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Holland vs. Munson


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Here is my issue with Munson: Maybe he's right. Maybe Judge Berman will rule for the NFL for the reasons he states.

But, that is not his job. How many times have Supreme Court rulings not gone the way many expected. A legal analyst will explain what the issues are, why each side could win and the strengths and weaknesses of each case. Even if he's right, he's provided little insight.

His analysis seems very cursory.
 
I am not even sure that the Garvey ruling on banning the re-argument of facts applies in cases where the alleged facts were ascertained by the use of lies, falsification of data, manipulation of public opinion, and other underhanded tactics, all that are directly linked to the person who was making the allegations, making a ruling, and hearing an appeal. This is not a case of making errors. This is a case of crafting falsehoods.
 
Should have listened to the end. LeBatard calls him out at the end on how he is the only legal expert in the world saying what he is say. Munson just says he has more experience and more versed in the law than all the other legal experts. Maybe that is why he was disbarred.
He was disbarred for fraud, misconduct, and being a drunk. Pretty sure the last of those is still in effect.
 
Your positional evolution notwithstanding, Garvey controls issues of facts, not process, and subsequent rulings have shown avenues to attack arbitrations. I laid out the applicable section of Title IX upon which such attacks are based in another thread, but I'll re-post it here:

(a) In any of the following cases the United States court in and for the district wherein the award was made may make an order vacating the award upon the application of any party to the arbitration—
(1)
where the award was procured by corruption, fraud, or undue means;
(2)
where there was evident partiality or corruption in the arbitrators, or either of them;
(3)
where the arbitrators were guilty of misconduct in refusing to postpone the hearing, upon sufficient cause shown, or in refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy; or of any other misbehavior by which the rights of any party have been prejudiced; or
(4)
where the arbitrators exceeded their powers, or so imperfectly executed them that a mutual, final, and definite award upon the subject matter submitted was not made.
(b)
If an award is vacated and the time within which the agreement required the award to be made has not expired, the court may, in its discretion, direct a rehearing by the arbitrators.
(c)
The United States district court for the district wherein an award was made that was issued pursuant to section 580 of title 5 may make an order vacating the award upon the application of a person, other than a party to the arbitration, who is adversely affected or aggrieved by the award, if the use of arbitration or the award is clearly inconsistent with the factors set forth in section 572 of title 5.
(July 30, 1947, ch. 392, 61 Stat. 672; Pub. L. 101–552, § 5, Nov. 15, 1990, 104 Stat. 2745; Pub. L. 102–354, § 5(b)(4), Aug. 26, 1992, 106 Stat. 946; Pub. L. 107–169, § 1, May 7, 2002, 116 Stat. 132.)


#2, #3, and #4 are all clearly in play.

Deus, yes I actually quoted that in a thread where I argued that #2 was clearly at play. I do sincerely hope and want the judge to see things that way, and it seems obvious to me that #2 should be sufficient.

However, we also know how rare it is for judges to go that way, with a long line of focus on forgiving even silly and mercurial arbitration processes, and this has the explicit imprimatur of SCOTUS. Hence, my argument that despite all the ad hominem against Munsen (which is mostly what this thread is filled with: your post is not), he isn't (in this case) making an insane argument about what will, in fact, happen.

Of course, there are other options, but it is never clear cut, and SCOTUS is a pretty big deal....some of you may have heard of them.

This is a chain of thought that we have entertained independently of Munsen in many threads at this site, I think it was patsfan74 articulated it most clearly yesterday, that it really depends on how much the judge feels his hands are tied. And despite his line of questioning, and stating the stuff about Pash, we simply don't know. Because it happens to be Munsen saying it, people are acting all weird and attacking him, but objectively, he isn't saying anything stupid, even though he has obviously said many other stupid things.

A person with a pessimistic attitude would have made the best predictions about everything thus far in this saga. I don't see a judge who talks about clear weaknesses in both cases, who clearly wants both sides to settle, suddenly overturning arbitration which he is bound to be deferential toward. But as you pointed out, there are means at his disposal and I sure hope he takes them. But I'm going with the pessimist now, until proven that I should not.
 
I am not even sure that the Garvey ruling on banning the re-argument of facts applies in cases where the alleged facts were ascertained by the use of lies, falsification of data, manipulation of public opinion, and other underhanded tactics, all that are directly linked to the person who was making the allegations, making a ruling, and hearing an appeal. This is not a case of making errors. This is a case of crafting falsehoods.

I love your optimism buddy, but your predictions springing from it have all fallen flat. You are right such things are not protected (see #2 in the list of reasons to vacate), but the judge won't see it that way. We see it that way, but the judge won't.

I've gone full chicken little.
 
A person with a pessimistic attitude would have made the best predictions about everything thus far in this saga.

That is absolutely incorrect.
 
like clockwork apparently felger is treating munson's opinion piece as gospel but people like McCann and Stradley's opinion are wrong because why? It's not an anti-Pats/Brady opinion.
 
Munson is really an embarrassment. He cites the "evidence" of the NFL where there is none, puts forth the idea that the league has a stronger case based on nothing, and essentially solely relies on the argument that Goodell can do whatever he wants. Oh, and he throws in a little CYA at the end that even if Brady wins because he's a "celebrity athlete," he'll lose eventually. I'm sorry, that's pathetic.
 
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like clockwork apparently felger is treating munson's opinion piece as gospel but people like McCann and Stradley's opinion are wrong because why? It's not an anti-Pats/Brady opinion.
They were doing the same on WEEI this afternoon. For Christ sakes they were throwing around terms like "intelligent" and "respected" in description of Munson as an analyst...
 
OK I'm confused. Just listened to Munson's take and I've heard this logic elsewhere in various forms.

