How did they do? [NE free agents that signed elsewhere in 2015]

[RobertWeathers]

Last year a lot of us did some freaking out. You cant let this guy go!

You cant let that guy go

OMFG YOU CANT LET BOTH THOSE GUYS GO! SKY IS FALLLLLING

But its been another year, the patriots once again were on the doorstop of the superbowl,

So how did Those guys we let walk away do?

Big Vince:

16 games played 22 tackles, zero sacks

Right call to let him walk? Yes.

Darell Mevis

14 games played 39 tackles 9 passes knocked away, 5 ints

Right call to let him walk? at the contract he ended up signing for Yes. but can you imagine revis + butler as teh starting duo*swoon*

Brandon Browner:

Lol. Set the record for most penalties by a defensive player.

76 tackles, 10 pass defense 1 int.

Right call to let him walk? Yes.

Kyle Arrington:

28 tackles 3 pass defense, no ints


Right call to let him walk? hard to say

Stevan Ridley

8 games played averaging 2.5 yards per carry

Right call to let him walk? Yes.

Shane Vereen.

16 gp, 260 yards on the ground, 500 through the air 300+ kick return yards.


Right call to let him walk? No. Vereen had a solid year, and our RB depth could have really used him

Your argument is confusing.

Are you saying it was right/wrong for the team to keep the player because of their 2015 performance or their 2015 salary?

If it's based on performance and their salary was 2014 levels, I would have kept, Ayers, Vereen, Revis and maybe even Ridley as I'm not sure he is worse than SJax.

Coleman and Arrington are about the same.

I actually think Browner was overrated last year so I have no issue with him gone.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm missing something here. When did Vereen ever become tied to Lewis? He was replaced by White. Lewis was the later addition who became the team's surprise RB, completely supplanting White and largely supplanting Blount.

 

[JMC00]

White is just as good if not better than Vereen in my opinion. Definitely the right call, Giants paid way too much for him. Shouldn't have gotten more than 3 at most, probably closer to 2.5.

Yep. In 8 games White pretty much equaled Vereen's each of Vereen's last two years with the Pats

 

[JMC00]

this is all hindsight based on the season, people saying they would rather have lewis over vereen apparently missed the part where lewis missed half the season when we needed him most. Saying you would rather have half a season(the first half) of lewis over a full season of vereen is silly.

Vereen was a proven commidity, who while not a 100% always game breaker, played HUGE in the biggest games of the year(playoffs, superbowl) Lewis flashed some greatness, but like others have mentioned, was injury prone.

It's a Promise vs Results debate. Would you like a 50% chance of a 1500 all purpose yards player, or the 100% chance of a 800-1000 all purpose yards? Risk vs reward.

Ultimately, While i think lewis has the better ceiling, Vereen is the guy that can go the distance.

Don't act like Vereen is Mr. durable. Or did you forget

- Missed half a year in '13 because of an injury

-Injured his foot in preseason and missed the first 3-4 games in '12

-Injured his hamstring and missed the final 3 weeks of preseason and the first few games of the season and then injured his hamstring again in Week 13 in '11

 

[chasa]

Don't act like Vereen is Mr. durable. Or did you forget

- Missed half a year in '13 because of an injury

-Injured his foot in preseason and missed the first 3-4 games in '12

-Injured his hamstring and missed the final 3 weeks of preseason and the first few games of the season and then injured his hamstring again in Week 13 in '11

Shane vereen
2014 16 games played 800+ total yards
2015 16 games played 700+ total yards

Dion lewis

2014 zero games played Zero yards
2015 7 games played 600+ yards.

Over two most recent years shane vereen has played every game, dion lewis hasn't even played 25%

Dion lewis, if healthy, is the better player.

The issue is hes NEVER been healthy for even since 2011, half a season here, half a season there, a lost season sandwiched inbetween.

Shane vereen has put back to back solid, injury free(as injury free as a football player can be) seasons together. Lewis has not.

They both came into the league in 2011,

Vereen has 58 games played
Lewis has 31

Vereen has a total of 2700 total yards
Lewis has 800

Lewis could be an all pro caliber player. But he's ALWAYS hurt. Every SINGLE season.

this isnt about what ifs. This is about actual information. Vereen is the SAFER bet, and for that I think letting him walk was a bad call. that being said, imagine having vereen AND lewis on the field at the same time. one split out, one behind brady. or both in the backfield, dual screen threats with Jules and gronk running up either seam. *changes underpants*

 

[Deus Irae]

Shane vereen
2014 16 games played 800+ total yards
2015 16 games played 700+ total yards

Dion lewis

2014 zero games played Zero yards
2015 7 games played 600+ yards.

