How Many Defensive Front Seven Positions?

[mgteich]

The usual answer is 15, which includes special teamers. I am fine with that number, although, one of the ST spots might be lost to a DB/STer like Cole or T Wilson.

DT (4)
Three seem to get almost all the reps (Wilfork, Love and Deadrick in 2012). Brace was the #4. This is a huge issue. As of now, Kelly has replaced Love, but we still need two players.

DE (4.5)
Last year we had 2 starters and 2 backups. All are back other than Scott who has been replaced by Benard. Cunningham (.5) also played some DE.

LB (5.5)
Last year, we had our 3 starters, Cunningham (.5) and 2-3 special teamers. Ninkovich also played LB as needed. Thankfully this year, we added a 4th LB in Collins and a STer who may be useful as a position player (Fletcher).

Developmental Player (1)
We could keep Buchanan or Bequette.

QUESTIONS (keep 2 of Cunninhgam, Francis and Bequette)
From where I sit,
1) Keeping Cunningham is a good idea. He can play LB, DE or even DT in an emergency.
2) I think that Francis is a much more valuable prospect that Bequette.
3) The need is at DT. We have Forston, Vellano and Vallone. We need better.

 

[supafly]

3) The need is at DT. We have Forston, Vellano and Vallone. We need better.

This has been my biggest gripe, even with all of the uncertainty surrounding the WR's this offseason.

The names listed make me cringe just thinking about it. Hopefully it is addressed very soon.

 

[patsfan13]

I would go with Cunningham & Francis also, if/when Armistead become available He would replace Cunningham/Forston, depending on how each played.

 

[Brady6]

The usual answer is 15, which includes special teamers. I am fine with that number, although, one of the ST spots might be lost to a DB/STer like Cole or T Wilson.

DT (4)
Three seem to get almost all the reps (Wilfork, Love and Deadrick in 2012). Brace was the #4. This is a huge issue. As of now, Kelly has replaced Love, but we still need two players.

DE (4.5)
Last year we had 2 starters and 2 backups. All are back other than Scott who has been replaced by Benard. Cunningham (.5) also played some DE.

LB (5.5)
Last year, we had our 3 starters, Cunningham (.5) and 2-3 special teamers. Ninkovich also played LB as needed. Thankfully this year, we added a 4th LB in Collins and a STer who may be useful as a position player (Fletcher).

Developmental Player (1)
We could keep Buchanan or Bequette.

QUESTIONS (keep 2 of Cunninhgam, Francis and Bequette)
From where I sit,
1) Keeping Cunningham is a good idea. He can play LB, DE or even DT in an emergency.
2) I think that Francis is a much more valuable prospect that Bequette.
3) The need is at DT. We have Forston, Vellano and Vallone. We need better.

These are the players I have selected for my mock front seven, along with how I view each players fit (starters are in bold font).

DE/OLB Ninkovich
3Tech Kelly
1Tech Wilfork
DE Jones
OLB/ILB Mayo
ILB Spikes
OLB Hightower

DE/DT Benard
DE/DT Cunningham
DE/DT Francis
DE/OLB Collins
DE/OLB Buchanan
DT/NT Fortson
OLB/ILB Fletcher
ILB Beauharnais

 

[Ozymandias]

DE/OLB Ninkovich
3Tech Kelly
1Tech Wilfork
DE Jones
OLB/ILB Mayo
ILB Spikes
OLB Hightower

DE/DT Benard
DE/DT Cunningham
DE/DT Francis
DE/OLB Collins
DE/OLB Buchanan
DT/NT Fortson
OLB/ILB Fletcher
ILB Beauharnais

This looks good, Brady6.

What do you think about adding another DT from someone else's cuts to replace Cunningham if he's still not all the way back to form?

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: How Many Defensive Front Seven Positions?

This looks good, Brady6.

What do you think about adding another DT from someone else's cuts to replace Cunningham if he's still not all the way back to form?

