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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by jays52, Jan 27, 2012.

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  1. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    It's no secret that the most impactful FA acquisition since Randy Moss has been playing lights out. According to Pro Football Focus, Brian waters has allowed a whopping total of 12 pressures in the entire season. Further, he did not allow a single pressure in seven of 18 total games he has played this season. With the majority of Superbowl hype coming down to the Patriots O Line vs the Giants D Line this is a major...well, story line.

    There is a lot of concern regarding this matchup, and somewhat rightfully so, but the Giants defense doesn't scare me. I think part of this concern is from the game that shall not be named, but in this game the Patriots are playing with the best offensive line they have ever assembled. Pass rush gets a lot of hype, as do pressure defenses. Make no mistake, pressure defenses are highly effective against passing offenses but they have one fatal flaw. If you get them blocked, you will eat them alive. The Giants are a little unique in that they get there with less players and place more defenders in coverage, but they don't have the personnel in back of the D-Line that other great defenses have. Be it the 46, The Rex Ryan 34, or The Dick LeBeau zone blitz, all pressure defenses are easily carved if you can block them. When your biggest concern is maybe getting Logan Mankins a little help you are in a very nice place. In 2007, the Giants D matched up against the Patriots O better than any. In 2011, the Patriots O matches up against the Giants D better than any.

    The biggest concern is not the line vs line, it is how the Patriots will play the slot corner. More on that later, though.
  2. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    [​IMG]
  3. cavtroop

    cavtroop Rookie

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    Im more worried about our RT situation than I am Mankins.
  4. makoute

    makoute Rookie

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    That was the case in the game that shall not be named. The problem was actually blocking them. They actually might have been worse at the back of their defense in that game.
  5. Gronkandez

    Gronkandez Rookie

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    Someone is going to comment that Randy Moss wasn't a FA, and that he was acquired in a trade....

    Now that we have that out of the way, those are nice stats regarding B. Waters (despite the credibility of the source.) I'm hoping Solder cleans up his mistakes from last week.

    After watching the Ravens tape I feel confident about the Pats rush which will help the seconday, however the pass defense is still my biggest concern.
  6. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    Looking forward to the "more on that later" part.
  7. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    To be fair, their stats seem to be fine. It's their analysis of said stats that sucks hardcore.
  8. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Apparently it is or at least was a secret over on ESPN courtesy of KC Joiner...

    Considering the last time out that guy was named kaczur I'm not.

    And if I recall the game some of you can't name and still haven't rewatched, the Giants had a lot more depth in the front 4 and were rotating well until we went to hurry up and gassed (not to mention rattled into a 12 men on the punt team penalty) them for the go ahead score. Young Tuck was one of those rotational players that night. Now he's a veteran starter. They got some talent, just not sure they got the depth as witnessed in their early and mid season performances when they were dealing with injuries. We have a lot more depth as well as bulk and size and athletitism on our OL these days that we had then, too. Once Neal went out we were generally screwed, and that game was no exception other than Mankins was simultaneously having the roughest outing of his career and bull rushers were always Koppen's achilles heel. Then of course there are the weapons, of which we have more that are also more versatile.
  9. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    OL Now vs then

    LT - (age)
    RG 0 (could be + given career bad game)
    OC -
    RG ++ (Neal OUT most of game)
    RT ++

    Skill Players
    QB 0
    RB ++
    Slot 0
    WR --
    TE ++
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2012
  10. cavtroop

    cavtroop Rookie

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    Im only concerned in that Vollmer, even if healthy, hasn't played in weeks, and Solder let up some inside pressure last game. Not a ton - there is no question our OL is in much better shape this time around.
  11. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    From what I've seen of Solder all season, he tends to get beat on a move he hasn't seen before but quickly adapts.
  12. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, one of the biggest talking points has been either implicitly or explicitly that the Giants defensive line will dominate the Patriots offensive line just like they did in 2007, as if nothing whatsoever has changed in four years. But consider some of the obvious changes that most of the media and fans seem oblivious to:

