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Has ESPN lost it's mind?


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Did you notice the 4 three-and-outs and completely inept passing game that would have knocked most teams chances out from winning that game? What about the multiple horribly placed passes from Sanchez when he missed wide open receivers?

The HOME CROWD booing their own quarterback???
Gee, call me crazy, but I don't think any statistical system designed to rate quarterbacks should take into account whether or not they were booed by the home crowd. The simple fact of the matter is that Brady threw 2 INT's while Sanchez threw none. That statistic alone is going to have a huge impact on their respective ratings, as it should.

It's hilarious how upset some people get at the (accurate) notion that for one week in our lives Mark Sanchez statistically out-performed Tom Brady. If everything about each QB's performance was reversed, the same people would be arguing just as vehemently about how 14-25, 201 yds, 2 combined TD's was better than 27-41, 289, 2 TD's, 2 INT's.
 
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Very good point.


Both rating systems have their flaws. But if some folks here set the kool-aid down for a minute, it is apparent that Sanchez had a better game than Brady did last week ... and just as apparent that Brady has had a better season than Sanchez has had.

NFL - Week 6 Total QBR Leaders - ESPN
NFL - Week 6 Total QBR Season Leaders - ESPN

As for those defending the traditional QB Rating over the new model because the new one had Sanchez over Brady, consider this: for the week 6 games only Brady was 82.3 and Sanchez was 95.6 under the old QBR; for the season Brady is 104.8 (2nd) and Sanchez is 82.3 (20th).

Aren't both ratings systems saying pretty much the same thing?
+1 and well said. It sure seems to me like both systems are saying the same thing.

Any system where you start looking at percentages and averages (i.e. yards per attempt, percentage of passes that result in TD's, etc.) is going to be out of whack when you look at a small sample size. 1 single game is a pretty small sample size.

I am able to somehow, someway continuing living my life and being a productive member of society despite admitting than for one week, Sanchez outperformed Brady. I am not sure if that's true for some others in here.
 
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As for those defending the traditional QB Rating over the new model because the new one had Sanchez over Brady, consider this: for the week 6 games only Brady was 82.3 and Sanchez was 95.6 under the old QBR; for the season Brady is 104.8 (2nd) and Sanchez is 82.3 (20th).

Aren't both ratings systems saying pretty much the same thing?

That's kind of the point, though, isn't it? If QBR is basically saying the same thing as the old quarterback rating, it's not needed and ESPN can stop trying to browbeat us into pretending that "their" stat is really worth looking at or of any import.
 
ESPN talked up this QBR thing all summer but never actually gave us a formula for how it is actually calculated (they just said they take things like clutch throws into consideration, etc.)

So I have developed my own DQR (Dan's QB Rating) It takes things like Superbowl championships, how much I like the player, and other things into consideration that I won't be specific about so you can't calculate it yourself.

Here are the DBR ratings for this week

Tom Brady 2153475
Brian Hoyer 329585
Ryan Mallette 54968
Tony Romo 3
Mark Sanchez 1

Check back for more of the same next week!
 
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ESPN talked up this QBR thing all summer but never actually gave us a formula for how it is actually calculated (they just said they take things like clutch throws into consideration, etc.)

So I have developed my own DQR (Dan's QB Rating) It takes things like Superbowl championships, how much I like the player, and other things into consideration that I won't be specific about so you can't calculate it yourself.

Here are the DBR ratings for this week

Tom Brady 2153475
Brian Hoyer 329585
Ryan Mallette 54968
Tony Romo 3
Mark Sanchez 1

Check back for more of the same next week!

can you list the DBR for every starting qb?
 
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can you list the DBR for every starting qb?

I can get after that when I'm done with my calc test, but I'll let you know know that not a single non patriot QB is above 15, and QBs like Ben Roethlisberger have lost considerable points for being accused of crimes (you dont even have be tried nevermind convicted for your DBR to be effected.)