I think it would be a very good idea to add a player at DT.

 

[mgteich]

You have been consistent, favoring UDFA's for the roster.

I think that 2 of your players are better choices as Practice Squad players (Buchanan and Beuaharnais). I would expect neither of them to get any reps on defense. While I would put Forston on the 53, I would also put Vellano on the 53. The reality is that I want both on the Practice Squad and their spots taken by free agents.

With regard to Beauharnais, we simply have no use for a 6th positional linebacker. The #5 LB get almost no reps. We have Fletcher, Collins AND Ninkovich as backups. And that doesn't even count Cunningham. BTW, check out 2012. Who did we have in addition to the starters, Ninkovich and Cunningham who played any significant reps at LB? We've added Collins and Fletcher. That's plenty.

IMHO, To make the team, Berharnias must be a better special teamer than Rivera and Tarpinian and Ebner and Koutouvides and free agents that are out there.

IMHO, the bottom line is that there is much better uses for these three roster spots than using them for developmental players who will never play.

These are the players I have selected for my mock front seven, along with how I view each players fit (starters are in bold font).

DE/OLB Ninkovich
3Tech Kelly
1Tech Wilfork
DE Jones
OLB/ILB Mayo
ILB Spikes
OLB Hightower

DE/DT Benard
DE/DT Cunningham
DE/DT Francis
DE/OLB Collins
DE/OLB Buchanan
DT/NT Fortson
OLB/ILB Fletcher
ILB Beauharnais

 

[mgteich]

We need TWO DT's.

I think it would be a very good idea to add a player at DT.

 

[Oswlek]

The usual answer is 15, which includes special teamers. I am fine with that number, although, one of the ST spots might be lost to a DB/STer like Cole or T Wilson.

DT (4)
Three seem to get almost all the reps (Wilfork, Love and Deadrick in 2012). Brace was the #4. This is a huge issue. As of now, Kelly has replaced Love, but we still need two players.

DE (4.5)
Last year we had 2 starters and 2 backups. All are back other than Scott who has been replaced by Benard. Cunningham (.5) also played some DE.

LB (5.5)
Last year, we had our 3 starters, Cunningham (.5) and 2-3 special teamers. Ninkovich also played LB as needed. Thankfully this year, we added a 4th LB in Collins and a STer who may be useful as a position player (Fletcher).

Developmental Player (1)
We could keep Buchanan or Bequette.

QUESTIONS (keep 2 of Cunninhgam, Francis and Bequette)
From where I sit,
1) Keeping Cunningham is a good idea. He can play LB, DE or even DT in an emergency.
2) I think that Francis is a much more valuable prospect that Bequette.
3) The need is at DT. We have Forston, Vellano and Vallone. We need better.

I was driving the "Cunningham won't make the roster" bus, but after seeing the alternatives, that puppy ran out of gas quick. I think he sticks, or at the very worst is given a "stay close to the phone" mandate.

IMO, Bequette has played himself not only off the roster, but off practice squad consideration as well. Complete disaster every time I set eyes on him.

Fletcher is a better player than you indicate, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him on the field over Collins in the first month.

 

[Oswlek]

These are the players I have selected for my mock front seven, along with how I view each players fit (starters are in bold font).

DE/OLB Ninkovich
3Tech Kelly
1Tech Wilfork
DE Jones
OLB/ILB Mayo
ILB Spikes
OLB Hightower

DE/DT Benard
DE/DT Cunningham
DE/DT Francis
DE/OLB Collins
DE/OLB Buchanan
DT/NT Fortson
OLB/ILB Fletcher
ILB Beauharnais

That might fly for a game or two, but you really need to squeeze another pure DT on the roster. None of the flex guys you list can cut it if there is an injury, and I really like to see the starters get some rest every now and again.

 

[Brady6]

You have been consistent, favoring UDFA's for the roster.