Over two most recent years shane vereen has played every game, dion lewis hasn't even played 25%

Dion lewis, if healthy, is the better player.

The issue is hes NEVER been healthy for even since 2011, half a season here, half a season there, a lost season sandwiched inbetween.

Shane vereen has put back to back solid, injury free(as injury free as a football player can be) seasons together. Lewis has not.

They both came into the league in 2011,

Vereen has 58 games played
Lewis has 31

Vereen has a total of 2700 total yards
Lewis has 800

Lewis could be an all pro caliber player. But he's ALWAYS hurt. Every SINGLE season.

this isnt about what ifs. This is about actual information. Vereen is the SAFER bet, and for that I think letting him walk was a bad call. that being said, imagine having vereen AND lewis on the field at the same time. one split out, one behind brady. or both in the backfield, dual screen threats with Jules and gronk running up either seam. *changes underpants*

Nah..... That's about you cherry picking the data.

Prior to the two years you focused on, Vereen played/was active in 5, 13 and 8 games, while Lewis played/was active in 15 games as s rookie.

 

[supafly]

Not meaning to come off as arrogant, but there was almost zero chance of us keeping Shane Vereen in free agency, and that was pretty obvious to many here.

 

[anditsgood]

1. Wilfork as a rotational guy would have been fine
2. Revis paired with Butler would have been great, would likely have resulted in at least 1 more win, and might have been the difference between SB repeats and an AFCCG defeat
   
3. Butler without Revis was never going to be a good idea
4. Ridley coming off of that injury was essentially irrelevant
5. Vereen, while a quality enough player, was never going to be worth the cash, was overrated here, and was no great loss

Im not so sold on #3, the loss was on the oline and snap count

 

[goheels22002]

Lets not exaggerate. BB overpays too.

In the last 8 years or so that I can recall:

Danny Amendola - 5yr $31m
Adalius Thomas - 5yr $35m
Marcus Cannon - 2yr $9m
Kyle Arrington - 4yr $16m
Fred Taylor - 2yr $5m
Nick Kaczur - 4yr $16m
Ryan Wendell - 2yr $8m
Shawn Springs - 3yr $10.5m
James Sanders - 3yr $9m
Leigh Bodden - 4yr $22m
Scott Chandler - 2yr $5.3m

and tons and tons more.

I disagree on Amendola.

In 2015, Rob Gronkowski had 1,176 yards on 72 receptions in 15 games. Amendola had 1,143 total yards from all sources is comparable, and Gronk's 72 catches to Amendola's 65 catches is a difference of .5 per game.

Amendola has proven to be a most versatile player on offense and special teams, and one of the toughest players on the team. If you want to knock him for his decreased production while playing with a serious groin injury in 2014, have at it. He outproduced Edelman in 2015.

In 2015, Amendola had a combined 1,143 yards of offense in 14 games.

448 kick/punt return yards
648 receiving yards on 65 completions - 10 yds/reception
11 rushing yards
3 TDs
1 pass completions for 36 yards

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/11674/danny-amendola

Amendola was key to winning the Super Bowl in the playoffs producing a TD reception in the Super Bowl to put the Pats in position for the winning TD drive, and he caught the Edelman TD pass to tie the Ravens in perhaps the #2 highlight of the season behind Butler's interception. Amendola is tough and clutch.

 

[Deus Irae]

Im not so sold on #3, the loss was on the oline and snap count

You shouldn't be sold on #3. I typed the wrong name in. Entirely my fault. Remove Butler, and replace with Browner, and you have what #3 was SUPPOSED to read.

My apologies. That's a huge difference.


But you're high as a kite if you don't get that the loss was on a missed PAT that led to a missed 2 point conversion. That's not even debatable. Now, speculating that they might have lost anyway, because of the OL and snap count, is a different issue.

 

[goheels22002]

How can you not be sold on #3? Because I typed the wrong name in, that's how. Entirely my fault. Remove Butler, and replace with Browner, and you have what #3 was SUPPOSED to read.

My apologies. That's a huge difference.


But you're high as a kite if you don't get that the loss was on a missed PAT that led to a missed 2 point conversion. That's not even debatable. Now, speculating that they might have lost anyway, because of the OL and snap count, is a different issue.

I'm glad you fixed that. I was going to jump on the question of whether the Patriots found a diamond in the rough in Butler, who proved to be solid #1 corner in 2015.

Letting Browner hit the market was a sound decision for both parties last February, and clearly a good move today.

