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Former Patriots and "home town" discount

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mikey, Dec 25, 2005.

  1. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    What does it say about our players when former players like David Patten is a big disappointment with the Redskins and that the Redskins' resurgence came after Patten was deactivated.

    Just look around the league. Former Pats players like Woody, Andruzzi, and Smith are disppointments playing for losing teams. Nobody picked up Rohan Davey until Cards recently. And Troy Brown hardly received any FA offer.

    Which leads me to question if we are "overpaying" many of the players. We keep bringing up "home town discount", but the reality is that many of these players may be getting paid more than what they could get from other teams.

    The fact is that the Patriots now have one of the highest payrolls in the league, much higher than the Colts. But the team is still very dependent on very few key players like Brady. Which means that many in the supporting casts are getting more than their market value.

    .
  2. drew4008

    drew4008 Rookie

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    If they succeed in our system, they deserve fair market value. Who knows if Manning would work on another team, or if Alexander or LJ would do anything without their great OLs, but regardless, they're going to get big contracts for what they do in their systems.
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :trolls: As the team starts playing better, you just can't help backsliding into troll status.
  4. shatch62

    shatch62 Rookie

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    Not home town discount...just correct salary

    The Pats put a dollar amount on a player (or position) and pay that amount. They don;t go crazy and over pay.

    As for disappointments, I think Patten has to be considered one but Andruzzi and Smith are not. Andruzzi has helped Cleveland get a running game. Cleveland has not had a 1,000+ rusher in something like 20 years. Smith has done well as a back up. In the two years he has been out of NE he has carried the ball 287 times for 1113 yards and 7 TDs. Not Pro Bowl numbers but a lot of times would take that from their #2 back.

    Most of the guys that have left the Pats were older guys that had already had their best years. Washington, Milloy, Patten etc were all 30ish or older. The only guys that were "young" were Andruzzi and Woody and the Pats don't like to tie a lot of $ up in O-linemen.
  5. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I am not trying to sound like a "troll", as a previous poster is trying to insinuate.:D

    Just asking what I thought is a legitimate question.

    I am trying to reconcile that fact that we have one of the highest payrolls in the NFL, yet we only have 2 legitimate Pro Bowlers.

    .
  6. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Insinuate nothing, if you could see the games from under the bridge you'd know our talent is as good or better then most teams, and slightly underpaid by comparison.
  7. desi-patsfan

    desi-patsfan Rookie

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    you dont base how good a player is by the number of pro bowls he goes to do you? How many has Rodney gone to? He is/was one fo the best SS in the game? Mike VIck is a pro bowler and did nothing. Mark Brunell had a much better year and didnt make the pro bowl.
  8. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How is Vrabel not considered a Pro Bowler? Neal? Harrison (when healthy), Givens and Branch play at a pro bowl level they just don't get 80 catches because brady spreads the wealth. Light is a pro bowl tackle when healthy, Miller should have made the Pro Bowl and lets not forget Tedy. We have plenty of pro bowl talent, they just don't get the votes from the fans because the Pats are "Boring Team".
  9. Willie55

    Willie55 Rookie

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    2 pro-bowlers = 3 Super Bowl Rings.

    I dont care if these guys never get picked up by another team after they leave New England as long as he brings another championship here.
  10. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I think what you're noticing says a lot about the best teams finding the "right" players for their team... players that fit in the locker room, players that fit into the scheme of the team

    when you select your team like BB and SP do, the sum of the whole truly is greater than the parts

    That's not to say these former Patriots can't find the same thing elsewhere, but its tough to do and it absolutely takes time

    For example - Andruzzi - Romeo scooped him up precisely because of his leadership, experience and locker room presence, hoping he would be an example for the rest of the team to follow

    But Crennel doesn't have the luxury of replacing his entire team in one year, so it is understood that the impact of Andruzzi's presence might not be felt for quite sometime - indeed, the tone Andruzzi sets for the rest of the line might not be fully felt until after he is gone or retired
  11. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    The probowl is a complete joke. If any of the Patriots get there...then fine I guess. But it isn't an accurate choice by the people who decide it.

    I would rather have a superbowl ring anytime.

    ...is Ron Mexico really going to be in the probowl? That would explain everything right there.
  12. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    I've always thought Pro Bowls are too often crap and Mike Vick is a good example. While Patten wasn't doing much in Washington, most years he was a Patriot, they didn't have much else to throw too which made him more valuable here. I think some ex-Pats have done pretty well. Woody is the Lions best OL, as someone else said, Andruzzi has helped the Browns have a run game, A Smith has done about what he did here when he's played, both TW and Bobby Hamilton have played well for the Raiders, although TW has been hurt. Milloy hasn't done any worse than he did his last year here and Law played pretty well considering the injury he had. Wiggins has become a better TE with the Vikings.
    And there are some FA's the Patriots have picked up that haven't panned out as well as they'd looked with other teams either. BB and Pioli have done very weell over the years with FA's and the draft. But, they haven't been perfect either.
  13. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I also think what your noticing seems to bear out that the Patriots "spread the wealth" of spending to the cap by the way the middle 1/3 tier of players are paid.
  14. drew4008

    drew4008 Rookie

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    I don't believe it. Brady is not a "system QB".
  15. billikens

    billikens Rookie

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    It's because the Patriots don't tend to buy high or low, but get the middle priced players. Thus few superstars (although I'd throw Vinatieri into the mix) but a lot of solid football players, allowing us more depth than most teams. For instance, how would have Indy done after losing Harrison and James at the same time (we had Dillon, Faulk, Pass, Givens out all at once)? So while we have few superstars, we have few weak links either. That works with Belichick's system, which requires teamowrk not super-human effort from one or two positions. And this has allowed us to perform at high levels while suffering significant injuries the past few years, and even clinch division this year.