I think that 2 of your players are better choices as Practice Squad players (Buchanan and Beuaharnais). I would expect neither of them to get any reps on defense. While I would put Forston on the 53, I would also put Vellano on the 53. The reality is that I want both on the Practice Squad and their spots taken by free agents.

With regard to Beauharnais, we simply have no use for a 6th positional linebacker. The #5 LB get almost no reps. We have Fletcher, Collins AND Ninkovich as backups. And that doesn't even count Cunningham. BTW, check out 2012. Who did we have in addition to the starters, Ninkovich and Cunningham who played any significant reps at LB? We've added Collins and Fletcher. That's plenty.

IMHO, To make the team, Berharnias must be a better special teamer than Rivera and Tarpinian and Ebner and Koutouvides and free agents that are out there.

IMHO, the bottom line is that there is much better uses for these three roster spots than using them for developmental players who will never play.

I tried to structure my front seven similar to the structure that we ended 2012

These players remain:

Justin Francis
Marcus Forston
Chandler Jones
Rob Ninkovich
Vince Wilfork
Dont'a Hightower
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Spikes
Jake Bequette (Left off my mock roster)

These players left and are replaced with:

Brandon Deaderick/Marcus Benard
Kyle Love/Tommy Kelly
Trevor Scott/Michael Buchanan
Mike Rivera /Steve Beauharnais
Tracy White/Jamie Collins
Niko Koutouvides/Dane Fletcher

So if we release Bequette as I believe we should that leaves us with 1 open spot for a DT from another team to step in, I do not believe we need more than 1 additional, last season we ran with 4 on the roster and 3 active most games, Belichick appears to be committed to using 3 players in the 260-280 pound range 50% of the snaps, and in a NFL that relies heavily on the pass I tend to agree with his new philosophy.

As far as my commitment to the UDFA’s it has more to do with the alternatives than my liking them, if someone comes on the market I would be very open to upgrading the positions, I do feel Buchanan is a player worth keeping however, he is my binkie.

 

[Oswlek]

I do feel Buchanan is a player worth keeping however, he is my binkie.

I'm all for keeping a developmental player, but Buchanan has shown me nothing so far. His appeal has a lot more to do with the rep he arrived with than what has happened on the field.

 

[Brady6]

I'm all for keeping a developmental player, but Buchanan has shown me nothing so far. His appeal has a lot more to do with the rep he arrived with than what has happened on the field.

I agree with you that he has been less than impressive thus far, but this is Buchanan’s snaps mostly consist of plays where we are aligned in this formation –

RDE – Francis/Bequette
1Tech NT – Fortson
3Tech DT – Benard
LDE – Buchanan

I have been completely unimpressed with Benard at the 3Tech and that is the player that would normally consume the inside player and allow a 1on1 matchup for the Buchanan against the RT, if you look at the game film you will see the LG is able to play Fortson 1on1 most snaps, Benard has been chipped into the OC, leaving Buchanan to face off against the RT with help from the RG, add to that the lack of pressure from the RE position especially with Bequette on the field and it not really the optimal situation for Buchanan, he is drawing the most attention of any pass rusher on most of his snaps. He is 2 tackles behind the Patriots preseason leader in tackles, granted its Tarpinian with 9

 

[mgteich]

It is a good idea to compare with 2012. As is always the case at the end of the season, we had an extra STer or two.

THE RETURNERS (10)
Justin Francis
Marcus Forston (we all would rather him be upgraded and go to the PS)
Chandler Jones
Rob Ninkovich
Vince Wilfork
Dont'a Hightower
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Spikes
Jermaine Cunningham (not in your post)
Mike Rivera

REPLACEMENTS (3)
Brandon Deaderick/Vellano or a free agent
Kyle Love/Tommy Kelly
Trevor Scott/Benard (and more reps for Francis)

POSITION PLAYERS INSTEAD OF SPECIAL TEAMERS (2)
Tracy White/Jamie Collins
Niko Koutouvides/Dane Fletcher
======

Mike Rivera /Mike Rivera (If 3 ST positions are going to reduced to 1, then it should be with the best special teamer.

