite and FAILED SPECTACULARLY!


That may or may not be fair but i do think that is the way it will be remembered, much as the Patriots 18-1 season will always be remembered more for the loss than the accomplishments.

Don't believe me, ask Wes Welker?

 

[Ivan]

It sucks how there is no way to prove this, but just picture Brady his whole career:

-in a dome
-in the AFC South
-Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark

Questions:

1. Career qbr over 105?
2. #1 seed every season?
3. Dynasty with the Colts?

I'm with Deus, Brady probably is the greatest regular season QB as well.

Thanks a lot, now i am stuck in your parallel universe looking wistfully back at the Rohan Davey years.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

You're right here, but the media is still covering it up no matter how obvious it is...:bricks:

I don't know, I've seen him getting torched a lot. The Around the Horn guys went pretty hard after him, Deion and Mike Irvin dug in---especially Deion, saying "This is not good"---and Heath Evans, Shawne Merriman and Curtis Conway were on the NFL Network saying that this takes him out of the discussion. Evans even blamed Manning for the bad snap, which is clearly his fault as the entire o-line is moving at the same time.

Many of the writers have their agendas, and Manning will grant them any softball interview they ever want giving them his goober answers. But the analysts that played are pretty much universally savaging him.

He gave up in the first half of a game that was still winnable. He wanted no part of the Seattle defense. He was shutting his eyes and throwing up ducks to nobody. Everyone saw it happen.

This wasn't like the Elway teams where they got blown out by vastly superior teams after he had dragged them there in the first place. This wasn't Brady losing close games when he was getting tossed around like a rag doll and still had them in position to win late. This was Peyton rolling over and quitting very early in a game where the perception was they had the best offense of all time and a defense that could keep them in the game. The defense DID keep them in the game. Peyton threw them right out of it.

 

[BradyManny]

I haven't really been around much since the SB, so forgive me for not reading every post in this thread.

All I can say is, in a direct Manning to Brady comparison, last Sunday was evidence why some of us so comfortably fall on the Brady side of things. Brady's lost two Super Bowls, but he went down swinging. I don't care how much better Seattle is than New England, Brady would never lay an egg like that on the biggest stage. Outside of the 2009 WC game vs the Ravens, Brady just does not hand over big games the way Manning has proven perfectly capable of doing throughout his career.

I have so much more faith in Brady performing when it matters than Manning, and it's backed up by years of evidence. There's a huge faction of our nation's football fans that refuse to see it.

 

[Ivan]

I don't know, I've seen him getting torched a lot. The Around the Horn guys went pretty hard after him, Deion and Mike Irvin dug in---especially Deion, saying "This is not good"---and Heath Evans, Shawne Merriman and Curtis Conway were on the NFL Network saying that this takes him out of the discussion. Evans even blamed Manning for the bad snap, which is clearly his fault as the entire o-line is moving at the same time.

Many of the writers have their agendas, and Manning will grant them any softball interview they ever want giving them his goober answers. But the analysts that played are pretty much universally savaging him.

He gave up in the first half of a game that was still winnable. He wanted no part of the Seattle defense. He was shutting his eyes and throwing up ducks to nobody. Everyone saw it happen.

This wasn't like the Elway teams where they got blown out by vastly superior teams after he had dragged them there in the first place. This wasn't Brady losing close games when he was getting tossed around like a rag doll and still had them in position to win late. This was Peyton rolling over and quitting very early in a game where the perception was they had the best offense of all time and a defense that could keep them in the game. The defense DID keep them in the game. Peyton threw them right out of it.

Awwwww shucks.


I suppose if yer gonna put it that goll darned way then i can't really say much.

it's kinda emba

 

[patsderoer]

The defense DID keep them in the game. Peyton threw them right out of it.

No question about it. It was only a one-possesion game before PayATon threw those awfull 2 picks. First one, he forced a throw to JThomas, when he had Welker open underneath. Second one, he closed his eyes, and made a very bad throw. Awfull.

Worst choke job I ever saw.

 

[crew1954]

I think what the SB did was elevate Tony Dungy into the discussion of GOAT coach.

He actually won a Super Bowl WITH Peyton.

 

[Joker]

Being a die hard Pats fan and Peytie Pout hater I say....

You can't damage what you never had

Manling needs to quit football, hire a Hollywood agent and see if he can win the leading role in Master Of Disguise II...

 

[Ivan]

You know, somewhere deep in the bowels of New Jersey Mark Sanchez had to be watching that game, watching Peyton Manning and saying to himself "Greatest Ever?, I can do that..............."

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Awwwww shucks.


I suppose if yer gonna put it that goll darned way then i can't really say much.

it's kinda emba

Aww I mean I wouldn't call it embarrassing, sure I just gave one of the worst performances of my life in front of hundreds of millions of people but I mean we put a lot of hard work in, until the first snap and then I kinda just quit but I mean embarrassing? That's insulting. As insulting as calling us the best offense of all time.

