Former Patriots and "home town" discount

[mgteich]

Wow!!!

The team that started the last two seasons $12M under the cap is managed well?

IMHO, Philly has gone from regular championship games to below .500 precisely because of very POOR cap management. The team had at least $7M in each of the last two years, no counting possible restructurings. That amount easily buys 2-3 top players. Yes, they "lost" players. They chose to neither sign nor replace them.

What team is not???

Look at the Eagles. They have been one of the best cap-managed teams over the past several years. They have gone from a SB contender to a below .500 team. Why?? They lost a few key players.

 

[Miguel]

I thought Dillon may be overpaid at $25 M for 5 years. Do you think any team will offer him that much? Don't get me wrong, I like Corey.

Would a team have paid Dillon $17.5 million over 5 years in the spring of 2005??Given the lack of interest in James and Alexander, I would say no. If the Pats do not sign Dillon to a long-term deal, he is playing on a one-year deal with a $4.5 million cap number. His extension save the Pats $2.5 million on the cap. How would you have freed up $2.5 million after April, 2005??Would you have released Dillon?? If so, who would be the Patriots #1 RB??

Remember that the Pats traded for Starks in March.

It is easy to use 20-20 hindsight to maybe criticize the Patriots' front office. I much rather hear what you would have done instead.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I thought Dillon may be overpaid at $25 M for 5 years. Do you think any team will offer him that much? Don't get me wrong, I like Corey.

I can also name a few more, but I ran the risk of being called a troll .

Are we to presume that Dillon is your best example?

As I'm sure you know the length of contract isn't quite so important as its ratio to the signing bonus - and I think Dillon's was in the neighborhood of $5 million through 2009

Should his production fall towards the end of the contract, surely he will be cut or his contract renegotiated, but a $5 million signing bonus for a guy who rushed for 1600 yards and played a pivitol role in a SB season doesn't strike me as off the charts/overpaid.

In fact, I think a lot of teams would have loved to sign Dillon for that amount - maybe even more.

 

[mikey]

Are we to presume that Dillon is your best example?

As I'm sure you know the length of contract isn't quite so important as its ratio to the signing bonus - and I think Dillon's was in the neighborhood of $5 million through 2009

Should his production fall towards the end of the contract, surely he will be cut or his contract renegotiated, but a $5 million signing bonus for a guy who rushed for 1600 yards and played a pivitol role in a SB season doesn't strike me as off the charts/overpaid.

In fact, I think a lot of teams would have loved to sign Dillon for that amount - maybe even more.

I believe Dillon has a $10M signing bonus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46704-2005Apr12.html


In addition to Dillon, I thought Mike Vrabel did NOT get a "home town" discount when he signed his recent contract. I love Vrabel, but I am not sure if he could get the same deal with another team.

I also thought Kevin Faulk got more than market-value when he signed his contract a few years ago.

The point I want to make is that we have a tendency to OVERESTIMATE the worth of our players. When Rohan Davey was released, his market value was zero. When Troy Brown was a free agent, his market value was miniscule. When Antoine Smith was playing with us, we were paying him millions. When his contract ended, his market value was almost zero.

.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I believe Dillon has a $10M signing bonus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46704-2005Apr12.html

Even better! Actually according to your article it is a 2 year contract extension, not a signing bonus per se, which suggests that not all of the 2 year $10 million is guaranteed - but let's assume it is.

Dillon agreed to a two-year, $10 million extension that will become a five-year deal worth as much as $25 million if the Patriots exercise an option in 2007.

The gamble with a 31 yr old RB is age and wear and tear - the Pats appeased Dillon with what could be construed as a 5 year $25 mil deal, but can cut ties after 2 years at $5 mil a year.

They also saved a few million in cap money on a guy who had just ran for 1600 yards in a season. Not too shabby!

Seems like a win/win to me!

 

[UGAPatsfan]

How is Vrabel not considered a Pro Bowler? Neal? Harrison (when healthy), Givens and Branch play at a pro bowl level they just don't get 80 catches because brady spreads the wealth. Light is a pro bowl tackle when healthy, Miller should have made the Pro Bowl and lets not forget Tedy. We have plenty of pro bowl talent, they just don't get the votes from the fans because the Pats are "Boring Team".