Peyton Manning's 2003-04 AFC Championship game DBR is one of the highest ever recorded for a non patriot, with 24
 
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I can get after that when I'm done with my calc test, but I'll let you know know that not a single non patriot QB is above 15, and QBs like Ben Roethlisberger have lost considerable points for being accused of crimes (you dont even have be tried nevermind convicted for your DBR to be effected.)

Peyton Manning's 2003-04 AFC Championship game DBR is one of the highest ever recorded for a non patriot, with 24
Wait, I thought you introduced the DQR, now it's DBR?
 
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can you list the DBR for every starting qb?
I can get after that when I'm done with my calc test, but I'll let you know know that not a single non patriot QB is above 15, and QBs like Ben Roethlisberger have lost considerable points for being accused of crimes (you dont even have be tried nevermind convicted for your DBR to be effected.)

Peyton Manning's 2003-04 AFC Championship game DBR is one of the highest ever recorded for a non patriot, with 24

ha ha

does Aaron Rodgers lose or gain points for that stupid championship belt thing?
 
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I can get after that when I'm done with my calc test, but I'll let you know know that not a single non patriot QB is above 15, and QBs like Ben Roethlisberger have lost considerable points for being accused of crimes (you dont even have be tried nevermind convicted for your DBR to be effected.)

Peyton Manning's 2003-04 AFC Championship game DBR is one of the highest ever recorded for a non patriot, with 24
ha ha

does Aaron Rodgers lose or gain points for that stupid championship belt thing?

Rodgers gained a few points for missing last years game at Foxboro and for denying Roethlisbergers quest towards Tom status, he does however lose a couple points for resembling a husky
 
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ESPN talked up this QBR thing all summer but never actually gave us a formula for how it is actually calculated (they just said they take things like clutch throws into consideration, etc.)
ESPN's total QBR takes into account some subjective things, such as whether an incompletion was overthrown, underthrown, thrown away, spiked or simply dropped. So they have a guy who has to judge each incomplete pass accordingly.

I think QB rating could use an overhaul but ESPN's new stat seems obscenely over-complicated, especially when you consider they have one of their own employees deciding precisely how bad a certain pass was. And here's a quote from PFT demonstrating that even ESPN's brand new wonderful stat has its own flaws:

Rodgers, whose Packers won at the Georgia Dome, completed 26 of 39 passes for 396 yards and two touchdowns. His Total QBR was 82.1.

Tebow, whose Broncos lost at home to the Chargers, completed four of 10 passes for 79 yards and a touchdown. And he ran the ball six times for 38 yards and a touchdown. And his Total QBR was 83.2.
 
well, its not like they can go back and fudge their numbers

whatever happens happens, its all based on their formula

HOWEVER....it would NOT be so quick to report such anomalies as this

Their "formula" is supposedly weighted by 4th qtr stuff for "clutchiness." When you do that you either must include "junk time" stats or be biased as heck and decide one thing is "clutch" but fell short but that other thing is "junk."

In short the QBR is worthless.
 
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ESPN's total QBR takes into account some subjective things, such as whether an incompletion was overthrown, underthrown, thrown away, spiked or simply dropped. So they have a guy who has to judge each incomplete pass accordingly.

I think QB rating could use an overhaul but ESPN's new stat seems obscenely over-complicated, especially when you consider they have one of their own employees deciding precisely how bad a certain pass was.

This isn't true. Yes, they have someone charting each game to record data
that's presently not included in the official play-by-play. That person, however, does not decide "how bad" a pass was. He records things like whether the ball went over the target's head or whether it hit the ground before his feet, whether it was tipped, whether a receiver got one or both hands on it, the number of steps in the QB's drop back, the point on the field where the pass was thrown, etc.

This data is used to weight the change in Expected Points values resulting from the play based on historical data suggesting how much that outcome is dependent on a quarterback vs. receiver. This is calculated by taking every pass of that type and seeing whether there tends to be more variance when you isolate for a quarterback vs. when you isolate for a receiver.