I mean I set a record! Most completions in a Super Bowl! Be embarrassed by that! Stats and yards and touchdown passes, I have gotten a lot of em throwin them ducks. Shucks I mean I just wanna get a Bud Light in my mouth as soon as possible and eat me a better ingredients better pizza.

[yeah my schaudenfreude is running high, but man was that a great game to watch]

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Being a die hard Pats fan and Peytie Pout hater I say....

You can't damage what you never had

Manling needs to quit football, hire a Hollywood agent and see if he can win the leading role in Master Of Disguise II...

Joker you find the strangest things and post the strangest stuff and I love every minute of it you crazy lunatic.

 

[Ivan]

Tough Break for Peyton, he started the play-offs with his legacy under a cloud and ended it with a 2 hour Fox Special with Geraldo searching for it under Giants Stadium.

Who knows maybe Geraldo will get lucky and find Peyton's legacy and Jimmy Hoffa at the same time?

 

[Danger Zone]

You know, somewhere deep in the bowels of New Jersey Mark Sanchez had to be watching that game, watching Peyton Manning and saying to himself "Greatest Ever?, I can do that..............."

And then at the end if the game Sanchez had a bit of an epiphany and said to himself, "Hell, I've done all that... (and a butt-fumble too)"

 

[Ring 6]

Re: After last night...

Andy, you are acting as if people tally up the pieces and come to a rational conclusion based upon the facts, they don't, the GOAT debate like all "greatest ever" debates is about perception not some agreed upon statistical reality.

My assessment of Brady, Manning, Montana, others and the GOAT topic is not about what misperceptions people may have but about the reality.
I don't care if a lot of people thought Manning was going to win the SB and elevated him in their mind as if he did, because that's not reality.

The fact of the matter is that if you watched the hype leading up to that game there were many who were prepared to hand the GOAT title to Manning if they won that game based upon his passing numbers, MVP's, and the fact that it would have given him 2 Lombardi's with different coaches, which has never been done.

What some people say and what would be if a game yet to be played went a certain way are not relevant.
Manning's career is not different because you heard some people overrate him.

There are many who want manning to have that title and they were completely willing to tailor their arguments to fit that desire. What happened Sunday night cut the legs right out from under their arguments and they now have no way to make that argument.

Again, who cares.

A real argument could be made that Brady is the GOAT when you look at all the aspects of his career. Career winning %, wins, play-off wins, Lombardi's etc...., however the overall perception nationally at this point is that Montana is the GOAT because of his 4-0 in Super Bowls, and great performances in those games. even if Brady wins another Lombardi it will be difficult outside of Patriot Nation to convince people that Brady is the GOAT.

Once again, I'm not talking about what an uninformed person thinks.
Winning 4 SBs and making it to 2 others is better than winning 4 SBs and losing in an earlier round. That is simple a fact, and it is indisputable. I could care less about the opinion of someone who thinks it is a better accomplishment to lose a playoff game than to win one then lose the next.

Rational-No, Perception-yes. People will define it the way they want, and they will tailor their arguments to match their perceptions, and short of Brady winning 3 more Lombardi's it will be hard to convince many that he ultimately is the GOAT. If he gets 2 there are still many who will point to the 2 losses as proof that Montana was better, 3 and only the hard core haters will be left banging the drum for Montana.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my comments.

What is comical to me is that many of the Brady haters (my oldest brother for example) will claim Montana is the GOAT because of 4-0, yet still want to argue that Manning is better than Brady despite his play-off and SB record, they just turn to the passing numbers and MVP's and claim those trump Brady and that he is just a "game manager"

Well your brother is either playing with you or just doesn't understand the topic. Again, his opinion means nothing to me in assessing these 2 QBs.

 

[1960Pats]

Re: After last night...

Player - Reg% - Play% - SB - 1&D - 4QC - GWD
Brady - 77.5 - 69.2 - 3 - 2 - 3 - 6
Montana - 71.3 - 69.6 - 4 - 4 - 5 - 5
Staubach - 74.6 - 64.7 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2
Bradshaw - 67.7 - 73.7 - 3 - 3 - 4 - 4
Big Ben - 66.9 - 71.4 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 3
Unitas - 65.2 - 75 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2
Flacco - 64.6 - 69.2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1
Elway - 64.3 - 66.7 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 6
Starr - 62.3 - 90 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1
Manning - 69.6 - 47.8 - 1 - 8 - 1 - 1

All the numbers to the right of the Regular Season winning % are playoff numbers, SB wins, One % Dones, 4th Quarter comebacks and game winning drives. Feel free to fix any mistakes. I rushed it.