How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[Wozzy]

Actually no it doesn’t. As I explain below.


If a running back is a 4th down or goal line specialist and he is very good at that job, does he still suck because his yardage and yards per carry won’t be high? Someone who looks at box scores will think so. DVOA solves that problem.

DVOA is for people who need football explained to them, who are easily swayed by fake science and who can’t read simple statistics found in the box score.

 

[sb1]

How? I said Brady had better teams around him… and I haven’t altered or changed that view at all.

Your “view”- that’s right. Not facts. I disagree with that view.

Again… stop dancing. I haven’t deviated at all in what I’m saying.

Clearly.

I hate that my team’s HC benched his best tackling corner in the biggest game of the season for no apparent reason and later decided to hire two buffoons in over their heads to run his offense and predictably destroyed his young QB’s development. That’s not hating on the man that’s saying he did a terrible job in recent years. And I don’t need to elaborate on what he’s done as Gm.

Simple stats are facts. You hate facts because they make your take look stupid… because it is.

Points per game shows competence over a full season. You suggesting a team can give up among the fewest points in the entire NFL and simultaneously be “bad” is peak stupidity.

The 2021 Patriots gave up the 2nd fewest points in the league. How did they do in that wild card game in Buffalo, the game in Indianapolis and the 2nd Bills and Dolphins games or really any half decent offense they faced? Was that a good team? Or how about the 2023 Pats giving up 10 points or less in 3 straight games. Must have been an amazing team. But PpG!!!

 

[sb1]

DVOA is for people who need football explained to them, who are easily swayed by fake science and who can’t read simple statistics found in the box score.

It’s for fans informed enough to understand that simple stats don’t always tell the right story.

 

[Wozzy]

Your “view”- that’s right. Not facts. I disagree with that view.

Points scored or allowed is a fact.

Starting field position, punt stats and field goal accuracy are facts. They can quantify how good your special teams was.

Sack percentage and rushing stats can quantify how good an offensive line was… facts.

You don’t like facts because they prove you wrong.

The 2021 Patriots gave up the 2nd fewest points in the league. How did they do in that wild card game in Buffalo, the game in Indianapolis and the 2nd Bills and Dolphins games or really any half decent offense they faced? Was that a good team? But PpG!!!

One game against the AFC favorite where Mac threw two interceptions is an indicator of nothing.

Again, you don’t understand how averages work, you don’t understand basic fundamental football.

 

[Wozzy]

It’s for fans informed enough to understand that simple stats don’t always tell the right story.

It’s subjective garbage, pseudo science that introduces human bias and error into something that can easily be explained by basic statistics. It’s junk science.

 

[h0c2000]

It’s for fans informed enough to understand that simple stats don’t always tell the right story.

Just accept the fact that Brady's a system quarterback who could only have success in New England.

 

[Wozzy]

Just accept the fact that Brady's a system quarterback who could only have success in New England.

Just accept that the 2020 Buc’s defense gave up the 6th fewest points and 6th fewest yards per drive in the NFL. They forced the 5th most turnovers, ranked #1 in run defense in yards, TD’s and YPA allowed. They also were tied for the 4th most sacks and 7th most interceptions in the NFL.

Just accept that saying the Buc’s or Patriots defense when they won it all was one of the best in the NFL and that doesn't detract from Brady or the offense’s greatness in the least.

Just accept that it’s a team game and it takes all three phases and good coaching to win rings.

Attributing everything to one magical player is blind hero worship. It’s a sure sign you don’t know anything about football or team sports in general.

 

[sb1]

Just accept that the 2020 Buc’s defense gave up the 6th fewest points and 6th fewest yards per drive in the NFL. They forced the 5th most turnovers, ranked #1 in run defense in yards, TD’s and YPA allowed. They also were tied for the 4th most sacks and 7th most interceptions in the NFL.

Just accept that saying the Buc’s or Patriots defense when they won it all was one of the best in the NFL and that doesn't detract from Brady or the offense’s greatness in the least.

Just accept that it’s a team game and it takes all three phases and good coaching to win rings.

Attributing everything to one magical player is blind hero worship. It’s a sure sign you don’t know anything about football or team sports in general

And 5 months ago you were trying to tell me that all the team’s woes were because of the QB. When I pointed out that he wasn’t getting good protection you said I was a Mac shill. Guess that whole team thing doesn’t count for him eh?

 

[XLIX]

Points scored or allowed is a fact.

Except when talking about the 2019 Buccaneers. For some reason, only rushing yards allowed is an important stat for that team. For some reason, we have to ignore passing yards allowed, total yards allowed and points allowed.