The Revis decision boiled down to cap space. Revis chose to be a mercenary. If he'd decided to work with the Patriots to stay, my guess is that they would have won one or two more games, had the home field and it may have turned out differently. He would have made far less money, but he'd probably be preparing for his second Super Bowl right now.

The missed extra point put the Pats behind the 8 ball in the AFCC, but I believe Matt Light's appraisal that the OL was undermanned, and improperly prepared to deal with a road environment in the playoffs which led to Brady spending the afternoon on his back or running for his life.

 

[Deus Irae]

The missed extra point put the Pats behind the 8 ball in the AFCC, but I believe Matt Light's appraisal that the OL was undermanned, and improperly prepared to deal with a road environment in the playoffs which led to Brady spending the afternoon on his back or running for his life.

I'm not even delving into Light's comments with my post. No offense to Matt, but the most basic take is still the apt one. The Patriots lost because they scored 2 fewer points than the Broncos. They left 3 points on the field, but the 2nd and 3rd followed the 1st, and would not have been attempted in that manner had the first lost point not been lost. Despite all else that happened in the game, if Gost just hits his XPs, the Patriots are tied with the Broncos, and we've got overtime. What would have happened then is something we'll never know.

Yeah, there were all sorts of issues in the game, and we can start with the very first one of "What the hell was Belichick drinking when he made the decision to receive the ball to start the game?", but the basic, direct cause of the loss is the missed 2pt attempt, and the team only had to go for 2 because of Gost's earlier miss.

 

[eom]

As always Belichick lets them go a year too early rather than a year too late. This strategy has led to incredible success so sometimes we have to let our binkies go. I was sad to see Vereen go but he wasn't worth what the Giants paid.

People love to trash Belichick the GM but sometimes I wonder what he is better at, GM or Coach, because IMO he is a genius at both. He never overpays.

I think ppl get a little nutty with the contracts + what's value, overpaid, etc
guy's obviously awesome at team building, and obviously nobody has a crystal ball to see how things work out 3 yrs from now

they got amendola to take that pay cut cuz he was a #3, but at the time they signed him initially he was signed as our possible #1, with a lot of uncertainty at the position, at least from the fan side of it.
whenever you sign a guy off the market as opposed to an inhouse extension you're always going to end up paying a bit of a premium.

it's easy to nitpick 100s of deals, but overall it's hard to argue with the results.

 

[Deus Irae]

it's easy to nitpick 100s of deals, but overall it's hard to argue with the results.

It depends upon your POV regarding the results. If you're "Just happy to be there" or "You can't win every time", everything is awesome. If, on the other hand, you're "Pissed that Brady's years are getting wasted", the results can easily be argued.

And both positions have valid points.

 

[anditsgood]

You shouldn't be sold on #3. I typed the wrong name in. Entirely my fault. Remove Butler, and replace with Browner, and you have what #3 was SUPPOSED to read.

My apologies. That's a huge difference.


But you're high as a kite if you don't get that the loss was on a missed PAT that led to a missed 2 point conversion. That's not even debatable. Now, speculating that they might have lost anyway, because of the OL and snap count, is a different issue.

I must be high then, because if Bill would have kicked the field goal on the first try, we win by one

could have, should have, etc
to put the blame on one thing and ignore all else that failed, and what could have been, is up for debate. Now if that extra point came as time expired, i would 1000000% agree but since it happened at the beginning of game......

 

[Deus Irae]

I must be high then, because if Bill would have kicked the field goal on the first try, we win by one

That's simply not true. If the field goal, everything changes and becomes speculative. Unlike changing the missed XP to a made XP, kicking the field goal changes on field position, has scoring ramifications prior to the 2 point conversion issue, and leads to different strategies and playcalling.

 

[Joey007]

I'm glad you fixed that. I was going to jump on the question of whether the Patriots found a diamond in the rough in Butler, who proved to be solid #1 corner in 2015.

Letting Browner hit the market was a sound decision for both parties last February, and clearly a good move today.

The Revis decision boiled down to cap space. Revis chose to be a mercenary. If he'd decided to work with the Patriots to stay, my guess is that they would have won one or two more games, had the home field and it may have turned out differently. He would have made far less money, but he'd probably be preparing for his second Super Bowl right now.

Our defense would be unstoppable with Butler and Revis.

Revis got his ring though, and decided he was going to play for the money here on out.