I do not believe Matt Light is a pro bowler. Walter Jones, Ogden those are pro bowlers and light is not even in the same class.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I do not believe Matt Light is a pro bowler. Walter Jones, Ogden those are pro bowlers and light is not even in the same class.

He's certainly not in the same salary stratosphere - which is why I think both of those guys get a lot of attention - but for me, a LT is measured on whether he keeps is QB healthy, prevents sacks, and gives him enough time to throw.

Those voting in the Pro Bowl will probably never recognized Matt Light - you are correct - but he's not that far off from those guys the way I measure production.

 

[Miguel]

Wow!!!

The team that started the last two seasons $12M under the cap is managed well?

IMHO, Philly has gone from regular championship games to below .500 precisely because of very POOR cap management. The team had at least $7M in each of the last two years, no counting possible restructurings. That amount easily buys 2-3 top players. Yes, they "lost" players. They chose to neither sign nor replace them.

You can't replace a McNabb, Owens, Westbrook, Hank Fraley, Tra Thomas. and Lito Shepard during the season. That's 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room NOT playing for the Eagles.

No team in the NFL can afford to have 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room not playing for them. Imagine the Patriots without Harrison, Light, Seymour and Brady.

 

[Miguel]

I believe Dillon has a $10M signing bonus.
The point I want to make is that we have a tendency to OVERESTIMATE the worth of our players. When Rohan Davey was released, his market value was zero. When Troy Brown was a free agent, his market value was miniscule. When Antoine Smith was playing with us, we were paying him millions. When his contract ended, his market value was almost zero.

But your point is not valid for all of the players. Some Patriots players did give the Patriots a discount (Colvin, Bruschi, Gorin, Hochstein). Those 4 players could have all gotten better deals. Ty Law was released and this board was full of predictions that his career was over and that he would be lucky to get a big payday. Well, Ty Law made close to $6 million this year. If anything, this board underestimated Ty Law's worth.

Dillon did not get a $10 million signing bonus.
He got a $3 million signing bonus this year along with a $1 million salary.
Next he is due a $3 million salary and a $3 million option bonus. If the Patriots do not pay the option, Dillon's 2006 salary is then increased to $6 million and becomes guaranteed.

What would you have done with Dillon??

 

[DaBruinz]

You can't replace a McNabb, Owens, Westbrook, Hank Fraley, Tra Thomas. and Lito Shepard during the season. That's 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room NOT playing for the Eagles.

No team in the NFL can afford to have 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room not playing for them. Imagine the Patriots without Harrison, Light, Seymour and Brady.

Miguel - The Pats had five guys out who are top starters in Bruschi, Seymour, Light, Dillon and Harrison. By my counts, those 5 account about 14 million in cap space.

When a team like the Eagles isn't spending 12 million, they have a better chance of replacing the injuries than do a team with less than 2 million in cap space.

 

[skri65]

What does it say about our players when former players like David Patten is a big disappointment with the Redskins and that the Redskins' resurgence came after Patten was deactivated.

Just look around the league. Former Pats players like Woody, Andruzzi, and Smith are disppointments playing for losing teams. Nobody picked up Rohan Davey until Cards recently. And Troy Brown hardly received any FA offer.

Which leads me to question if we are "overpaying" many of the players. We keep bringing up "home town discount", but the reality is that many of these players may be getting paid more than what they could get from other teams.

The fact is that the Patriots now have one of the highest payrolls in the league, much higher than the Colts. But the team is still very dependent on very few key players like Brady. Which means that many in the supporting casts are getting more than their market value.

.

They are getting paid a lot because they work perfectly in OUR system. Surely, they may stink in others, as Patten has showed...but I for one believe they deserve the money their getting as long as they are helping the patriots be as succesful as they currently are. They are getting paid that much because we NEED them.

 

[mgteich]

Nobody suggested replacements during the season.

Imagine this season if the pats decided to dump an additional $10M, without much restructuring at the beginning of the season.

I prefer our system. If you believe that Philly is stronger by not signing three additional $2M-$3M net cap players and by not playing TO, you are certainly free to have that position.

I DO believe that Philly could be in the playoffs with three to four top players. They could have had an additional wide receiver or two, a running back and defensive lineman.