    Does that answer your question?
  16. patman52

    patman52 Rookie

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    What does the amount of pro bowlers have to do with salary cap management. you have to pay 53 good players to field a team not 5 or 6 pro bowlers.
  17. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Please name these overpaid players. It is rather easy to pick out players on IR (Starks, Poole). BB and Pioli did not have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight as your post does.
  18. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What team is not???

    Look at the Eagles. They have been one of the best cap-managed teams over the past several years. They have gone from a SB contender to a below .500 team. Why?? They lost a few key players.
  19. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I thought Dillon may be overpaid at $25 M for 5 years. Do you think any team will offer him that much? Don't get me wrong, I like Corey.

    I can also name a few more, but I ran the risk of being called a troll :D.


    .
  20. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No guts no glory. :trolls: :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2005
  21. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wow!!!

    The team that started the last two seasons $12M under the cap is managed well?

    IMHO, Philly has gone from regular championship games to below .500 precisely because of very POOR cap management. The team had at least $7M in each of the last two years, no counting possible restructurings. That amount easily buys 2-3 top players. Yes, they "lost" players. They chose to neither sign nor replace them.


  22. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Would a team have paid Dillon $17.5 million over 5 years in the spring of 2005??Given the lack of interest in James and Alexander, I would say no. If the Pats do not sign Dillon to a long-term deal, he is playing on a one-year deal with a $4.5 million cap number. His extension save the Pats $2.5 million on the cap. How would you have freed up $2.5 million after April, 2005??Would you have released Dillon?? If so, who would be the Patriots #1 RB??

    Remember that the Pats traded for Starks in March.

    It is easy to use 20-20 hindsight to maybe criticize the Patriots' front office. I much rather hear what you would have done instead.
  23. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Are we to presume that Dillon is your best example?

    As I'm sure you know the length of contract isn't quite so important as its ratio to the signing bonus - and I think Dillon's was in the neighborhood of $5 million through 2009

    Should his production fall towards the end of the contract, surely he will be cut or his contract renegotiated, but a $5 million signing bonus for a guy who rushed for 1600 yards and played a pivitol role in a SB season doesn't strike me as off the charts/overpaid.

    In fact, I think a lot of teams would have loved to sign Dillon for that amount - maybe even more.
  24. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I believe Dillon has a $10M signing bonus.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46704-2005Apr12.html


    In addition to Dillon, I thought Mike Vrabel did NOT get a "home town" discount when he signed his recent contract. I love Vrabel, but I am not sure if he could get the same deal with another team.

    I also thought Kevin Faulk got more than market-value when he signed his contract a few years ago.

    The point I want to make is that we have a tendency to OVERESTIMATE the worth of our players. When Rohan Davey was released, his market value was zero. When Troy Brown was a free agent, his market value was miniscule. When Antoine Smith was playing with us, we were paying him millions. When his contract ended, his market value was almost zero.

    .
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2005
  25. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Even better! Actually according to your article it is a 2 year contract extension, not a signing bonus per se, which suggests that not all of the 2 year $10 million is guaranteed - but let's assume it is.
    The gamble with a 31 yr old RB is age and wear and tear - the Pats appeased Dillon with what could be construed as a 5 year $25 mil deal, but can cut ties after 2 years at $5 mil a year.

    They also saved a few million in cap money on a guy who had just ran for 1600 yards in a season. Not too shabby!

    Seems like a win/win to me!
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2005
  26. KDPpatsfan

    KDPpatsfan Rookie

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    I do not believe Matt Light is a pro bowler. Walter Jones, Ogden those are pro bowlers and light is not even in the same class.
  27. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    He's certainly not in the same salary stratosphere - which is why I think both of those guys get a lot of attention - but for me, a LT is measured on whether he keeps is QB healthy, prevents sacks, and gives him enough time to throw.

    Those voting in the Pro Bowl will probably never recognized Matt Light - you are correct - but he's not that far off from those guys the way I measure production.
  28. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can't replace a McNabb, Owens, Westbrook, Hank Fraley, Tra Thomas. and Lito Shepard during the season. That's 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room NOT playing for the Eagles.

    No team in the NFL can afford to have 4 Pro Bowlers and over $25 million in cap room not playing for them. Imagine the Patriots without Harrison, Light, Seymour and Brady.
  29. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But your point is not valid for all of the players. Some Patriots players did give the Patriots a discount (Colvin, Bruschi, Gorin, Hochstein). Those 4 players could have all gotten better deals. Ty Law was released and this board was full of predictions that his career was over and that he would be lucky to get a big payday. Well, Ty Law made close to $6 million this year. If anything, this board underestimated Ty Law's worth.

    Dillon did not get a $10 million signing bonus.
    He got a $3 million signing bonus this year along with a $1 million salary.
    Next he is due a $3 million salary and a $3 million option bonus. If the Patriots do not pay the option, Dillon's 2006 salary is then increased to $6 million and becomes guaranteed.

    What would you have done with Dillon??
  30. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Miguel - The Pats had five guys out who are top starters in Bruschi, Seymour, Light, Dillon and Harrison. By my counts, those 5 account about 14 million in cap space.

    When a team like the Eagles isn't spending 12 million, they have a better chance of replacing the injuries than do a team with less than 2 million in cap space.

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