How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[sb1]

They led the NFL in passing yards two year straight before Tom or Gronk arrived… but in your estimation they weren’t talented. Smaht…

Oh right I forgot... your measuring stick for an "elite" TE is Hunter Henry. Lol

If that was true Tom would have closer to 23 rings than 7.

#Cheerleaders

Didn't say anything about 23 rings I said getting Tom put an ok-ish but not stacked Bucs team over the top all by itself. Which it did. Just the facts. How have the Pats done since Brady left?

 

[signbabybrady]

They led the NFL in passing yards two year’s straight before Tom or Gronk arrived… but in your estimation they weren’t talented. Smaht…

Of course they were talented. And it might have come together without Gronk. Brady is that good id say probably would have but having someone he was comfortable with already was definitely a help and he was the best TE of the 3.

As you've pointed out already they had a good a roster and what made them a champ was slotting in the best QB ever to an already good roster but Gronk slotting in and Suh and whoever else followed were large parts of it all. And just some large men too.

 

[sb1]

Of course they were talented. And it might have come together without Gronk. Brady is that good id say probably would have but having someone he was comfortable with already was definitely a help and he was the best TE of the 3.

As you've pointed out already they had a good a roster and what made them a champ was slotting in the best QB ever to an already good roster but Gronk slotting in and Suh and whoever else followed were large parts of it all. And just some large men too.

Understandable why some think the Bucs were so "stacked" Brady must have been along for the ride there to to the title.

Compared to the Patriots these days they certainly are a loaded team with talent everywhere... and so are most teams.

 

[signbabybrady]

Understandable why some think the Bucs were so "stacked" Brady must have been along for the ride there to to the title.

Compared to the Patriots these days they certainly are a loaded team with talent everywhere... and so are most teams.

I think both things are true they were pretty stacked outside of QB and they were never winning anything without Tom.

Super team is a term i'd leave for a very rare few.

 

[sb1]

I think both things are true they were pretty stacked outside of QB and they were never winning anything without Tom.

Super team is a term i'd leave for a very rare few.

They had almost no running game and the 29th ranked defense in scoring thanks to one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019.

I don't think their 7-9 record happened just because their QB threw a bunch of picks...

 

[signbabybrady]

Fro

They had almost no running game and the 29th ranked defense in scoring thanks to one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019.

I don't think their 7-9 record happened just because their QB threw a bunch of picks...

Front 7 was pretty good

 

[Wozzy]

Oh right I forgot... your measuring stick for an "elite" TE is Hunter Henry. Lol


Didn't say anything about 23 rings I said getting Tom put an ok-ish but not stacked Bucs team over the top all by itself. Which it did. Just the facts. How have the Pats done since Brady left?

The Pats haven't had a QB... you don't even understand the conversation.

 

[sb1]

The Pats haven't had a QB... you don't even understand the conversation.

They did when Brady was here. Funny what happened to the Bucs when they got him.

 

[Wozzy]

Of course they were talented. And it might have come together without Gronk. Brady is that good id say probably would have but having someone he was comfortable with already was definitely a help and he was the best TE of the 3.

As you've pointed out already they had a good a roster and what made them a champ was slotting in the best QB ever to an already good roster but Gronk slotting in and Suh and whoever else followed were large parts of it all. And just some large men too.

I already stated pages back players who followed Brady there was a part of it. Now we're veering into pretending to know what Suh and other free agents would have done if the QB had been someone else.

 

[Wozzy]

They did when Brady was here. Funny what happened to the Bucs when they got him.

Brady got Arians fired and went 8-9. Players need good coaching (play calling) the same way coaches need good players. It's a team game.

Of course you can't explain and actively avoid why Brady's magic powers didn't lead to 23 rings rather than 7.

It's typical fan worship, Brady was responsible or every win, he was responsible for good blocking, defense and special teams, he was responsible for the rings, but all the times they lost... it was his team's fault.

Team didn't matter unless they lost, then it was his team's fault.

Total fantasyland. Santa Claus level delusion...

 

[1960Pats]

They did when Brady was here. Funny what happened to the Bucs when they got him.

I wouldn't want the job of trying to defend Bill's record without Brady. He's Wrecks Ryan without any playoff wins.

 

[1960Pats]

Brady got Arians fired and went 8-9. Players need good coaching (play calling) the same way coaches need good players. It's a team game.

Of course you can't explain and actively avoid why Brady's magic powers didn't lead to 23 rings rather than 7.

It's typical fan worship, Brady was responsible or every win, he was responsible for good blocking, defense and special teams, he was responsible for the rings, but all the times they lost... it was his team's fault.