"The judge is ripping the NFL's position only to force the NFL to settle" "The Judge may know that he will have to rule in the NFL's favor because the CBA is too strong"

If the judge wants to force the two sides to settle, wouldn't he rip both sides?

I do not understand a judge ripping the party with the strongest Legal position so that the party with the weakest position would somehow get a settlement they desire.

Here's a potential reason why -- the law may favor party A while justice favors party B. In other words, the judge knows that if forced to rule he will have to rule for A even though A screwed B. Therefore the interests of justice and fairness would be served if there was a settlement on more favorable terms to B than the court ruling would be. Hence trying to scare/bluff A into settling.
 
They were doing the same on WEEI this afternoon. For Christ sakes they were throwing around terms like "intelligent" and "respected" in description of Munson as an analyst...

Must have been the 10-2 show because I was listening to Dale & Thorton just a little awhile ago and they were killing him.
 
Must have been the 10-2 show because I was listening to Dale & Thorton just a little awhile ago and they were killing him.
It was...Ordway and Merloni.
 
That is absolutely incorrect.

Actually you are right. Berman at least decided to hear the case. The pessimist predicted otherwise. So I'm wrong on that.
 
Deus, yes I actually quoted that in a thread where I argued that #2 was clearly at play. I do sincerely hope and want the judge to see things that way, and it seems obvious to me that #2 should be sufficient.

However, we also know how rare it is for judges to go that way, with a long line of focus on forgiving even silly and mercurial arbitration processes, and this has the explicit imprimatur of SCOTUS. Hence, my argument that despite all the ad hominem against Munsen (which is mostly what this thread is filled with: your post is not), he isn't (in this case) making an insane argument about what will, in fact, happen.

Of course, there are other options, but it is never clear cut, and SCOTUS is a pretty big deal....some of you may have heard of them.

This is a chain of thought that we have entertained independently of Munsen in many threads at this site, I think it was patsfan74 articulated it most clearly yesterday, that it really depends on how much the judge feels his hands are tied. And despite his line of questioning, and stating the stuff about Pash, we simply don't know. Because it happens to be Munsen saying it, people are acting all weird and attacking him, but objectively, he isn't saying anything stupid, even though he has obviously said many other stupid things.

A person with a pessimistic attitude would have made the best predictions about everything thus far in this saga. I don't see a judge who talks about clear weaknesses in both cases, who clearly wants both sides to settle, suddenly overturning arbitration which he is bound to be deferential toward. But as you pointed out, there are means at his disposal and I sure hope he takes them. But I'm going with the pessimist now, until proven that I should not.

I think it's to your credit that you acknowledge you've gone full pessimist here, and you’re absolutely right that you’d be the leader in the club house so far by betting on the pessimists. But what it’s done is cloud your judgment just as much as you’re suggesting others are deluded. The criticism of Munson isn’t ad hominem for the most part—his reasoning is aggressively shoddy in many instances here.
 
A person with a pessimistic attitude would have made the best predictions about everything thus far in this saga. I don't see a judge who talks about clear weaknesses in both cases, who clearly wants both sides to settle, suddenly overturning arbitration which he is bound to be deferential toward. But as you pointed out, there are means at his disposal and I sure hope he takes them. But I'm going with the pessimist now, until proven that I should not.

This doesn't have to be hypothetical. Just look at what Ron Borges and Munson have been saying all along. They've been wrong about everything they've made a statement on since this made it to court. First Brady wasn't going to take it to court because he had too much to hide, then he went and published all his emails. Then it was going to be an open-and-shut case with sealed records where the judge concluded that the NFL had the authority to do whatever it wanted. Instead, Berman's made everything public, and repeatedly hammered the NFL on topics that Munson insisted he would never touch.

I totally agree with your sentiment up to the point that this case left the NFL's control. You were totally right to be a pessimist, because as long as the NFL was in the driver's seat we were never going to get a fair shake. I think there's pretty good reason to believe that this at least could be a different ballgame. Or maybe it won't be, who knows. But I think the level of certainty that you're expressing in your pessimism is unwarranted in either direction.
 
Here's a potential reason why -- the law may favor party A while justice favors party B. In other words, the judge knows that if forced to rule he will have to rule for A even though A screwed B. Therefore the interests of justice and fairness would be served if there was a settlement on more favorable terms to B than the court ruling would be. Hence trying to scare/bluff A into settling.

This is exactly my fear, and why I fear Munsen may be right (even though apparently he might be right the way a broken clock is right).
 
This doesn't have to be hypothetical. Just look at what Ron Borges and Munson have been saying all along. They've been wrong about everything they've made a statement on since this made it to court. First Brady wasn't going to take it to court because he had too much to hide, then he went and published all his emails. Then it was going to be an open-and-shut case with sealed records where the judge concluded that the NFL had the authority to do whatever it wanted. Instead, Berman's made everything public, and repeatedly hammered the NFL on topics that Munson insisted he would never touch.

Yes, good point, as I admitted to Deus I was thinking more pre-Berman.....

I do admit I have now tilted my thinking to err on the side of pessimism, which is to say I am skewing toward error and away from the objectivity I typically strive for. As I said above, I've gone full chicken little....
 
Yes, good point, as I admitted to Deus I was thinking more pre-Berman.....

I do admit I have now tilted my thinking to err on the side of pessimism, which is to say I am skewing toward error and away from the objectivity I typically strive for. As I said above, I've gone full chicken little....

Fair enough, I can definitely understand the motivation behind doing so. I think the difference that you're seeing in the rest of the people on this thread is that most of us haven't made that leap.
 
I think the level of certainty that you're expressing in your pessimism is unwarranted in either direction.

This is almost certainly true. :)
 
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