 

[Wozzy]

And 5 months ago you were trying to tell me that all the team’s woes were because of the QB. When I pointed out that he wasn’t getting good protection you said I was a Mac shill. Guess that whole team thing doesn’t count for him eh?

Up until week 3 against the Jests I said the offensive line not being healthy was the single biggest problem on the team. I didn't say Mac played well, he just wasn't outright bad. After they mostly got healthy against the Jests, Mac took a flaming nose dive. Mac sucked.

I've been talking New England sports since the early 90's on boston.com forums, never once in that time have I said you can win with terrible QB play, or that an amazing team can overcome a bad QB. That's just you trying to put words into my mouth that were never uttered or even insinuated.

Nick Foles beat Brady in a Super Bowl, Eli Manning beat him twice... so a great team can certainly make a merely "good" QB play better than they are.

 

[Wozzy]

Except when talking about the 2019 Buccaneers. For some reason, only rushing yards allowed is an important stat for that team. For some reason, we have to ignore passing yards allowed, total yards allowed and points allowed.

Nobody ignored anything. You just fail to realize the same corners who were on the team in 2020 were the same ones who were rookie and second year players in 2019 learning how to play the position.

Do you honestly think the defense magically got better in 2020 because Tom was out there making tackles, sacking opposing QB's, stuffing the run and making interceptions? Don't be absurd.

The 2019 Buc's biggest problem was Jameis Winston leading the NFL in turnovers. His 7 pick sixes is an all-time NFL record, in a hundred years of pro football no other QB has given opposing team so many points. If Tom Brady was the QB of that 2019 Buc's team, they likely would have won a championship or come close to it.

 

[sb1]

Up until week 3 against the Jests I said the offensive line not being healthy was the single biggest problem on the team. I didn't say Mac played well, he just wasn't outright bad. After they mostly got healthy against the Jests, Mac took a flaming nose dive. Mac sucked.

I've been talking New England sports since the early 90's on boston.com forums, never once in that time have I said you can win with terrible QB play, or that an amazing team can overcome a bad QB. That's just you trying to put words into my mouth that were never uttered or even insinuated.

Nick Foles beat Brady in a Super Bowl, Eli Manning beat him twice... so a great team can certainly make a merely "good" QB play better than they are.

Either it’s a team sport or it isn’t. Someone who correctly points out the flaws on the OL doesn’t make them a Mac shill…whatever that is. And QB wasn’t the only issue… otherwise Zappe would have done well and he didn’t.

Foles didn’t beat Brady he took advantage of the mismatches that were on the field thanks to a coach’s stupidity keeping his best tackling corner on the bench for who knows what reason.

 

[sb1]

Nobody ignored anything. You just fail to realize the same corners who were on the team in 2020 were the same ones who were rookie and second year players in 2019 learning how to play the position.

Do you honestly think the defense magically got better in 2020 because Tom was out there making tackles, sacking opposing QB's, stuffing the run and making interceptions? Don't be absurd.

The 2019 Buc's biggest problem was Jameis Winston leading the NFL in turnovers. His 7 pick sixes is an all-time NFL record, in a hundred years of pro football no other QB has given opposing team so many points. If Tom Brady was the QB of that 2019 Buc's team, they likely would have won a championship or come close to it.

They had no running game and one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019. Either way they weren’t this amazing team at all when Brady got there but they were good enough to be elevated by the GOAT to the championship. Doubtful any other QB would have done the same.

 

[Wozzy]

Either it’s a team sport or it isn’t. Someone who correctly points out the flaws on the OL doesn’t make them a Mac shill…whatever that is. And QB wasn’t the only issue… otherwise Zappe would have done well and he didn’t.

Foles didn’t beat Brady he took advantage of the mismatches that were on the field thanks to a coach’s stupidity keeping his best tackling corner on the bench for who knows what reason.

It's always a team sport, when Tom or Aaron Rogers or Peyton Manning won a ring they almost always had the best team in the playoffs.

Malcolm Butler sucked in 2017, he was the worst starting CB in football. They lost because the Patriot's D lost Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones and Pat Chung before or during the playoffs. Learn the game.

 

[Wozzy]

They had no running game and one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019. Either way they weren’t this amazing team at all when Brady got there but they were good enough to be elevated by the GOAT to the championship. Doubtful any other QB would have done the same.

It doesn't matter, Tom Brady has magical powers... laughable.

 

[NormZauchin]

It was a simple mistake but feel free to think I was lying if it makes you feel better.