Team didn't matter, unless they lost, then it was his team's fault.

Total fantasyland. Santa Claus level delusion...

It's too bad that Brady didn't get Bill fired first. Then he wouldn't have had to fire Arians.

There were multiple reasons why Brady didn't win every year. Beside blowing out his knee and injuries to other players, there were some ridiculous coaching decisions. The 4th and 2 at Indy, putting Gronk on defense in Miami in place of McCourty and the Butler benching are but a few. Even in TB Brady was robbed by a stupid call from Bowles.

Brady was responsible for a lot more than most QBs.

Never heard Brady pull a Manning and throw his team under the bus.

Fantasyland is thinking that anyone said it was all Brady. If anyone did they were trolling you.

 

[maust]

Sure it is an argument when it cannot be trumped. 7-9 teams are not "stacked" anywhere nor are they a superteam that made Brady win a championship. That was just not the case.

Wishful thinking to the contrary doesn't make it so.

When a team has 2 WR's going over 1100 yds and totals 5100+ in receiving yards it is sure as hell "stacked" somewhere.

They had almost no running game and the 29th ranked defense in scoring thanks to one of the worst pass defenses in the league in 2019.

I don't think their 7-9 record happened just because their QB threw a bunch of picks...

Throwing 'a bunch of picks' certainly does impact a team's record, when 'a bunch' is defined as 30 in addition to 12 fumbles 5 of which were lost. 7 of those int's were pick 6's. So in addition to gifting the opposition 42 points (plus PAT's), Winston forced his D back on the field 28 times. The Bucs led the league in opponents # of drives with a whopping 192, 15 more than the league average. Bucs opponents avg drive started at the 31.3 yard mark, 3rd worst in the league. Winston pick 6's alone definitively accounted for the margin of loss in 4 of Tampa's losses, think about that for a hot minute.

The back and forth hairsplitting on this is mind-numbingly silly. I am a big fan of TFB, there is no need to gild the horns of the GOAT. Likewise when someone says he went to a stacked offense that was criminally underserved by their previous QB, they aren't lying and it takes nothing away from Brady. Did the team get better beyond the addition of Brady? Sure it did. Did it need to get much better than 'just' replacing Winston with Brady? Probably not. After all, 'just' swapping your team's weakest link for the GOAT is one hell of a 'just'

BTW, Fournette had a whopping 15 yards from scrimmage more as the #2 back than Peyton Barber the year before. He wasn't all that great of an add. AB was fairly pedestrian in Tampa as well, in addition to the headaches he brought. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze with Mr Big Chest post Pittsburgh. Tampa didn't pay him much ($4.5 over 2 years for 15 regular season games) but I'd venture a guess they'd just as soon he was never on the payroll.

 

[Wozzy]

It's too bad that Brady didn't get Bill fired first. Then he wouldn't have had to fire Arians.

There were multiple reasons why Brady didn't win every year. Beside blowing out his knee and injuries to other players, there were some ridiculous coaching decisions. The 4th and 2 at Indy, putting Gronk on defense in Miami in place of McCourty and the Butler benching are but a few. Even in TB Brady was robbed by a stupid call from Bowles.

Brady was responsible for a lot more than most QBs.

Never heard Brady pull a Manning and throw his team under the bus.

Fantasyland is thinking that anyone said it was all Brady. If anyone did they were trolling you.

There's at least one guy who thinks you along the other Brady zealots here are loons, and the entire tenor of this thread is full of sht...

He would tell you and the other cheerleaders here that you're 100% entirely wrong, and it wouldn't be modesty.

Distilling a sport made up of 53 man rosters, three phases and the massive team effort it takes to win a championship down to one player is blind hero worship. It's the the stuff of children.... but you guys keep doing you.

You can really tell the people who have never played organized football (sports) at even the peewee level here by the nonsense they write.

 

[sb1]

When a team has 2 WR's going over 1100 yds and totals 5100+ in receiving yards it is sure as hell "stacked" somewhere.

People talk like Brady went to a team that was otherwise ready to win a championship. Far from it. They weren't a talented 10 win team that just needed a QB to get them over the hump and win in the playoffs, they were 7-9 for a reason. Acquiring Brady put them over the top.