    RG: Brian Waters > Russ Hochstein
    RT: Either Vollmer or Solder > Nick Kaczur
    TE: Gronkowski, Hernandez and Solder > a 36-year old Kyle Brady and Ben Watson

    The targets for Brady to throw the ball to are probably better overall and more able to get open, even without Randy Moss; consider the top four WR/TE targets:
    2007: Welker, Moss, Gaffney, Watson
    2011: Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Branch


    I am sure there will be some plays where the Giants win the individual battles and will be able to apply pressure to Brady. I disagree however with those that are proclaiming that the Giants are going to be able to win those battles on virtually every down, and be able to apply pressure on every passing play. I don't follow the logic of those that reach that conclusion.
  13. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Kevin Garnnett?:eek::D

    Also to the OPs point are passing attack in 07 was very much downfield which plays into a good pass rush this year we get the ball out much quicker than the back then.
  14. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    FWIW, I actually think that C is a + relative to 2007. I'm no expert on the matter, though.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2012
  15. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think many of us want to see Kevin Garnett opening running lanes for Law Firm. :singing:
  16. PatsGirl2011

    PatsGirl2011 Rookie

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    I would take the 2007 WRs over this yeasr, but I would take the OL from this year over 2011.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  17. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Perhaps, but to make it a fair comparison let's compare all the pass receivers from each squad rather than strictly focusing on only the WR position.

    One team had the following:
    a) 122 receptions, 1569 yards, 9 TD
    b) 90 receptions, 1327 yards, 17 TD
    c) 79 receptions, 910 yards, 7 TD
    d) 51 receptions, 702 yards, 5 TD

    The other team had this:
    a) 112 receptions, 1175 yards, 8 TD
    b) 98 receptions, 1493 yards, 23 TD
    c) 46 receptions, 697 yards, 3 TD
    d) 36 receptions, 449 yards, 5 TD




    Personally I'm more inclined to take the first choice, which happens to be the 2011 Patriots wide receivers and tight ends, rather then the second unit, which is the 2007 group.

    As for the OL I agree; as mentioned earlier there is no comparison. Waters over Hochstein and either Vollmer or Solder over Kaczur.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  18. West Philly Patriot

    West Philly Patriot Rookie

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    I don't know how anyone can even compare the WR corps, in the words of Lebron James "that's like comparing Jay-z to Soulja boy" so let's just look at the overall weapons this year vs. '07.

    Randy Moss and Gronk cancel each other out. Both had record breaking seasons and were virtually uncoverable for the better parts of the season.

    Welker pre knee injury> Current Welker.
    Gaffney > every remaining WR on roster
    Hernandez > Ben Watson
    Faulk then> Faulk now
    BJGE> Lomo
    Stallworth> every remaining WR on the roster. Shockingly Stallworth actually had better numbers than Gaffney.
    Ridley> Sammy Morris
  19. West Philly Patriot

    West Philly Patriot Rookie

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    The 1st problem is you left off Ben Watson and his nearly 400 receiving yards and 6 TD's. The second would be Kyle Brady's 2 TD's.

    I like the variety of the 1st choice but it's hard to argue less production. The '07 team simply out produced this team when it comes to the totality of receiving numbers.

    Edit - If u add ocho he and kyle brady cancel each other out but the 07 team still has the edge in scoring the football.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  20. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What do you base that on?
    Did you miss the comment above?
    2011 Welker: 122 receptions, 1569 yards, 9 TD
    2007 Welker: 112 receptions, 1175 yards, 8 TD


    2011 Branch: 51 receptions, 702 yards, 5 TD
    2007 Gaffney: 36 receptions, 449 yards, 5 TD


    No kidding.


    Comparison should be '07 Faulk to '11 Woodhead, though I do agree that the '07 Faulk is preferable.


    Yep


    Moot point. Gaffney had replaced Stallworth at that point. Rarely if ever are any of these people getting on the field.


    Morris went on IR earlier that year, but regardless it's irrelevant.
  21. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    Thanks Jay for providing some "meat" to discuss and pass the time. I think the "experts are really missing some of the match ups that make the so call advantage the Giant DL has over our OL smaller than its perceived, And they are ignoring or forgetting to look at what seems to be a growing advantage of our DL over their OL.

