Hey Al: Stop messin' with our draft pick

[spacecrime]

If we hadn't traded Seymour, I bet there's a good chance we can keep him and Vince.

If people didn't have different opinions, bookies would go out of business. People generally believe what they want to believe.

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

McNabb could actually revitalize the Oakland Raiders singlehanded much like Jim Plunkett did a while back.

 

[Rob0729]

McNabb could actually revitalize the Oakland Raiders singlehanded much like Jim Plunkett did a while back.

McNabb is neither that good or that young to revive the Raiders. The Raiders have far too many holes and poor management and coaching for McNabb to overcome. He can make them far more competitive, but doubtful he can make them a Super Bowl competitor.

Besides, Plunkett didn't single handily revive the Raiders in 1980. The Raiders 13 straight seasons with winning records (making the playoffs ten of those 13 seasons) prior to Plunkett winning the starting role after Davis traded Ken Stabler for holding out including winning the Super Bowl in 1976 (four years before Plunkett won his). The Raiders were already a very good team the year that Plunkett took over.

 

[supafly]

for one season in which the Pats went nowhere anyway.

You can say Seymour was the best DE in the league if you want. He was very very good. He helped win two superbowls. But he wasn't the best any more. As someone pointed out, he was often pulled during obvious passing situations. What does that tell you?

Oh, yeah, that's right. It tells you that BB is the stupidest coach in the history of the NFL.

Seymour's contribution helped win 3 SB's, although he was hurt in the 04 seasons' playoffs, He still came back to play vs. PHI in Super Bowl 39. He played in 3 SB's.

He wasn't the best anymore? If he wasn't the best 3-4 DE in the game anymore than who was it? Luis Castillo or Aaron Smith? Hardly. It's interesting that he's been to the Pro Bowl both as a 3-4 DE, and as a 4-3 DT.

Seymour was an every down player for about 85% here. He wasn't "often" pulled in passing situations like you claim, that was something that was experimented from the 07 and 08 seasons, if you go back and read the article you'll see that BB claimed he was experimenting with various schemes. Belichick has often prepared for various opponents in different ways, he may have been trying other ways to get pressure. The bottom line is that Seymour was and is, for the most part still--an every down player.

Not only was he an every down player for the majority here, he had played all 30 front positions here, and played all 40 front positions last year for OAK. Don't tell me about his versatility.

I have absolutely NO idea what you are even remotely trying to say with the last statement. How does that tell me that BB is the stupidest coach in the history of the NFL? Who would ever say that? There certainly has never been any statement that I have ever made, beside in BB I trust. I couldn't imagine what you're trying to say there, but judging from your recent comments about TO being held to 1 catch in the SB, and Curtis Martin not helping the NYJ when averaging 1300 yds a season, I really wouldn't want to try and figure it out.

I think you're a good poster, besides pointing out negative aspects in about 80% of your posts, but you've lost me lately with some of your opinions. To each his own I guess?

 

[supafly]

Then looking at their current cap/salary situation, they made an error in judgement. I can't see how someone can look at patscap.com, see $114 million, see that we could easily cut a few unnecessary contracts (AD, Springs, Taylor, etc.), and come to the conclusion we wouldn't have the money to sign Seymour. We most certainly do.

We spent $128 milli last year, and $118 milli the year before. The cap has steadily been rising $10 million a year, as has spending. Kraft should be prepared to spend $138 milli this offseason on the team. I know the CBA and lack of cap clouds things, but I think that's a fair assessment.

If the Patriots cut certain players, that leaves them with about $30 million to spend - even having already extended Wilfork, Bodden & TBC. Even if they put $10 of that in Brady, and another $10 in rookies & summer veteran free agents....that still leaves another $10 million to be spent, with no one to spend it on. They tried to get in on Peppers, but now what's left?

The funny thing is, the poster you're debating with Rob0729, spent the whole offseason explaining to us that the Pats were well prepared to spend close to 50 million, etc. He continuously went on and on with how much under the 'projected cap' they were, and gave us stats upon stats with their recent spending in the past 5 years etc.

Now, you're trying to tell him what he's been telling us with all of his posts about how much he expected Kraft to spend etc. Go back and look at his posts regarding this yr's spending--you'll see he was saying the same thing that you are, with the obvious exception of the specific player being Seymour. He was prepared to go after a high-tier FA, last yr he was saying how we could've kept both Wilfork, Seymour,plus the addition of Peppers.

I guess hindsight's 20/20

 

[ausbacker]

its not relevant anymore........it is the same deal either way.......the success of the player is pretty irrelevant......or it is about as relevant as saying 'what if seymour had a career ending knee injury in week 1 of last year?' would the deal not made have been a bad deal then?

hindsight has no value

Everything that transpires from what that draft pick becomes whether it's a player, whether it's traded or whether it becomes lower draft picks is relevant. The deal is the deal yet the outcome is to be determined.

 

[Rob0729]

The fact of the matter is that history has always judged players for picks trades based on the player(s) selected with the picks and the product of the player traded after he is traded. Here are a few of the biggest examples:

1.) What is considered the biggest lopsided trade in NFL history is based soley on that. The Herschel Walker trade is not considered such a lopsided trade because of number of picks that the Cowboys got, but what those picks became when they drafted or traded for to draft. It was because what became a trade basically Herschel Walker and Jake Reed (and a couple of scrubs) for Emmitt Smith, Russell Maryland (well they used a pick from that trade to trade up to get Maryland), Darren Woodson, a few solid players (Dixon Edwards and Alvin Harper), and some scrubs. Walker doing not much for the Vikes also made it lopsided. Also, Woodson, Maryland, and Smith playinng key roles in three Super Bowl seasons also makes it lopsided.