You can't replace a McNabb, Owens, Westbrook, Hank Fraley, Tra Thomas. and Lito Shepard during the season. That's 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room NOT playing for the Eagles.

No team in the NFL can afford to have 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room not playing for them. Imagine the Patriots without Harrison, Light, Seymour and Brady.

 

[Miguel]

I prefer our system. If you believe that Philly is stronger by not signing three additional $2M-$3M net cap players and by not playing TO, you are certainly free to have that position.

While you are certainly free to distort my position, please allow me to repeat what I ACTUALLY said. I said that the Eagles "have been one of the best cap-managed teams over the past several years."

That statement is consistent with what has been widely written over the past few years about Joe Banner and Andy Reid.

 

[Miguel]

Miguel - The Pats had five guys out who are top starters in Bruschi, Seymour, Light, Dillon and Harrison. By my counts, those 5 account about 14 million in cap space.

Are you equating $25 million with 14 million?The last time I checked Seymour, Dillon, and Bruschi are not on IR. Are you contending that if the Patriots had $25 million of cap space on IR (4 Pro Bowlers) that they would still be a SB contender?? My main point is that every team has a few key players on it and if those few key players go on IR during the season that team will not do well. In the Eagles' case they lost 7 starters from Game 1.

When a team like the Eagles isn't spending 12 million, they have a better chance of replacing the injuries than do a team with less than 2 million in cap space.

My main point is that every team has a few key players on it and if those few key players go on IR during the season that team will not do well. In the Eagles' case they lost 7 starters (4 of them Pro-Bowlers) from Game 1. The Eagles have 17 players on IR/NFI/PUP.

When a team enters the season well under the cap, they have the ability to extend key players like a Westbrook or Akers. The Eagles already have 57 players signed for the 2006 season.

 

[Miguel]

Nobody suggested replacements during the season.

Well, if the Eagles did not have 7 starters from Game 1 on the sidelines, then the Eagles would not need any replacements.

IMO, the Eagles would not be 6-9 if McNabb, Shepard, Westbrook, Fraley, and Tra Thomas were all playing.

You are using 20-20 hindsight. Joe Banner and Andy Reid did not have that luxury in the spring of 2005.

 

[Miguel]

When a team like the Eagles isn't spending 12 million, they have a better chance of replacing the injuries than do a team with less than 2 million in cap space.

Please name a player picked up during the middle of the season who has gotten a big contract. I can't recall any. I'm willing to bet $$$ that close to 100% of the players signed during the season to replace an injured player signs a contract that pays him the minimum for his years of experience. As long as a team has enough money to sign replacement players, having more than enough is not going to help them.

 

[Ring 6]

It seems to me the point is if they had spend the additional cap $$ across the roster, they would have been in better shape to handle the injuries.
I agree once the season started extra cap room wouldnt help, but they could have had better depth, or better starters at the healthy positions if they spent up to the cap.

 

[mgteich]

Miguel,

So, you believe that it was right for the owner to pocket $10M instead of using the cap money to buy the very best team they could at the time.

That is my cap philsophy; I though it was yours also.

Perhaps Kraft should pocket $10M instead of signing backups or a couple of additional top players.

Well, if the Eagles did not have 7 starters from Game 1 on the sidelines, then the Eagles would not need any replacements.

IMO, the Eagles would not be 6-9 if McNabb, Shepard, Westbrook, Fraley, and Tra Thomas were all playing.

You are using 20-20 hindsight. Joe Banner and Andy Reid did not have that luxury in the spring of 2005.

 

[Miguel]

It seems to me the point is if they had spend the additional cap $$ across the roster, they would have been in better shape to handle the injuries.
I agree once the season started extra cap room wouldnt help, but they could have had better depth, or better starters at the healthy positions if they spent up to the cap.

The Eagles made it to the NFC championship game 4 straight years and to the Super Bowl last year. But they should have changed their modus operandi in the spring of 2005. That is truly the power of 20-20 hindsight.

 

[Miguel]

Miguel,

So, you believe that it was right for the owner to pocket $10M instead of using the cap money to buy the very best team they could at the time.

The Eagles' owner did not pocket the $10M. The Eagles have a history of extending players during the season. This year they extended Westbrook and Akers.