The confusion about the "subjective" data elements resulted from ESPN botching the roll-out of the stat they commissioned, and underestimating the effect that when people don't really understand something, they tend to latch onto certain loaded words or details to form their opinions. The received wisdom that QBR is somehow subjective is similar to the misconceptions regarding the Patriots' use and benefit from the tapes involved in "Spygate."



And here's a quote from PFT demonstrating that even ESPN's brand new wonderful stat has its own flaws:

Rodgers, whose Packers won at the Georgia Dome, completed 26 of 39 passes for 396 yards and two touchdowns. His Total QBR was 82.1.

Tebow, whose Broncos lost at home to the Chargers, completed four of 10 passes for 79 yards and a touchdown. And he ran the ball six times for 38 yards and a touchdown. And his Total QBR was 83.2.

This "flaw" in QBR appears in any 'rate' stat. Shane Lechler had the highest passer rating (and, presumedly, QBR) of the week last Sunday. Similarly, 3rd down backs like Faulk often end up with with higher yards-per-carry averages than their every-down and short-yardage counterparts. If passer rating factored in rushing production, Tebow probably would have edged out Rodgers there, too.

Like any stat, QBR will be more accurate when you have larger and more similar sample sizes.
 
Their "formula" is supposedly weighted by 4th qtr stuff for "clutchiness." When you do that you either must include "junk time" stats or be biased as heck and decide one thing is "clutch" but fell short but that other thing is "junk."

In short the QBR is worthless.

ESPN is worthless. I stopped watching it during spygate.

They should change their name to NYSPN.
 
ESPN talked up this QBR thing all summer but never actually gave us a formula for how it is actually calculated (they just said they take things like clutch throws into consideration, etc.)

Not true. The information has been available on their website all along. The base unit is Expected Points Added (EPA), which is calculated by taking the difference between the average number of points all NFL teams have scored with the ball at that yard line at that down and distance at the begging of the play and the same average at the end of the play.

EPA is then weighted based on a system designed to apportion credit for the outcome to among the QB and his target. This is where it gets a bit complex, but essentially it's calculated by figuring out whether, in that type of play, the outcome varies more from quarterback to quarterback or from receiver to receiver.

The result is then weighted again using Win Probability Added, which ESPN ******edly decided to call "Clutch Index." Win Probability is the historical likelihood a generic team will win the football game based on current score, time remaining, field position, down and distance. Win Probability Added is the difference between WP before and after a given play. WPA has as much to do with score differential as with time remaining, and obviously every game begins tied, and taking an early lead dramatically increases win percentage.

Essentially, a QB's play, both good and bad, will count for more when the game is in contest. This doesn't "reward" QBs for playing in close games if their poor performance early is what kept the game close.
 
Their "formula" is supposedly weighted by 4th qtr stuff for "clutchiness." When you do that you either must include "junk time" stats or be biased as heck and decide one thing is "clutch" but fell short but that other thing is "junk."

In short the QBR is worthless.

As I explained in my post below, and as is explained in various places on ESPN, the 'clutch index' really just describes a system a weighting the QBR's base unit, Expected Points Added, by factoring in Win Probability Added.

Both Expected Points and Win Probability are determined using the outcomes of all 32 NFL teams in similar situations (field position, down, distance to gain in the former, and the same three plus score differential and time remaining in the latter.)

So there's no arbitrary or sudden cutoff for "clutch" or "junk," but rather an objectively-calculated sliding scale over the entire game.
 
That's kind of the point, though, isn't it? If QBR is basically saying the same thing as the old quarterback rating, it's not needed and ESPN can stop trying to browbeat us into pretending that "their" stat is really worth looking at or of any import.

But it isn't saying exactly the same thing as the old quarterback rating.