2.) Irving Friar to Miami. Based on pure value, the Pats raped the Dolphins. Fryar was an underperforming, head case who was over 30 that the Pats got a second and third rounder for him. Score New England. Except something happened, Fryar found God and became a top WR for four or five years and the Pats drafted Todd Rucci and Joe Burch with those picks. History looks at that trade as a lopsided trade in Miami's favor when at the time of the trade, most felt the opposite.

3.) People thought Ron Wolf was crazy for swapping first round picks for a boozing back up QB with only one year in the Pros with Atlanta back in 1992. That QB was Brett Favre and the Falcons drafted Tony Smith. This trade helped to make Jerry Glanville the media baffoon that he became.

4.) Ok, it was a pick for pick trade, but the Pats still get slammed for trading away the pick for Jerry Rice where if you look at the trade on the value of the pick positions alone, the Pats got the better end of the trade. The Pats got a first, second, and third for a first and third. But the trade will always be remembered as Jerry Rice for Trevor Matich. But if production of the players picked have no bearing on the value of the trade, the Pats owned the 49ers on this trade.

5.) The 49ers traded a second and fourth round pick for a bust of a QB by the name of Steve Young. Clearly a stupid trade by the 49ers since Young was a huge bust in Tampa, had lost his job to Vinny Testeverde, and not worth that much in compensation. BTW, the Bucs drafted Winston Moss and Bruce Hill. The 49ers gets jobbed again.

6.) Randy Moss was a bad trade for the Pats based purely on value at the time of the trade. He was a disgruntled player who quit on his team and many thought was done that no other team wanted even for a fourth round pick and the Pats gave the Raiders that anyway. Based on pure value alone and not post trade production, it was a brilliant move by Al Davis and mistake by the Patriots.

Do I really need to go on? If the 2011 pick turns into the next Tom Brady or Lawrence Taylor, history will remember this trade as one of the worst trades in NFL history by the Raiders. If that pick becomes the next Ryan Leaf or Vernon Gholston, history will remember it as a horrible trade for the Pats. That is how trades work. Anyone who thinks otherwise, look again at the trades above.

 

[supafly]

The fact of the matter is that history has always judged players for picks trades based on the player(s) selected with the picks and the product of the player traded after he is traded. Here are a few of the biggest examples:

1.) What is considered the biggest lopsided trade in NFL history is based soley on that. The Herschel Walker trade is not considered such a lopsided trade because of number of picks that the Cowboys got, but what those picks became when they drafted or traded for to draft. It was because what became a trade basically Herschel Walker and Jake Reed (and a couple of scrubs) for Emmitt Smith, Russell Maryland (well they used a pick from that trade to trade up to get Maryland), Darren Woodson, a few solid players (Dixon Edwards and Alvin Harper), and some scrubs. Walker doing not much for the Vikes also made it lopsided. Also, Woodson, Maryland, and Smith playinng key roles in three Super Bowl seasons also makes it lopsided.

2.) Irving Friar to Miami. Based on pure value, the Pats raped the Dolphins. Fryar was an underperforming, head case who was over 30 that the Pats got a second and third rounder for him. Score New England. Except something happened, Fryar found God and became a top WR for four or five years and the Pats drafted Todd Rucci and Joe Burch with those picks. History looks at that trade as a lopsided trade in Miami's favor when at the time of the trade, most felt the opposite.

3.) People thought Ron Wolf was crazy for swapping first round picks for a boozing back up QB with only one year in the Pros with Atlanta back in 1992. That QB was Brett Favre and the Falcons drafted Tony Smith. This trade helped to make Jerry Glanville the media baffoon that he became.

4.) Ok, it was a pick for pick trade, but the Pats still get slammed for trading away the pick for Jerry Rice where if you look at the trade on the value of the pick positions alone, the Pats got the better end of the trade. The Pats got a first, second, and third for a first and third. But the trade will always be remembered as Jerry Rice for Trevor Matich. But if production of the players picked have no bearing on the value of the trade, the Pats owned the 49ers on this trade.

5.) The 49ers traded a second and fourth round pick for a bust of a QB by the name of Steve Young. Clearly a stupid trade by the 49ers since Young was a huge bust in Tampa, had lost his job to Vinny Testeverde, and not worth that much in compensation. BTW, the Bucs drafted Winston Moss and Bruce Hill. The 49ers gets jobbed again.

6.) Randy Moss was a bad trade for the Pats based purely on value at the time of the trade. He was a disgruntled player who quit on his team and many thought was done that no other team wanted even for a fourth round pick and the Pats gave the Raiders that anyway. Based on pure value alone and not post trade production, it was a brilliant move by Al Davis and mistake by the Patriots.

Do I really need to go on? If the 2011 pick turns into the next Tom Brady or Lawrence Taylor, history will remember this trade as one of the worst trades in NFL history by the Raiders. If that pick becomes the next Ryan Leaf or Vernon Gholston, history will remember it as a horrible trade for the Pats. That is how trades work. Anyone who thinks otherwise, look again at the trades above.

Nice job with overall point, analysis, and research. Hopefully, OAK has a lousy year, we get a great pick, and he turns into the next Lawrence Taylor.