No, it doesn't make me feel better. My initial reply was just a simple statement of fact that Belichick won a playoff game in 1995. Nothing more. No insult included or intended. I was surprised that you even bothered to reply and that your note had a tone of being offended by a simple fact.

 

[maust]

It doesn't matter, Tom Brady has magical powers... laughable.

For Tampa he certainly did. The magic of going from the outhouse of QB's to the penthouse. To be honest, we all know the difference a great QB can make on a team as a whole.

They had no running game and one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019. Either way they weren’t this amazing team at all when Brady got there but they were good enough to be elevated by the GOAT to the championship. Doubtful any other QB would have done the same.

The Bucs were the 24th ranked rushing team in 2019, they fell to 25th in 2020. The rushing stats don't help your cause at all. The truth is when you have the receiving corps the Bucs had in both those years running is an afterthought.
Their pass defense was 30th in 2019 when their QB kept putting them back out on the field at a record rate. It improved to 21st with the GOAT protecting the ball at QB.
The 2019 Bucs were a very good offensive team with a bad QB who failed at the number one task of anyone who handles the ball, don't cough it up.

I don't really understand what there is to disagree about here. Tom Brady made the Bucs a championship team. He did not however mold that offense from whole clay, there was plenty there to work with. One could even make the case by not hanging the D out to dry on the reg he substantially improved that side of the ball as well. One can not simply whistle past just how bad Jameis Winston hurt that team or ignore how much TFB improved it.

Outside of a desire to disagree and a willingness on both sides to distort and cherry pick there is no substantive argument to be had. Just guys who want to go at it and have a willingness to say only what suits their side.

 

[Wozzy]

For Tampa he certainly did. The magic of going from the outhouse of QB's to the penthouse. To be honest, we all know the difference a great QB can make on a team as a whole.

Considering my entire point was Tampa was the best team out there without a QB, I'll have to assume you're agreeing with me.

 

[maust]

Considering my entire point was Tampa was the best team out there without a QB, I'll have to assume you're agreeing with me.

I agree with both of you, Tampa was without a doubt let down in a historic way by Winston in 2019
Brady was such a huge improvement at QB that his presence improved the D by not repeatedly hanging it out to dry

 

[Wozzy]

I agree with both of you, Tampa was without a doubt let down in a historic way by Winston in 2019
Brady was such a huge improvement at QB that his presence improved the D by not repeatedly hanging it out to dry

Agree that better offense can help the defense in a complementary manner, but it's a very small part of a defense being great. A great offense and a magical QB cannot make a bad defense good... it simply can't. And we have many examples of this, the best of which is the Saints when Drew Brees was at the peak of his powers. For reference Brees is #2 just behind Tom on the NFL's all-time passing yards and TD's list... he's the closest thing we have to Tom Brady in terms of production.

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing yards three years in a row from 2014-2016, his offense was ranked 5th, 6th and 2nd in points scored per drive in the NFL that season. His defenses in those years were ranked 31st, 32nd and 32nd over that same stretch... the Saints won 7 games, 7 games and 7 games. Shouldn't his defenses have been better?

Bottom line is the Buc's were getting better year after year for three years in a row since Bruce Arians took over at head coach. The final piece to that was acquiring Brady to replace Winston. If Brady went to the Raiders instead, the other main contender for his services in 2020, and he was forced to play with the Raider's 31st ranked defense Tom would have fallen flat on his face. The same way he failed to win a ring when his Patriot's or Buc's teams weren't good enough.

The worst defense Tom ever played with was in 2002 when they were ranked 20th in points allowed, Tom also wasn't the best version of himself yet and the offense around him wasn't great... they went 9-7. He never approached a defense as bad as the Saints from 2014-2016... not even close.

The funniest piece of irony and hypocrisy in this thread today was this poster just above arguing out one side of his mouth that Brady was entirely responsible for BB and the Patriot's success.... but when he lost to Nick Foles in 2017 it was BB's fault for not playing Malcolm Butler. How is it possible Brady is responsible for BB's success, but it was BB's fault Brady lost the SB to Nick Foles in 2017 despite having the greatest statistical playoff game of his career?

The reason... because this entire thread only exists due to the delusion of BB haters and Brady fanboys.

Football is a team sport, the teams that win rings are good across their entire roster and in all three phases. You win the most playoff games in history by being a better team for two decades, it wasn't just because Brady was so great... so much better than his peers by a Grand Canyon sized gap... one ring compared to seven... respectively, that's a steaming load a sht.