    Here are a few points to back that up

    1. The Pats have played 8 games this season against the top 10 pass rushing teams and have allowed just 13 sacks.

    2. They seem to have ignored that against the the 16th ranked pass defense in the league (SF) the Giants gave up 7 sacks and 20 QB hits, while the greatest Manning of all time managed to amass a completion rate of 54% and an underwhelming 5.4 yards per attempt.

    3. They seem to have forgotten or ignored that during the playoffs the Pats DL has more sacks per game than the Giants. WHY isn't anyone questioning how the Giants OL who essentially FAILED in the NFCCG, will match up with a Pats DL that is rushing the passer as well as any team in the playoffs

    4.I think we are WAY ahead in the interior OL. Waters has been EMMENCE. Connolly is much better suited to set the middle than the smaller Koppen.

    5. The real questions come on how well the two tackles will fair, Light and Solder. Here are some thoughts to consider.
    a. For some reason, Light is playing his best football. He has gone against some of the best rushers in the league and has bested them all. Just look at the Suggs match up. The best defensive player in the league was stoned by Light to the point they moved him over to Solders side. So I'm fine with the Matt Light of 2011, he's playing at a much higher level than the Matt Light of 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007. At least from my eyeball test, this is his best year ever.
    b. The Giants beat Kacsur and Volmer a couple of time to the outside. I have yet to see someone beat Solder on an outside speed rush. His feet are that quick and his arms are so long. Where he HAS been beaten is on inside moves. Plus he's the most likely of all the guys on the OL to make a mistake vs a Giants blitz or stunt,

    5, Everyone is suddenly touting the Giants run game, like they've been killing people all season, ignoring the fact they were the worst rushing team in the league during the regular season. But its interesting to note that the Pats are rushing the ball slightly better than the Giants this post season completely, and this is completely ignored by the so called experts.

    Summary - At some point the focus is coming to be put on the match ups between the OL/DL of both teams. At some point people are going to look at the facts of the current OL and also start to recognize how well the Pats DL has elevated THEIR game.

    One Troubling Thought: This game is being played on turf and in a neutral sight. That combination will favor Giants DL who rely on quickness and acceleration, both things that are enhance by artificial turf.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  22. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I did not include Watson or Kyle Brady because I focused on the four primary targets.

    Eleven players on the field minus five offensive linemen, the quarterback and a running back leaves four potential receivers - whether they be tight ends or wide receivers. That's why I limited the comparison to the four top producing players. Beyond that doesn't matter a whole lot unless there is an injury.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  23. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    to the OP, ill take the center situation this year over 07

    also, receiver options are better this year than 07....

    this is because the two groups are quite comparable, but the diversity provided by a TE option over a WR option will allow you to give the edge to a TE with the same production as a WR

    btw, welker NOW is much better than welker ANY OTHER TIME
  24. West Philly Patriot

    West Philly Patriot Rookie

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    O ok. I thought you were listing all Wide receivers and TE's overall.
  25. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    On NFL Network, more specifically NFL All Access I watched Willie McGinest, Solomon Wilcotts and Brian Billick give the Giants the edge in the following categories;

    Defense - Giants
    Offense - Giants
    Coaching - Giants

    I'm a bright pink colored fairy wearing a tiara if the Giants have the edge on offense and coaching. Hell, even the defense is questionable given the performances of both in the playoffs.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  26. West Philly Patriot

    West Philly Patriot Rookie

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    I have a ton of respect for Tom Coughlin and I think he and BB are on the short list for Best coaches in the league but..................


    [​IMG]
  27. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    Believe me, my computer didn't enjoy the cup of tea it received.
  28. byfuglien

    byfuglien Rookie

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    They survived the Chase Blackburn 12 men penalty. That drive went to 4th and 13 or whatever it was, and they stopped us.

    The go ahead TD was on a 'clean' drive.
  29. byfuglien

    byfuglien Rookie

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    Wow, seriously? Even coaching? I'm shocked Willie would say that.
  30. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Great observation. I remember seeing their linemen cramping up on the sidelines from rushing every play.
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