Passer rating has Eli Manning ranked 3rd, ahead of Fitzpatrick and Brees, while QBR drops him to 10th. Michael Vick is 16th in passer rating, but 7th in QBR, which factors in running. Alex Smith is 8th in passer rating, but 28th in QBR, due to his propensity for taking sacks, and consequently, having his numbers inflated by plays like 10 yard passes on 3rd and 15. And anyway, If there weren't a certain degree of similarity between the two sets of stats, that would actually be a bigger problem. I mean, I'd have serious reservations about a metric that had Brady and Rodgers ranked average and Tarvaris Jackson at the top.

All told, I don't really get your whole mentality regarding QBR that it somehow needs to do something specific to justify its existence. My feeling is 'the more tools the better.' I think it's great that ESPN decided to devote some of its considerable resources to advancing sports statistics, and they really couldn't have picked anyone with a better track record than Dean Oliver to head it up. Yeah, sure, it's unfortunate that ESPN opted to roll it out in its typical over-the-top, barely coherent style, but the only other people handing out money to mathematicians for advanced sports metrics are team owners and managers, and they don't even bother to let the fans know these things exist, let alone share their data.
 
But it isn't saying exactly the same thing as the old quarterback rating.

Passer rating has Eli Manning ranked 3rd, ahead of Fitzpatrick and Brees, while QBR drops him to 10th. Michael Vick is 16th in passer rating, but 7th in QBR, which factors in running. Alex Smith is 8th in passer rating, but 28th in QBR, due to his propensity for taking sacks, and consequently, having his numbers inflated by plays like 10 yard passes on 3rd and 15. And anyway, If there weren't a certain degree of similarity between the two sets of stats, that would actually be a bigger problem. I mean, I'd have serious reservations about a metric that had Brady and Rodgers ranked average and Tarvaris Jackson at the top.

No, they're coming up with pretty much the same thing. A slight difference is insignificant, and the terrible skewing it's done with Smith's rating is actually a good example of it being a complete failure as a measurement, not as an example of a success.

All told, I don't really get your whole mentality regarding QBR that it somehow needs to do something specific to justify its existence. My feeling is 'the more tools the better.' I think it's great that ESPN decided to devote some of its considerable resources to advancing sports statistics, and they really couldn't have picked anyone with a better track record than Dean Oliver to head it up. Yeah, sure, it's unfortunate that ESPN opted to roll it out in its typical over-the-top, barely coherent style, but the only other people handing out money to mathematicians for advanced sports metrics are team owners and managers, and they don't even bother to let the fans know these things exist, let alone share their data.

"The more tools the better" is only really applicable if the tools work and have different purposes. Short of that, having enough is having enough. You don't need to keep 10 identical circular saws if you're just one person doing small projects.

In that same vein, when you're pimping your shiny new QBR, it should be better than what it's theoretically replacing. Unfortunately, ESPN's QBR sucks, because it's failed repeatedly at precisely the things it was supposed to be improving upon.
 
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No, they're coming up with pretty much the same thing. A slight difference is insignificant, and the terrible skewing it's done with Smith's rating is actually a good example of it being a complete failure as a measurement, not as an example of a success.

...

"The more tools the better" is only really applicable if the tools work and have different purposes. Short of that, having enough is having enough. You don't need to keep 10 identical circular saws if you're just one person doing small projects.

In that same vein, when you're pimping your shiny new QBR, it should be better than what it's theoretically replacing. Unfortunately, ESPN's QBR sucks, because it's failed repeatedly at precisely the things it was supposed to be improving upon.[/QUOTE]


You seem to be contradicting yourself. Is there only a "slight difference" between QBR or is there "terrible skewing" going on? Oh, and on what are you basing your contention that QBR's relatively low ranking of Alex Smith is less indicative of his contribution to the 49ers offense than traditional passer rating? You seem to be basing your notion of a metrics "success" or "failure" based on its ability to produce results that conform to your preconceived "gut" sense of how things should rank out. With that reasoning, what's would be the point of any statistical metric at all?