I tried to structure my front seven similar to the structure that we ended 2012

These players remain:

Justin Francis
Marcus Forston
Chandler Jones
Rob Ninkovich
Vince Wilfork
Dont'a Hightower
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Spikes
Jake Bequette (Left off my mock roster)

These players left and are replaced with:

Brandon Deaderick/Marcus Benard
Kyle Love/Tommy Kelly
Trevor Scott/Michael Buchanan
Mike Rivera /Steve Beauharnais
Tracy White/Jamie Collins
Niko Koutouvides/Dane Fletcher

So if we release Bequette as I believe we should that leaves us with 1 open spot for a DT from another team to step in, I do not believe we need more than 1 additional, last season we ran with 4 on the roster and 3 active most games, Belichick appears to be committed to using 3 players in the 260-280 pound range 50% of the snaps, and in a NFL that relies heavily on the pass I tend to agree with his new philosophy.

As far as my commitment to the UDFA’s it has more to do with the alternatives than my liking them, if someone comes on the market I would be very open to upgrading the positions, I do feel Buchanan is a player worth keeping however, he is my binkie.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: How Many Defensive Front Seven Positions?

It is a good idea to compare with 2012. As is always the case at the end of the season, we had an extra STer or two.

THE RETURNERS (10)
Justin Francis
Marcus Forston (we all would rather him be upgraded and go to the PS)
Chandler Jones
Rob Ninkovich
Vince Wilfork
Dont'a Hightower
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Spikes
Jermaine Cunningham (not in your post)
Mike Rivera

REPLACEMENTS (3)
Brandon Deaderick/Vellano or a free agent
Kyle Love/Tommy Kelly
Trevor Scott/Benard (and more reps for Francis)

POSITION PLAYERS INSTEAD OF SPECIAL TEAMERS (2)
Tracy White/Jamie Collins
Niko Koutouvides/Dane Fletcher
======

Mike Rivera /Mike Rivera (If 3 ST positions are going to reduced to 1, then it should be with the best special teamer.

I think one thing to keep in mind is we ended the year with just 52 players.

 

[mgteich]

fair enough

I think that we only need 15 in the front seven. Do you think that we need more?

I think one thing to keep in mind is we ended the year with just 52 players.

 

[mgteich]

I think that we should understand that lots of players were used at DT. These were open roster spots, and open roles to fill. All we had (and have) are UDFA's. Belichick values position flexibility, so sure, he'd LIKE for Francis and Benard to be able to competent backup DT's. But that is not their positions; they are DE's or even OLB/DE's.

I agree with you that he has been less than impressive thus far, but this is Buchanan’s snaps mostly consist of plays where we are aligned in this formation –

RDE – Francis/Bequette
1Tech NT – Fortson
3Tech DT – Benard
LDE – Buchanan

I have been completely unimpressed with Benard at the 3Tech and that is the player that would normally consume the inside player and allow a 1on1 matchup for the Buchanan against the RT, if you look at the game film you will see the LG is able to play Fortson 1on1 most snaps, Benard has been chipped into the OC, leaving Buchanan to face off against the RT with help from the RG, add to that the lack of pressure from the RE position especially with Bequette on the field and it not really the optimal situation for Buchanan, he is drawing the most attention of any pass rusher on most of his snaps. He is 2 tackles behind the Patriots preseason leader in tackles, granted its Tarpinian with 9

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: How Many Defensive Front Seven Positions?

fair enough

I think that we only need 15 in the front seven. Do you think that we need more?

I'm not sure honestly I'd prefer not to because I'd rather have a 5th RB, or 6th CB, last season we used a spot on Bequette which essentially added no value at all, so I'd prefer to have someone who can at least contribute on ST.

If Armstead was healthy and contributing I'd be much more comfortable letting a Cunningham or even a Francis walk, but I'm not sold on Bernard or Fortson.