 

[anditsgood]

That's simply not true. If the field goal, everything changes and becomes speculative. Unlike changing the missed XP to a made XP, kicking the field goal changes on field position, has scoring ramifications prior to the 2 point conversion issue, and leads to different strategies and playcalling.

exactly, any one thing done differently, changes everything and everything becomes speculative

I just wont blame the loss on the XP miss

 

[Deus Irae]

exactly, any one thing done differently, changes everything and everything becomes speculative

I just wont blame the loss on the XP miss

The XP miss doesn't change anything on the field, and clearly cost the team the game, in concert with the failed 2 point conversion. You blaming it, or refusing to blame it, is meaningless. The math is the math.

 

[patfanken]

How did they do?

Last year a lot of us did some freaking out. You cant let this guy go!

You cant let that guy go

OMFG YOU CANT LET BOTH THOSE GUYS GO! SKY IS FALLLLLING

But its been another year, the patriots once again were on the doorstop of the superbowl,

So how did Those guys we let walk away do?

Big Vince:

16 games played 22 tackles, zero sacks

Right call to let him walk? Yes.

Darell Mevis

14 games played 39 tackles 9 passes knocked away, 5 ints

Right call to let him walk? at the contract he ended up signing for Yes. but can you imagine revis + butler as teh starting duo*swoon*

Brandon Browner:

Lol. Set the record for most penalties by a defensive player.

76 tackles, 10 pass defense 1 int.

Right call to let him walk? Yes.

Kyle Arrington:

28 tackles 3 pass defense, no ints


Right call to let him walk? hard to say

Stevan Ridley

8 games played averaging 2.5 yards per carry

Right call to let him walk? Yes.

Shane Vereen.

16 gp, 260 yards on the ground, 500 through the air 300+ kick return yards.


Right call to let him walk? No. Vereen had a solid year, and our RB depth could have really used him

Nice thread and equally good responses. I feel I had to join in.

1/ I think most of us agree that we did the right thing with Vince. Not only was Vince going to be a cap burden, his best use, at this point of his career was as a 2 game NT, which is NOT the base defense we run anymore. He was a better player for the Texans than he would have been with the Pats. The Texans paid the premium for him more for what they got from a leadership standpoint than as a player.

2. A Revis /Butler CB combo would have been nice, but I doubt it would have made much of a difference to the overall defense. It would have been a defense without Sheard and others that helped make our CB's. Don't forget that as it was, the Pats had to play very close to the cap most of the season. Adding Revis' contract to mix would have tipped us over into a cap imbalance. Not only only for 2015, but even worse as the contract runs on.

It would be hypocritical to say I didn't want Revis back. But with the benefit of perfect 20-20 hindsight, watching Revis slip just a bet, and Butler blossom into a pro bowl CB and have Ryan turn into a solid #2. the Pats lucked into what will be the best situation for them long term. Now the chances of keeping Jones, Hightower, and Collins become even better. Thank you NYJ's

3. We missed Browner's physicality, but between the penalties and his physical limitations, Ryan was an upgrade. Again an unexpected one, but one nonetheless. Browner without Revis was never a possibility, again we lucked out cap-wise.

4. Arrington - Kyle was always a great role player for the Pats. Another UDFA who become a solid contributor for the Pats. But BB told us all we needed to know in the Do Your Job clip. He was inconsistent. He could give you a great game like he did in the AFCCG, and then throw you a stinker in the SB and have to be benched. BB decided he wanted to see if he could upgrade him. Brown was supposed be that man. He, unfortunately wound up on IR, and another UDFA turned out to be another fantastic find. (Coleman)

I still would like to see us add a big physical CB this off season, but so would 32 other teams.

5. Ridley had a very uneventful season with the Jets coming off the ACL surgery. The fact it took him a long time to get of the field for the Jets, cements the fact BB did the right thing by letting him go. I wouldn't hate it if he came back now that he's healthy. He's the kind of tough runner who can give the Pats what they need in their run game.

6. .....and then there is the Vareen question. I have to side with the those who think it was DEFINITELY the right decision, once the Market established his price. Now every one knows I am definitely not a James White fan, for a lot of reasons, but even HE had over 400 yds receiving in limited action after Lewis was hurt.

Now OTG and chasa are correct in saying NONE of us had a clue Lewis was going to turn out to be the kind of impact player he was for the first third of the season. But that doesn't mean that BB and his staff didn't have that clue. Wasn't Brady quoted as saying before the regular season started that Lewis was going to be a fan favorite or something like that.

I believe that they liked Cadet more than White as evidenced that even hurt they kept him on the roster early in the season hoping he would get healthy.

Now this isn't to say Shane Vareen isn't an excellent 3rd down back, but not a $5MM one....and not one I'd rather have than a healthy Lewis

7. Some people tried to make the case for keep Ayers over Freeney, but they play completely different positions.