All statistical metrics tell us something. For sure, yards per carry doesn't tell us the whole story of a running back's performance, but it's also not subject to natural cognitive failures like the recency and primacy effects, base rate neglect, anchoring bias, availability heuristic or confirmation bias. So while it could never (and should never) replace your eyeball judgement, if you are able to recognize the particular susceptibilities of each evaluation method, you can synthesize a greater more rounded understanding.

As for QBR vs. Passer Rating, there really should be no competition. The only thing passer rating has going for it is that it came first. Other than that, it's a pretty ridiculous and meaningless construct.

The only four things it takes into account at completion percentage, yards per attempt, and TD and INT percentages. Why these? Because they were the only stats tracked at the time. (Sacks weren't tracked, so throwing the ball away is worse for a QB's passer rating than not feeling backside pressure and getting strip-sacked.) The biggest problem is that, while we can all agree that all four components of passer rating generally indicate a positive effect on a team's likelihood of scoring and winning, passer rating doesn't even attempt to answer the question of their relative weights. In passer rating the importance of completion percentage vs. YPA is completely arbitrary.

Worse yet, the way each component is calculated is normalized to the statistical averages from when it was devised in the 70's. The idea was that an average performance gave you 1 point in the base calculations, and tying a record gave you 2 points, and these numbers were combined and adjusted so that a good performance would be somewhere around 100. So, since at that time, the average completion percentage was 50%, and the season record was 70%, completing 50% of your passes gave you 1 point, and 70% gave you 2 points. Let alone the obvious problems of the fact that these averages have changed, there's also the arbitrary assumption that a record-tying performance was exactly twice as valuable as an average one.

Ultimately, the passer rating stat can't be said to really be a measure of anything, which makes it pretty much useless for anything but decoration. At least something like yards per attempt is a direct measurement of something, not an arbitrary amalgamation of numbers with no thought put in how and why they're combined.

QBR attempts to provide a metric that has the expanded scope of a passer rating but remains a true, weighted, measure of something specific. At its base, QBR is a measurement of a quarterbacks per-play effect on his team's Expected Points values. This is nice, because it avoids the question of how important something like a QB's completion percentage is to scoring touchdowns. Expected Points Added goes directly to the question of how much did that play increase or decrease the amount of points the team is likely to score on that drive.

The next step is to attempt to weight this number according to how much the quarterback had to do with the change in expected points and how much had to do with the receiver or chance. This is where ESPN's resources proved invaluable. They had the manpower to have people go back and track details about plays not included in the play-by-play so that they could then figure out how much these things varied based on different quarterbacks, and this figure was used to 'weight' how much of the EPA the QB is credited or debited with.

For example, the degree to which the yards gained by a completion to a back in the flat varied from QB to QB vs. from RB to RB over the last 5 years is used to determine how much 'credit' for those yards the QB gets. Meanwhile, a QB is likely to get most of the negative EPA for a pick six on a quick out, but not on a pick six thrown to Ed Reed 25 yards downfield.

So now that the QB's EPA is weighted for his position's average contribution to the outcome, it's further weighted based on the difference in Winning Probability before and after the play. This was stupidly called "Clutch Index," but what it really does is provide a smooth gradient with which to weight every change in EPA based on its likelihood of affecting the outcome of the game. Since this is based on historical probability averages, not only is there nothing arbitrary being done, but it also naturally accounts for the relative importance of situations we might not be 100% aware of. For example, if cutting the lead to one score just before the end of the half has historically had a disproportional effect on the team's likelihood of winning, a weighting based on Win Probability Added will factor that in without anyone having to make any decisions about it.

So in the end, unlike passer rating, which can't be said to be a measure of anything, QBR can be neatly summarized as a percentile function of the number of points above the expected league average your QB contributed to, weighted for positional responsibility for the outcome and leverage value.

So not only are there compelling reasons to think it should be more accurate than the arbitrary frankenstein's number that is passer rating, but it also creates a versatile framework for other statistician to build on.
 
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