Throwing 'a bunch of picks' certainly does impact a team's record, when 'a bunch' is defined as 30 in addition to 12 fumbles 5 of which were lost. 7 of those int's were pick 6's. So in addition to gifting the opposition 42 points (plus PAT's), Winston forced his D back on the field 28 times. The Bucs led the league in opponents # of drives with a whopping 192, 15 more than the league average. Bucs opponents avg drive started at the 31.3 yard mark, 3rd worst in the league. Winston pick 6's alone definitively accounted for the margin of loss in 4 of Tampa's losses, think about that for a hot minute.

Looking into Winston's numbers, 23% of the plays the defenses threw at him were pressures. That's high. Even more than what Jones and Zappe saw this past season and our OL was certainly not world beaters. Even Sam Howell who gets sacked probably more than anyone didn't see as many pressures. I suspect Winston's protection had a lot of room for improvement and that explains the turnovers at least in part.

The back and forth hairsplitting on this is mind-numbingly silly. I am a big fan of TFB, there is no need to gild the horns of the GOAT. Likewise when someone says he went to a stacked offense that was criminally underserved by their previous QB, they aren't lying and it takes nothing away from Brady. Did the team get better beyond the addition of Brady? Sure it did. Did it need to get much better than 'just' replacing Winston with Brady? Probably not. After all, 'just' swapping your team's weakest link for the GOAT is one hell of a 'just'

They certainly did upgrade the QB, but let's not confuse that with Brady going to a fully loaded team that was on the verge of winning it all and by implication, being along for the ride while his team carried him. They were absolutely not such a team. Not even close. It's also interesting that once Gronk and AB joined the team and once Brady took over the offense to run it his way that changed the entire complexion of the season.

 

[sb1]

There's at least one guy who thinks you along the other Brady zealots here are loons, and the entire tenor of this thread is full of sht...

He would tell you and the other cheerleaders here that you're 100% entirely wrong, and it wouldn't be modesty.

Distilling a sport made up of 53 man rosters, three phases and the massive team effort it takes to win a championship down to one player is blind hero worship. It's the the stuff of children.... but you guys keep doing you.

You can really tell the people who have never played organized football (sports) at even the peewee level here by the nonsense they write.

What else was Brady going to say? Fact remains Bill as a HC without Brady is 16 games below .500 and .463 overall. Actually Rex Ryan has a better record without Brady (.480) also with more playoff wins. .463 would put him closer to to Tony Sparano.

Numbers don't lie. The story is right there in black and white.

 

[Wozzy]

cheerleader What else was Brady going to say? Fact remains Bill as a HC without Brady is 16 games below .500 and .463 overall. Actually Rex Ryan has a better record without Brady (.480) also with more playoff wins. .463 would put him closer to to Tony Sparano.

Numbers don't lie. The story is right there in black and white.

Brady had better defenses than any of his peers for two decades, but in your estimation it wasn’t a benefit… the numbers are lying.

#cheerleaders

 

[sb1]

Brady had better defenses than any of his peers for two decades,

 

[maust]

People talk like Brady went to a team that was otherwise ready to win a championship. Far from it. They weren't a talented 10 win team that just needed a QB to get them over the hump and win in the playoffs, they were 7-9 for a reason. Acquiring Brady put them over the top.

You really need to quit arguing with the guy that's making your core point better than you are and for heaven's sake please stop with the cherry picking and straw man foolishness when engaging me. I am not 'people' saying some random BS (that no one has actually said the way you think they did). I am essentially saying what you are except I took one very specific disagreement with you, your contention that '7-9 teams are not "stacked" anywhere'. The 2019 Bucs were stacked at WR, there is no denying it. Any team with 2019 Evans, Godwin and Perriman was certainly "stacked" at WR. Winston's pick 6's alone were the direct cause of 4 losses, you can try to cherry pick your way around that but all you do is look silly. The dude undeniably cost his 7-9 team no less than 4 games with pick 6's. They were a talented offensive team with an extremely weak link turnover machine at QB. Any good QB could have gotten them into the playoffs. What Brady did wasn't just a matter of getting them into the playoffs though, he also made that entire team better. TFB made them legit contenders and players like Gronk, Suh and the others that signed there because Brady did sealed the championship deal. Don't count Fournette and AB among them though, they had JAG years and were not demonstrably better than the guys they replaced.

TFB on the other hand was leagues above who he replaced. That has been my point right along. Tom Brady elevated that whole team with not just his play but his presence. The GOAT doing all the GOAT things secured that Lombardi for Tampa. He wasn't along for the ride, he was the reason there was a ride.

 

[NormZauchin]

I wouldn't want the job of trying to defend Bill's record without Brady. He's Wrecks Ryan without any playoff wins.

Bill did win a playoff game against the Parcells Patriots on 1/1/1995.